In view of the recent Ranji matches..

[Show_stopper]

The Ranji Trophy games, to my knowledge, haven't been telecasted until recently. I mus say though what i have seen disappoints me greatly..so much so to the extent that I don't think the National players should be selected on this basis anymore!! Guys like Badri average close to 60 and Kulkarni averages 17 per wicket! Also regarding the pace bowling department..i can't remember a youngster who made it to the team on the basis of stellar Ranji Trophy performances. It seems to me new bowlers are sought when the current crop have been currently injured and every random bowler who has a little bit of pace or has a flash in the pan 5-fer in the BP XI Vs visiting team game is fast-tracked into the team.I really do wonder if thats not such a bad move now after having been a constant critic of that policy. Will not sending all the Team India prospects as Ind 'A' abroad and then assessing their performances be better off? Alternatively couldn't we have a system where Ranji performances are a necessary condition but not sufficient?

[Lord]

i think they r send to abroad tours.

[msb1991]

The Ranji Trophy games, to my knowledge, haven't been telecasted until recently. I mus say though what i have seen disappoints me greatly..so much so to the extent that I don't think the National players should be selected on this basis anymore!! Guys like Badri average close to 60 and Kulkarni averages 17 per wicket! Also regarding the pace bowling department..i can't remember a youngster who made it to the team on the basis of stellar Ranji Trophy performances. It seems to me new bowlers are sought when the current crop have been currently injured and every random bowler who has a little bit of pace or has a flash in the pan 5-fer in the BP XI Vs visiting team game is fast-tracked into the team.I really do wonder if thats not such a bad move now after having been a constant critic of that policy. Will not sending all the Team India prospects as Ind 'A' abroad and then assessing their performances be better off? Alternatively couldn't we have a system where Ranji performances are a necessary condition but not sufficient?

Agreed that the system is plain wrong but discrediting Badrinath based on the low level of the Ranji Trophy is a mere fallacy as he scored the bulk of his runs in his golden season for India A.

[Show_stopper]

Agreed that the system is plain wrong but discrediting Badrinath based on the low level of the Ranji Trophy is a mere fallacy as he scored the bulk of his runs in his golden season for India A.

Yes thats another problem..if we are to think along those lines,it really begs the questions what are the Rohits,Rainas and Kohlis doing out there? People talk about them being talented but "has not yet produced the goods in Ranji Trophy". Isn't that plain wrong? I mean why are we wasting away their youth in hope that they will top the batting charts when its obvious they don't particularly respect level of competition out there(and they are justified in doing so) when,in the first place,the whole point of denying them a spot in the National team is lack of temperament/tendency to throw away the wicket etc.? They are never gonna improve that by playing any of these..

[triam]

Yes thats another problem..if we are to think along those lines' date='it really begs the questions what are the Rohits,Rainas and Kohlis doing out there? People talk about them being talented but "has not yet produced the goods in Ranji Trophy". Isn't that plain wrong? I mean why are we wasting away their youth in hope that they will top the batting charts when its obvious [b']they don't particularly respect level of competition out there(and they are justified in doing so) when,in the first place,the whole point of denying them a spot in the National team is lack of temperament/tendency to throw away the wicket etc.? They are never gonna improve that by playing any of these..

Completely disagree with the bolded part above, you play who are you are put against, if they are so good they should just start pulverizing the opposition as opposed to getting out ducks (which is what Raina did today against TN). This is just belittling other young guys like pujara and rahane etc who do the hard work, we dont need prima donnas who think ranjis are beneath them. For better or worse that is THE premier domestic tournament. Although I do agree something needs to be done about the wickets as they now plain suck.

[cowboysfan]

i think we have some quality depth in batting to replace our test stars.hopefully they are able able to get some experience abroad befolre making their debut.

