As good as Zak and Ishant are..

[riya]

Srinath was a quality bowler . Quite underrated mainly because of his attitude.He never had that aggression in his attitude.Nevertheless bowled so many brilliant spells. I don't believe we can compare Ishant with him at this stage . Let him finish his career . Zaheer was not better than Srinath in the early career in tests .Srinath was brilliant in English county matches too.

[Fontaine]

If he is such a complete bowler why does he average just 30 over the last couple of years. He has got talent, no doubt. He didn't do much against SL (in tests) and overall, he hasn't done enough to be called the best (or the most complete) fast bowler in the world. That's why I say he is overrated. Anyway, I've hogged this thread a bit too much...over and out.

He was just coming back into the team after 4-5 months being off due to a heel injury and Dumble only went with 4 bowlers. And it's not just me saying this, Tony Greig, Wisden among others have said he's one of the best bowlers around. As for the complete part? Name me another bowler in the last two years that has been able to swing the ball both ways, seam it beautifully and reverse swing it for months in the subcontinent? The only thing he lacks is out and out speed. As for the average? You're joking right. You do realize that the likes of Steyn has played almost HALF of his test sinces 2006 against minnows like NZ, WI and Bangladesh in two series? In the same time frame Zaheer had only faced one minnow side in Bangladesh and he tore them apart picking up 7 wickets.

[Lurker]

He was just coming back into the team after 4-5 months being off due to a heel injury and Dumble only went with 4 bowlers. And it's not just me saying this, Tony Greig, Wisden among others have said he's one of the best bowlers around. As for the complete part? Name me another bowler in the last two years that has been able to swing the ball both ways, seam it beautifully and reverse swing it for months in the subcontinent? The only thing he lacks is out and out speed.

The only thing that Zaheer Khan lacks is International competition. As of today look at what other teams have on offer: England - Sidebottom/Stuart/Harmisson West Indies - Powell/Collymore etc Australia - Johnson/Lee South Africa - Steyn/Ntini Pakistan - Gul/Asif Sri Lanka - Malinga/Vaas Of all these only SL and South Africa would compare with their team of 90s. SL being marginally better, SA marginally worse(I rate Donald-Pollock combo ahead of Ntini/Steyn). Srinath showed his strength against McGrath, Gillespie, Waqar, Wasim, Akhtar, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock. Heck even Gaugh and Caddick were better than Sidebottom and Harmisson. So yes Srinath did perform alongside a class group of peers while ZK doesnt have that kind of challenge. Still that can he hardly his fault. xxx

[fineleg]

if any one can remember the first tour we made to SA, you would agree that Srinath was breathing fire and was the fastest bowler in the series, according to the keeper(Kiran More?). The south africans were surprised that he was not selected for the first 2 tests. I agree that Brett Shultz was generating acute bounce and raw pace with his left handed action,and Allan Donald was in his first full series as a test bowler of top pace, but Srinath surprised every one with his pace and carry.it is a pity that he was not selected in favour of the other 2 batting allrounders(yes, Kapil and Prabhakar were doing just that in 1990's) .He was not guided by the seniors like the way Imran mentored Wasim and Waqar. I am an admirer of kapil but Kapil did all kind of wrong things to ensure no one develops in to a better bowler. When india toured Pak under srikkanth, R.Mohan has written that Kapil once went to Pakistan nets and insinuated that Manoj Prabhakar chucks the bouncer. similarly i have heard first hand info from TA Shekar, who was definitely couple of yards faster than Kapil and played in the same team in a test against Pak and an one day series in india against England in 1984 just before the B&H cup, that Kapil was livid with him, when Javed Burki, ex.pak captain appreciated his pace and offered to recommend him to a few counties in England. Kapil also spoilt Raju Kulkarni's career, never gave him enough opportunities. Binny was another one who suffered due to Kapil not allowing Binny to bowl in tests when he was captain. at least after Kapil, there is lot of positive developments in unearthing/grooming seamers in India, MRF helped a lot with their academy.Professionalism played a part in BCCI setting up academies.but spin bowling has taken a back seat.

Rajan, Regarding the highlighted portion, I've heard of the above (second hand story from another local cricketer who knows TA Shekar, not from TAS like you heard directly). I was not sure earlier whether or not to believe it, but given that you have also heard of it, now I think I believe that story. Atleast TA Shekar did what he could to help other yengsters later on. Its really sad that Kapil (a great bowler, no doubt) came in the way of other Ind bowlers' development.

