Lets not forget who started all this…

[Ram]

He didn't have more than 2 noteworthy innings during the series' date=' MM, and it was because of the man with the highest average at the end of the tour, that we ended up winning - hamara kaptain. We had, Dhoni, Gambhir, Sachin leading at the top of the runmaking/average lists while Australia only had Hussey, Clarke, and some other noobs. Yuvraj had only one matchwinning performance, which came against SL.[/quote'] But compared to other ODI series', the CB series was a relatively lean patch for UV.

[The Outsider]

Oh please! Tendulkar, Dhoni, and Sehwag have all done better than Yuvraj and Gambhir at around the same level during the past year or so.

[veer]

We also lost a match against Lanka in the league phase. My point being is, if UV delivers, we just annihilate the opposition. If he does not (which happens rarely), we still manage to win, but but lesser margins.

replace UV with Veeru or Dhoni and you can argue the same thing for them.. these days even Raina and Pathan can do the same thing.. Sriram, honestly, I dont see UV had as great affect on team as Dhoni.. UV has been in team for long time and couldnt change a lot until Dhoni came along.. and lead..

[Ram]

Oh please! Tendulkar' date=' Dhoni, and Sehwag have all done better than Yuvraj and Gambhir at around the same level during the past year or so.[/quote'] Dhoni yes, but Tendulkar? Sachin's role in ODI in the last 15 months has been sporadic at best, due to various fitness issues. And dont bring up Sehwag's name as of yet. He has just started to deliver in the last year or so in ODIs. UV has been our best performer in ODIs for 4-5 yeaes now. Same for Gambhir, let him deliver consistent results for a little while longer and we'll talk.

[Ram]

replace UV with Veeru or Dhoni and you can argue the same thing for them.. these days even Raina and Pathan can do the same thing.. Sriram, honestly, I dont see UV had as great affect on team as Dhoni.. UV has been in team for long time and couldnt change a lot until Dhoni came along.. and lead..

Veer, please dont even compare Yusuf to Yuvraj. And Sehwag's just started delivering in ODIs. In 2006, he could score in ODIs even if someone held a gun to his head.

[The Outsider]

Dhoni yes, but Tendulkar? Sachin's role in ODI in the last 15 months has been sporadic at best, due to various fitness issues. And dont bring up Sehwag's name as of yet. He has just started to deliver in the last year or so in ODIs. UV has been our best performer in ODIs for 4-5 yeaes now. Same for Gambhir, let him deliver consistent results for a little while longer and we'll talk.

We are talking about the last 12-15 months in any case and it is a fact that Yuvraj has been outperformed by several others during this period when we have won a lot. To reiterate what I said earlier our 3 biggest and unprecedented triumphs during the last year in ODIs have been wins in Australia, SL, and NZ - Yuvraj has been poor in all 3, averaging in the teens and twenties.

[Ram]

We are talking about the last 12-15 months in any case and it is a fact that Yuvraj has been outperformed by several others during this period when we have won a lot. To reiterate what I said earlier our 3 biggest and unprecedented triumphs during the last year in ODIs have been wins in Australia' date=' SL, and NZ - Yuvraj has been poor in all 3, averaging in the teens and twenties.[/quote'] I am NOT talking about the last 15 months, but the last 4-5 years. Yuvraj has been the rock thats held our batting together in that time. The CB series and the Lanka in early 2008 were only two series that UV did not make a significant contribution in. Dont include NZ in that list. Yuvraj was one of the architects of our win in the 3rd ODI, but for him, we would have never made 393. And in the 4th ODI, he couldnt make a difference because he did not bat all. But how conveniently you have forgotten his MoS winning performances against Pakistan, South Africa, England and Sri Lanka. No other Indian player has won so many MoS in ODI series' in the last 48 months.

[punjabi_khota]

Dhoni has stopped playing the explosive innings, his role has changed now.

[graphic23]

Dhoni yes, but Tendulkar? Sachin's role in ODI in the last 15 months has been sporadic at best, due to various fitness issues. And dont bring up Sehwag's name as of yet. He has just started to deliver in the last year or so in ODIs. UV has been our best performer in ODIs for 4-5 yeaes now. Same for Gambhir, let him deliver consistent results for a little while longer and we'll talk.

I'm sorry. What? Sachin's record since June 1st, 2007:

filtered 	41 	1837 	163* 	47.10 	2 	5 	2/10 	57.00 	0 	14 	0 	

His career average is 44.37, and he's averaged 47.10 at the top of the order for the "past 15 months". Since June 1st, we've played: 1. Ireland in Ireland, One match - 4 runs 2. SA in Ireland, Man of the Series 200 runs in 3 matches, 99 , 93 , 8 - scores in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd ODIs. 3. England in England - Terrific series, India's highest run getter 374 runs in 7 matches at an average of 53.42 (including 2 90s) 4. Australia in India - 7 ODIs, again India's highest run getter 278 runs with an average of 39.71 with the highests score of 79 5. Pakistan in India - Amazing Series 259 runs at an average of 51.80 (Yuvraj outperformed him here - scored 272 runs at an average of 68). The shots that he played in the 3rd match in his 97 on November 15th will never be forgotten. 6. Australia CB Series - Do I even have to mention this? But I will: 399 runs in 10 matches at an average of 44.33 with the highest score of 117* (and a 91 in the 2nd Final) After this, he did not participate in matches such as the Kitply Cup and the Asia Cup, and the subsequent bilateral series against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka. He played England in 2 matches. Scored 11 in one and 50 in the next 7. 61 runs at an average of 30.50 (obviously) 8. Played the 1st 3 matches against SL in SL and was dismissed by the umpire all 3 times. 9. The present series, where he averages the small matter of 122 in 3 matches with a 61 and 163. Please tell me how this translates as Sporadic. In fact, if anything, Yuvraj's form has been "sporadic" in this time. While I agree with you that he has induced aggressive intent into our middle order (along with our captain), your statements have been exaggerations. 1,2,3: Yuvraj did well in Ireland against SA and England. 4: Again, did ok in a few matches. 5. Was the Man of the Series here 6. Failed quite miserably. 7. Again, was found out against spin 8. Was Man of Series 9. Again, did well, and failed on a pitch that seamed a bit. I'm a fan of Yuvraj too but your statements about how he has been the "most consistent" ODI matchwinner above the likes of Dhoni and Sachin are exaggerations and hyperbole. And don't forget, Dhoni was the man with the highest average at the end of the CB Series with 61 (!) and we are calling him a FTB here at ICF. He is ranked the #1 ODI player for a reason. And both Sachin and Dhoni have been playing Tests alongside all these performances whereas Yuvraj has had that off. I know we are comparing only ODI performances in the past 15 months, but as a value to India, both Dhoni and Sachin, and now Sehwag have been more important to India's success - I'm sorry to say that.

[Ram]

Graphic, I never did question the role of either Dhoni or Sachin. The only person I have qualms against being mentioned in the same vein as Yuvraj is Sehwag, not because he isnt good enough (he's clearly, our best batsman currently), but because he only now starting contribute consistently, while Yuvraj has been the lynchpin of our batting since 2004. And Why have you quoted Sachin's performance in ODI last in the 20 months? I certainly did not contest his importance. If anything, I've clearly said that since his ODI credentials were doubted since 2007 WC, he responded with one of his best years in ODI and I still maintain that. And check the wording I've used to describe Sachin's ODI performance in the last 15 months - 'Sporadic, due to various fitness issues' And as you yourself have pointed out, within the last one year, Sachin has missed three whole series (Asia Cup, Kitply cup, series against Lanka) and played a reduced role in the series against England. Of that 4 series, we won two of them, mainly due to Yuvraj (his 100s in the first ODIs against England was the difference b/w the two teams.). He tamed Mendis against Lanka. Unfortunately, he missed out on two important matches (Kitply cup and Asia cup). Yet, we were the dominant team of those tournaments (even though Sachin was not there).

[graphic23]

Graphic, I never did question the role of either Dhoni or Sachin. The only person I have qualms against being mentioned in the same vein as Yuvraj is Sehwag, not because he isnt good enough (he's clearly, our best batsman currently), but because he only now starting contribute consistently, while Yuvraj has been the lynchpin of our batting since 2004.

I may agree about Sehwag but for someone who bats like him, he's been awesome for the past 8 months. Amazingly consistent. But I still detest your argument that Yuvraj has been our lynchpin since 2004 - but only to a certain extent. I won't say that Sachin has because much as I'd like, he didn't do well by his standards between 2005-06 (despite the 141 against WI and other knocks) and obviously int he World Cup - injuries or otherwise. And this might be a subjective and arguable opinion, but I think it is inaccurate to say that Yuvraj has been a lynchpin - if anything, the middle order a whole (read MS Dhoni) has done well and Rahul Dravid was consistent during the time until the WC. The team's ODI form wasn't anywhere as consistent as it is today, and whenever we did win, it can be attributed to the middle-order as a whole and not any single person.

And Why have you quoted Sachin's performance in ODI last in the 20 months? I certainly did not contest his importance. If anything, I've clearly said that since his ODI credentials were doubted since 2007 WC, he responded with one of his best years in ODI and I still maintain that. And check the wording I've used to describe Sachin's ODI performance in the last 15 months - 'Sporadic, due to various fitness issues'

True, but I wanted to make a case that Yuvraj hasn't been as effective in our victories as you claim him to be by showing you how well Sachin's performed in the series that we've won.

And as you yourself have pointed out, within the last one year, Sachin has missed three whole series (Asia Cup, Kitply cup, series against Lanka) and the series against Lanka.

Fine.

Of that 4 series, we won two of them, mainly due to Yuvraj (his 100s in the first ODIs against England was the difference b/w the two teams.). He tamed Mendis against Lanka. Unfortunately, he missed out on two important matches (Kitply cup and Asia cup). Yet, we were the dominant team of those tournaments (even though Sachin was not there).