[Show_stopper]

Completely disagree with the bolded part above' date=' you play who are you are put against, if they are so good they should just start pulverizing the opposition as opposed to getting out ducks (which is what Raina did today against TN). This is just belittling other young guys like pujara and rahane etc who do the hard work, we dont need prima donnas who think ranjis are beneath them. For better or worse that is THE premier domestic tournament. Although I do agree something needs to be done about the wickets as they now plain suck.[/quote'] You misunderstood..i'm not saying that is how it should be but was merely pointing out that is how it is and also telling how it is hard argue against that.. I hope the difference is clear to you. And Raina scored 39 not a duck.The same as Pujara.:--D

[Lord]

You misunderstood..i'm not saying that is how it should be but was merely pointing out that is how it is and also telling how it is hard argue against that.. I hope the difference is clear to you. And Raina scored 39 not a duck.The same as Pujara.:--D

KAIF scored a duck:((

[triam]

You misunderstood..i'm not saying that is how it should be but was merely pointing out that is how it is and also telling how it is hard argue against that.. I hope the difference is clear to you. And Raina scored 39 not a duck.The same as Pujara.:--D

Haha, my point is for better or worse this is the only place we can evaluate the youngsters.

[Holysmoke]

Ranji performances need to be taken with a pinch of salt, and they are. Otherwise we would still see Debhashish Mohanty and Sunil Joshi near the Indian team.

[fineleg]

raina rocks, Ur right in stating - Ranji should be a necessary condition but not sufficient. Prospects should be sent on India-A tours to play in away conditions with teams like SA-A, Aus-A, SL-A... Also, include the prospects in warmup matches with visiting teams - and have couple of warmup matches per series if possible. Then make selections based on consistent performances in these matches. Though watching the current crop perform, I doubt if we will get any consistent fast bowling performances (or spin!!!). Bowling bench strength is cra.ppy!!! As an example, Expected better from folks like D. Kulkarni and P. Chawla, R. Jadeja, L. Balaji. All these bowlers disappointed. Maybe a wicket here or there - but no consistency in a crucial semifinal.

[Chandan]

Agreed that the system is plain wrong but discrediting Badrinath based on the low level of the Ranji Trophy is a mere fallacy as he scored the bulk of his runs in his golden season for India A.

There is no discrediting him from the runs he scored in the Ranji tournament. But they simply cannot be the sole criteria of choosing a player for the international team. A good and talented player doesn't merely ride on one golden season. Those India A matches were played IN India against a considerably weak SA A attack which was led by Langeveldt. I don't think Badri has done that wonderfully outside India. The only worthwhile knock that I can think of in a FC match, outside India is 59 runs against the pace trio of Tait, Johnson and Watson in the Top End series at Cairns. Scorecard But that good knock was undone last year the way he he faced the pace of Tait and other Australian bowlers. Anyone watching that match could have instantly said how afraid this guy was of those pacy deliveries! Unfortunately, Badri's time has gone. But what does it say about our domestic competition? Do players do well just because of form and are completely devoid of class? Well, I don't want to generalize, but that seems to be the case. Stellar Ranji performers, who do not get chance in international side, are mostly average players who seem to have tremendous years because of golden form.

[msb1991]

There is no discrediting him from the runs he scored in the Ranji tournament. But they simply cannot be the sole criteria of choosing a player for the international team. A good and talented player doesn't merely ride on one golden season. Those India A matches were played IN India against a considerably weak SA A attack which was led by Langeveldt. I don't think Badri has done that wonderfully outside India. The only worthwhile knock that I can think of in a FC match, outside India is 59 runs against the pace trio of Tait, Johnson and Watson in the Top End series at Cairns. Scorecard But that good knock was undone last year the way he he faced the pace of Tait and other Australian bowlers. Anyone watching that match could have instantly said how afraid this guy was of those pacy deliveries! Unfortunately, Badri's time has gone. But what does it say about our domestic competition? Do players do well just because of form and are completely devoid of class? Well, I don't want to generalize, but that seems to be the case. Stellar Ranji performers, who do not get chance in international side, are mostly average players who seem to have tremendous years because of golden form.

You are mistaken, he scored runs in Africa against Zimbabwe and Kenya in FC cricket. He also scored runs in the Emerging Players Tournament in Australia.

[Chandan]

Scoring runs against Zim and Kenya is hardly an achievement. Those sides are not better than even Delhi or UP side. And as far as I know Emerging Players' tournament was that of 50 over format only. It was not of FC matches.