[Fontaine]

The only thing that Zaheer Khan lacks is International competition. As of today look at what other teams have on offer: England - Sidebottom/Stuart/Harmisson West Indies - Powell/Collymore etc Australia - Johnson/Lee South Africa - Steyn/Ntini Pakistan - Gul/Asif Sri Lanka - Malinga/Vaas Of all these only SL and South Africa would compare with their team of 90s. SL being marginally better, SA marginally worse(I rate Donald-Pollock combo ahead of Ntini/Steyn). Srinath showed his strength against McGrath, Gillespie, Waqar, Wasim, Akhtar, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock. Heck even Gaugh and Caddick were better than Sidebottom and Harmisson. So yes Srinath did perform alongside a class group of peers while ZK doesnt have that kind of challenge. Still that can he hardly his fault. xxx

Zaheer is the third highest wicket taking left arm pace bowler in the history of cricket. The only pacers higher than him are Vaas and Akram and I would rate Zaheer better than Vaas. There is a very good reason why it's so rare and hard to find a good left armer and a lot of it has to do with coaching. There was an excellent article about this recently in cricinfo. When Zaheer retires he'll go down as one of the greatest left arm fast bowlers in the history of the game.

[Lurker]

Zaheer is the third highest wicket taking left arm pace bowler in the history of cricket. The only pacers higher than him are Vaas and Akram and I would rate Zaheer better than Vaas. There is a very good reason why it's so rare and hard to find a good left armer and a lot of it has to do with coaching. There was an excellent article about this recently in cricinfo. When Zaheer retires he'll go down as one of the greatest left arm fast bowlers in the history of the game.

Now see thats not a convincing argument at all. Left armers are rare but that doesnt mean one of top wicket takers would be rated as one of the best. I mean both Alan Davidson and Bill Voce have less wickets than Zaheer and I would certainly put Davidson ahead of Zaheer and maybe Voce in the same category. As for comparison with Vaas thats an interesting one. I dont like Vaas as such and I do like Zaheer but there isnt that much to choose between them as far as I am concerned. In all fairness Vaas is more seasoned campaigner while Zaheer might very well be riding his peak as we speak.

[riya]

if any one can remember the first tour we made to SA, you would agree that Srinath was breathing fire and was the fastest bowler in the series, according to the keeper(Kiran More?). The south africans were surprised that he was not selected for the first 2 tests. I agree that Brett Shultz was generating acute bounce and raw pace with his left handed action,and Allan Donald was in his first full series as a test bowler of top pace, but Srinath surprised every one with his pace and carry.it is a pity that he was not selected in favour of the other 2 batting allrounders(yes, Kapil and Prabhakar were doing just that in 1990's) .He was not guided by the seniors like the way Imran mentored Wasim and Waqar. I am an admirer of kapil but Kapil did all kind of wrong things to ensure no one develops in to a better bowler. When india toured Pak under srikkanth, R.Mohan has written that Kapil once went to Pakistan nets and insinuated that Manoj Prabhakar chucks the bouncer. similarly i have heard first hand info from TA Shekar, who was definitely couple of yards faster than Kapil and played in the same team in a test against Pak and an one day series in india against England in 1984 just before the B&H cup, that Kapil was livid with him, when Javed Burki, ex.pak captain appreciated his pace and offered to recommend him to a few counties in England. Kapil also spoilt Raju Kulkarni's career, never gave him enough opportunities. Binny was another one who suffered due to Kapil not allowing Binny to bowl in tests when he was captain. at least after Kapil, there is lot of positive developments in unearthing/grooming seamers in India, MRF helped a lot with their academy.Professionalism played a part in BCCI setting up academies.but spin bowling has taken a back seat.

What ? Kapil told pakistanis that Prabhakar chucks .But i heard Imran whining about it after karachi ODI 1989.If Dev did that poor stuff . Yes Srinath was quite quick in that SA series.His best came in 96 series .They both performed brilliantly as a pair(Srinath and Prasad). Srinath developed his skills mainly due to MRF and county stint.

[riya]

Zaheer is the third highest wicket taking left arm pace bowler in the history of cricket. The only pacers higher than him are Vaas and Akram and I would rate Zaheer better than Vaas. There is a very good reason why it's so rare and hard to find a good left armer and a lot of it has to do with coaching. There was an excellent article about this recently in cricinfo. When Zaheer retires he'll go down as one of the greatest left arm fast bowlers in the history of the game.