Yuvraj's knock in the 2nd match was far better because we were 24/3 or something like that, and went to 292. But apart from that match, the starts that Sehwag provided were extremely crucial in setting the tone to the middle-order. You may contest it. But thats what I feel. I'm really proud of the way he played in Sri Lanka and that too against Mendis - it warrants praise, and you've given it to him. I wholeheartedly agree. I think my issue with what you're saying is that it is giving Yuvraj too much credit (I'm not saying he doesn't deserve any) but by saying that he's been our lynchpin, and that he's been the #1 matchwinner, etc. isn't fair to the other players who've done equally well or even better (Gambhir scored 440! runs in CB Series, and to be fair, we didn't give him as much credit as he deserved).

[Ram]

I may agree about Sehwag but for someone who bats like him' date=' he's been awesome for the past 8 months. Amazingly consistent. But I still detest your argument that Yuvraj has been our lynchpin since 2004 - but only to a certain extent. I won't say that Sachin has because much as I'd like, he didn't do well by his standards between 2005-06 (despite the 141 against WI and other knocks) and obviously int he World Cup - injuries or otherwise. And this might be a subjective and arguable opinion, but I think it is inaccurate to say that Yuvraj has been a lynchpin - if anything, the middle order a whole (read MS Dhoni) has done well and Rahul Dravid was consistent during the time until the WC. The team's ODI form wasn't anywhere as consistent as it is today, and whenever we did win, it can be attributed to the middle-order as a whole and not any single person. [/quote'] Fine, if you have a problem with me calling Yuvraj the 'lynchpin' of our batting since 2004, tell me one another who has been. Guys like Ganguly and Dravid dont qualify because they ceased to play ODI cricket since late 2007. Dhoni made his international debut in 2006, Sehwag was dreadfully out of form in 2006. Sachin's form was patch leading up to the WC and since late middle 2008, his fitness has been unreliable. Gambhir has been outstanding since late 2007, but was hardly a presence till 2004 to then onwards. So that leaves only with Yuvraj. And unlike the other players, for the same period (2004- present), there's no prolonged period of time where you could call Yuvraj performance in ODIs as under-par, either due to form or fitness.

True, but I wanted to make a case that Yuvraj hasn't been as effective in our victories as you claim him to be by showing you how well Sachin's performed in the series that we've won. I think my issue with what you're saying is that it is giving Yuvraj too much credit (I'm not saying he doesn't deserve any) but by saying that he's been our lynchpin, and that he's been the #1 matchwinner, etc. isn't fair to the other players who've done equally well or even better (Gambhir scored 440! runs in CB Series, and to be fair, we didn't give him as much credit as he deserved).

Of course Yuvraj cant be our match-winner in all the matches we win, its impossible for that to happen. But since 2005 onwards (which is when our first golden run started, under Chappell), Yuvraj has won more MoS than any other Indian player. Off the top of my head alone, I can recollect alteast 6 such awards (against South Africa, Pakistan and England in 2005-06, against Pakistan in Nov 2007 and against Lanka and England in 2008-09.) I doubt if ANY international player, let alone Indian player has actually won SIX MoS awards in bilateral ODIs series in the last 4 years. And lets not forget the T20 award too.

[Mr. Wicket]

Dhoni made his international debut in 2006

Wrong. He made his test debut in late 2005, and his ODI debut a year before that. In fact in 2005 he averaged almost 50 with the bat, with a strike rate of over 100 while producing two of the best ODI hundreds I've seen.

[Ram]

Wrong. He made his test debut in late 2005, and his ODI debut a year before that. In fact in 2005 he averaged almost 50 with the bat, with a strike rate of over 100 while producing two of the best ODI hundreds I've seen.

My bad, I should have said '2005', not '2006. And I wouldnt say he made his his international debut 'a year before 2005', for the pure reason that it was Dec 2004 that he played his first game. So, for all practical purposes, he made his debut in 2005.

[Mr. Wicket]

I said he made his international debut 'a year before that' (meaning late 2005), which is correct. Check the exact quote, and compare with what you misquoted ('a year before 2005').

[Ram]

I said he made his international debut 'a year before that' (meaning late 2005)' date=' which is correct. Check the exact quote, and compare with what you misquoted ('a year before 2005').[/quote'] And I did not contend with that at all. As far as I am concerned, I will just consider that Dhoni made his debut in 2005.

[Sachin_Rulez]

Won 6 'Player of the series' award in little over 3 years and folks here downplaying his achievements??? Tell me how many sehwag had won (before this NZ series, if he happened to win this one)??? nada, zilch. How about dhoni compared to Yuvraj during the same time?? And someone here was comparing him to Raina and Yusuf..haha... Yuvraj is clearly our biggest match winner in the last 3-4 years !! Enough said!!! :--D

[Lord]

nice to see a south indian prasing a punjabi,Sriram.if u know wat i mean:two_thumbs_up:

[Mr. Wicket]

nice to see a south indian prasing a punjabi

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Lord]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Take it in a positive way,Salil.i'm appreciating his unbiased approach