[msb1991]

Emerging Players was 50 overs but I didn't know we were talking exclusively about potential for Test cricket. Zimbabwe and Kenya are probably the same standard as a good Ranji Trophy side but the importance that it is runs outside India.

[Chandan]

msb, I'm discussing about Badri's potential as a future test player, on the basis of his Ranji exploits. Remember that Ranji is a FC tournament and hence my points are for the longer format only. If Badri will come in tests, his technique again quality pace bowlers seems highly unconvincing and they will be exposed even more so when he'll visit places which aid swin and seam bowling. In such a scenario, how can you have faith in a player like him--- just on the basis of his Ranji exploits or runs against the sides outside India which are not better than a FC side themselves?

[msb1991]

msb, I'm discussing about Badri's potential as a future test player, on the basis of his Ranji exploits. Remember that Ranji is a FC tournament and hence my points are for the longer format only.

I gets ya. Ironic as one of my pet hates is people utilising FC performances for ODI exploits and naturally, vice versa.

If Badri will come in tests, his technique again quality pace bowlers seems highly unconvincing and they will be exposed even more so when he'll visit places which aid swin and seam bowling. In such a scenario, how can you have faith in a player like him--- just on the basis of his Ranji exploits or runs against the sides outside India which are not better than a FC side themselves?

The fact is that judging a batsman on technique is extremely unreliable as batsmen who to the untrained eye have poor techniques such as Sehwag, Ganguly or Dhoni can be perfectly successful. It begs to be asked, if not on Ranji performances, then how to best judge talent. The BCCI favour the U19 players in some sort of horrible system which partially excludes those who are late bloomers or were not scouted early enough - creating some sort of class divide, among other things. Badrinath is a slow starter, it would seem, and as shown in his few ODI exploits but OD cricket was never his strength and so this cannot be used against him (if we ignore my comment about the Emerging Players Tournament which was an error on my behalf). Furthermore, a batsman possessing poor technique early in the innings is no reason to discount a player afterall, Ricky Ponting is notoriously poor early in his innings but due to practice and form, has managed to battle through that period unharmed for the majority of his career.

[Chandan]

The fact is that judging a batsman on technique is extremely unreliable as batsmen who to the untrained eye have poor techniques such as Sehwag, Ganguly or Dhoni can be perfectly successful. It begs to be asked, if not on Ranji performances, then how to best judge talent. The BCCI favour the U19 players in some sort of horrible system which partially excludes those who are late bloomers or were not scouted early enough - creating some sort of class divide, among other things. Badrinath is a slow starter, it would seem, and as shown in his few ODI exploits but OD cricket was never his strength and so this cannot be used against him (if we ignore my comment about the Emerging Players Tournament which was an error on my behalf). Furthermore, a batsman possessing poor technique early in the innings is no reason to discount a player afterall, Ricky Ponting is notoriously poor early in his innings but due to practice and form, has managed to battle through that period unharmed for the majority of his career.

You saw him playing against Tait and co vs Australia A last year? He was simply afraid to face the bowler or that is how it looked to me and people watching the match with me. Hence my conclusion about Badri's time having already passed. But I can be be wrong. He is still in the test squad. If he gets a chance, I hope he proves me wrong.

[msb1991]

You saw him playing against Tait and co vs Australia A last year? He was simply afraid to face the bowler or that is how it looked to me and people watching the match with me. Hence my conclusion about Badri's time having already passed. But I can be be wrong. He is still in the test squad. If he gets a chance, I hope he proves me wrong.

Unfortunately, the series was not aired in England so I couldn't watch it. However, I am strongly against judging a batsmen upon watching an innings in which he did not perform well as the fact that he has scored runs has shown he does not always bat like that. This does not discredit your argument at all, but is my reasoning for being stringently against such analysis.

[Chandan]

Unfortunately' date=' the series was not aired in England so I couldn't watch it. However, I am strongly against judging a batsmen upon watching an innings in which he did not perform well as [b']the fact that he has scored runs has shown he does not always bat like that. This does not discredit your argument at all, but is my reasoning for being stringently against such analysis.

But this is also a fact that he doesn't face quality bowling whenever he bats well. Wonder how will you settle that argument!!