As for the numbers he may be the third highest .But from what i read and other expert opinions .Alan Davidson > Zaheer Khan.

[Fontaine]

Now see thats not a convincing argument at all. Left armers are rare but that doesnt mean one of top wicket takers would be rated as one of the best. I mean both Alan Davidson and Bill Voce have less wickets than Zaheer and I would certainly put Davidson ahead of Zaheer and maybe Voce in the same category. As for comparison with Vaas thats an interesting one. I dont like Vaas as such and I do like Zaheer but there isnt that much to choose between them as far as I am concerned. In all fairness Vaas is more seasoned campaigner while Zaheer might very well be riding his peak as we speak.

Zaheer is in his peak form but I was illustrating a point that statistically he's right up there. If you want to compare him to other bowlers like Donald etc then you also have to factor in that Donald/Pollock played half there tests at home and probably had much better coaching etc from a young stage compared to the fast bowlers here 10-15 years ago that were pretty much told at club/FC stage to just take the shine off the ball for the spinners. And Zaheer's development bears that out. Spending one year when he was 26 in English County Cricket allowed him to learn so much more and he came into his peak after that. If he had that kind of training from a young stage then he would undoubtedly have been hitting his peak much earlier.

[Guest whineleg]

I dont think that is neccessarily true. Maybe it is because I belong to Ian Chappell's school of thought that once you have made it to International cricket you are responsible for your actions. Your skills might be honed but there is little chance you would learn new skills, which seems to be the argument here. Kapil Dev as an individual was a fighter. John Woodcock, in his book 100 Greatest cricketers, mentions how Kapil affected more games with his performance than any other players. I wouldnt be surprised if Kapil expected his team members to be a fighter as well. He won 1983 not by chance but because of this aspect of his personality. He dared to pick Madan Lal from second string XI in England then won the series in 86. Quite possible he didnt enjoy players who gave anything less than 100%. In this sense he would be no different than say Sachin Tendulkar whose captaincy was greatly affected by the fact that his team would let down. Now I leave it up to you to judge if Sachin was a terrible captain and hence his team flopped OR if Indian team flopped so miserably that Sachin Tendulkar comes across as a terrible captain. Two perspective of the same issue. xxx

Lurker, Regarding the highlighted portion in bright pink color, I've heard of the above (second hand story from another local cricketer who knows Kapil, not from WoodenCock like you heard directly). I was not sure earlier whether or not to believe it, but given that you have also heard of it, now I think I believe that story because I myself am not sure of anything because I also dont know anything abt cricket. Atleast Kapil did what he could to help other yengsters later on but I dont know anything abt this so I will accept what you say about his perf. Its really sad that Kapil (a great bowler, no doubt) came in the way of other Ind bowlers' development, everyone in this thread has said this and Salil has said this before also so I will just copy them and state the obvious like I am doing now because I am not sure abt it myself

[punjabi_khota]

Lurker, Regarding the highlighted portion in bright pink color, I've heard of the above (second hand story from another local cricketer who knows Kapil, not from WoodenCock like you heard directly). I was not sure earlier whether or not to believe it, but given that you have also heard of it, now I think I believe that story because I myself am not sure of anything because I also dont know anything abt cricket. Atleast Kapil did what he could to help other yengsters later on but I dont know anything abt this so I will accept what you say about his perf. Its really sad that Kapil (a great bowler, no doubt) came in the way of other Ind bowlers' development, everyone in this thread has said this and Salil has said this before also so I will just copy them and state the obvious like I am doing now because I am not sure abt it myself

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Hail the saviour whineleg. :hatsoff:

[fineleg]

what now - Kapil also is someone who one should only praise and TA Shekar is nobody so screw his issues he had with the legend, according to predator/gambit...? LOL! Now he takes whineleg avatar for this also. :hatsoff:

[graphic23]

I dont think that is neccessarily true. Maybe it is because I belong to Ian Chappell's school of thought that once you have made it to International cricket you are responsible for your actions. Your skills might be honed but there is little chance you would learn new skills, which seems to be the argument here. Kapil Dev as an individual was a fighter. John Woodcock, in his book 100 Greatest cricketers, mentions how Kapil affected more games with his performance than any other players. I wouldnt be surprised if Kapil expected his team members to be a fighter as well. He won 1983 not by chance but because of this aspect of his personality. He dared to pick Madan Lal from second string XI in England then won the series in 86. Quite possible he didnt enjoy players who gave anything less than 100%. In this sense he would be no different than say Sachin Tendulkar whose captaincy was greatly affected by the fact that his team would let down. Now I leave it up to you to judge if Sachin was a terrible captain and hence his team flopped OR if Indian team flopped so miserably that Sachin Tendulkar comes across as a terrible captain. Two perspective of the same issue. xxx

I agree with Ian Chappell, and therefore with you, ideally. But a bowler as shrewd/awesome/great/whatever-else-adjective as Shane Warne himself learned a LOT from Ian Chappell (he has said this quite often), and from Allan Border. Perhaps not how to bowl but how to play the game at that level and what sort of an attitude you ought to have, etc. I am a great fan of Kapil because of his perseverence and absolute commitment to the team but I still think that he could have helped out Srinath more than he did. My dad, who still thinks Kapil Dev is India's greatest cricketer, said that it is unclear what was going on between '92-'94 where he was trying to break Hadlee's record and so many people were criticizing him for holding up Srinath's place in the team. I don't know how to come to a conclusion with this (and whatever conclusion I do reach will be incomplete because of no first-hand knowledge), through deduction, it is clear that he was unhappy with Srinath pushing for his place in the team [perhaps as competition or perhaps because he felt after all he'd given to the team, he deserved something back]. With regards to Sachin's captaincy, the problem was not that he was a poor captain but as you point out that he expected everyone to put in the same effort he does (not a bad expectation at all) and when they didn't, he had problems. And I think he expected perfection from his bowlers [ or at least a desire in them to strive towards perfection and they were unable to deliver properly]. Then, I have heard that Azhar openly made comments about Sachin not being good enough to captain India, etc. In any case, here, I think that man-management skills should've come into play and I don't think (as much as I do worship Sachin) he had the skills to do.

[flamy]

Atul Sharma will PWN them all.

[Fontaine]

Now see thats not a convincing argument at all. Left armers are rare but that doesnt mean one of top wicket takers would be rated as one of the best. I mean both Alan Davidson and Bill Voce have less wickets than Zaheer and I would certainly put Davidson ahead of Zaheer and maybe Voce in the same category. As for comparison with Vaas thats an interesting one. I dont like Vaas as such and I do like Zaheer but there isnt that much to choose between them as far as I am concerned. In all fairness Vaas is more seasoned campaigner while Zaheer might very well be riding his peak as we speak.

Another thing. I've never watched guys like Davidson and Voce bowl in great detail except for stuff like documentaries etc. And frankly I don't really give a damn about them. You know why? Because the difference between bowling in that era where batsmen were hopping around, scared clueless because of a spell of hostile fast bowling with a lot of bouncers, and now is like night and day. I also know if these same bowlers were bowling at batsmen with full padding, helmets then instead of intimadating batsmen with short balls, they would be hooked and pulled for boundaries. You know statistically what the difference is between say a 23 average in those days and a 30 average now? A tailender pulling you for four or some other average batsmen doing it without fear. I have however watched very good fast bowlers like Flintoff, ZK bowl effective bouncers only to be hooked and pulled by clueless batsmen for boundaries because there is nothing to fear. You want to put Davidson etc ahead of Zaheer? Go right ahead, that's your opinion. But before you do, think about Zaheer bowling a short quick bouncer to some batsmen without a helmet and sufficient padding and then make up your mind.

[Ram]

Lurker, Regarding the highlighted portion in bright pink color, I've heard of the above (second hand story from another local cricketer who knows Kapil, not from WoodenCock like you heard directly). I was not sure earlier whether or not to believe it, but given that you have also heard of it, now I think I believe that story because I myself am not sure of anything because I also dont know anything abt cricket. Atleast Kapil did what he could to help other yengsters later on but I dont know anything abt this so I will accept what you say about his perf. Its really sad that Kapil (a great bowler, no doubt) came in the way of other Ind bowlers' development, everyone in this thread has said this and Salil has said this before also so I will just copy them and state the obvious like I am doing now because I am not sure abt it myself

I take a bow...!! The vocabulary, the writing (non)style, the punctuation, the pauses... everything exactly same as the mentor! :cantstop:

[Lurker]

Lurker, Regarding the highlighted portion in bright pink color, I've heard of the above (second hand story from another local cricketer who knows Kapil, not from WoodenCock like you heard directly). I was not sure earlier whether or not to believe it, but given that you have also heard of it, now I think I believe that story because I myself am not sure of anything because I also dont know anything abt cricket. Atleast Kapil did what he could to help other yengsters later on but I dont know anything abt this so I will accept what you say about his perf. Its really sad that Kapil (a great bowler, no doubt) came in the way of other Ind bowlers' development, everyone in this thread has said this and Salil has said this before also so I will just copy them and state the obvious like I am doing now because I am not sure abt it myself

:hysterical::hysterical: saala gussa bhi nahin karte banta hai. That was hilarious Mr. Pinko :--D

[Lurker]

I have however watched very good fast bowlers like Flintoff, ZK bowl effective bouncers only to be hooked and pulled by clueless batsmen for boundaries because there is nothing to fear. You want to put Davidson etc ahead of Zaheer?

Of course I will. You want to put a bowler who has 197 wickets in 62 Test@34 ahead of another with career stats 186@20.5 in 44 Tests?? And we are not talking of some Golden era player here we are talking of a player who was active till the 60s including the Tied Test. You only have to pull his career record to see the kind of players he was up against. In the very last test he played he matched his skills against the likes of Dexter, Graveney, Barrington, Cowdrey etc etc. You telling me these players did not know how to play bouncers?? These are some of the all time greats for crying out loud. In the Tied test he matched skills against the likes of Conrad Hunte, Sobers, Kanhai, Worrell etc. Comparing players across era is always a dicey thing but to suggest cricket was somehow inferior back then, as you seem to insinuate with bouncers etc, is incorrect. Davidson is an all time great and alongside Wasim Akram would be 1-2 in left arm greatest bowlers list. xx

[Rajan]

it is a fact that Kapil was in the Indian test team solely for the last 20 tests to break the world record.he did not deserve a place in the team as an opening bowler. was operating at less than 120k right thro the test match in NZ, where Stephen Fleming made his debut.kumble was bowling his faster ball around 115k that time. Atul Wassan , Salil Ankola, Vivek Razdan were other faster bowlers, who were certainly couple of yards quicker than Kapil when they bowled in tandem with kapil.Srinath was fire and was in good form but could not break in to Indian test team regularly because Kapil was the obstacle. I am a staunch fan of kapil , he was on par with Ian Botham if not better than Botham till 1983-84 west indies series.after his knee surgery he certainly lost his jump and pace. for some time he lost his out swinger too.he regained it later otherwise he would not have broken Hadlee's world record.

[Fontaine]

Of course I will. You want to put a bowler who has 197 wickets in 62 Test@34 ahead of another with career stats 186@20.5 in 44 Tests?? And we are not talking of some Golden era player here we are talking of a player who was active till the 60s including the Tied Test. You only have to pull his career record to see the kind of players he was up against. In the very last test he played he matched his skills against the likes of Dexter, Graveney, Barrington, Cowdrey etc etc. You telling me these players did not know how to play bouncers?? These are some of the all time greats for crying out loud. In the Tied test he matched skills against the likes of Conrad Hunte, Sobers, Kanhai, Worrell etc. Comparing players across era is always a dicey thing but to suggest cricket was somehow inferior back then, as you seem to insinuate with bouncers etc, is incorrect. Davidson is an all time great and alongside Wasim Akram would be 1-2 in left arm greatest bowlers list. xx

I'm not insinuating anything. On the contrary, I'm being completely fair about how batting has changed. I haven't talked about Davidson's skill etc because as I said I'm not familiar with his bowling and unless you've watched test matches in the 50s/60s you aren't either. You're going by 2nd hand accounts. Yeah, it's nice to have watched some documentaries and read a few books by batsmen from those days etc etc but like I keep saying take the bolwer out of the 50/60s and have him bowl now against fully padded/helmet wearing batsmen. And as far as Cowdrey and other great batsmen not being able to hook and pull? Who the hell is talking about that. I made a very simple point that even tail enders (forget about average batsmen) can hook and pull against top fast bowlers with impunity nowadays. You would have almost never seen that regularily in those times, never mind the greats. But I agree with you, comparing bowlers of different eras shouldn't be done that's why originally I said Zaheer would be ONE of the best but then you came out with a silly statement like Davidson is better or maybe even Voce. What a joke that is. One of the first bowlers to really employ short pitch bouncers on a regular basis and the batsmen were hopping around clueless. Take away that shock factor and he's a nobody.