Caught Speaking Malayalam

[Lurker]

I speak my mother tongue with somebody who knows it' date=' if not, I will try to use a mix of Hindi and English with others from India. [b']But if somebody doesn't know Hindi or my mother tongue, I am glad that he and I know English so that we can communicate.

Thats the kicker CR. The reason why English is used to communicate outside India is exactly that, lack of Hindi or common language skills. Now there are two ways to look at it: a) Keep using English as common denominator. b) Strengthen Hindi,or other Indian language. I personally go for b). The pluses are lot more than for a). The big plus for English is onsite(outside India), the big plus for Hindi is offshore (in India). I go by Inmon's ground up approach in DW and not Kimball's top down. Probably holds the same here too :winky::winky:

[fineleg]

Lurker, I'm no DW expert - so I'll defer the final answer to you - but isn't Kimball's method more popular for DW in Enterprises? :winky:

[Lurker]

Lurker, I'm no DW expert - so I'll defer the final answer to you - but isn't Kimball's method more popular for DW in Enterprises? :winky:

Depends on who you ask FL :winky:. Probably the most definitive study on this has been by Thilini and Watson who suggested 39% of DW world uses Inmon while 27% uses Kimball. Kimball does give the perception of being more popular simply because of its nature of creating small piecemeal datamarts and not going for an enterprise wide application. Personally speaking both are great methodologies, the devil is always in the implementation. Personally I lean more towards Inmon's approach though.

[Macj]

Thats the kicker CR. The reason why English is used to communicate outside India is exactly that, lack of Hindi or common language skills. Now there are two ways to look at it: a) Keep using English as common denominator.

The logical way.

b) Strengthen Hindi,or other Indian language.

Why what are the benefits? English is and has been the language of commerce for over 3 centuries.

I personally go for b). The pluses are lot more than for a). The big plus for English is onsite(outside India), the big plus for Hindi is offshore (in India). I go by Inmon's ground up approach in DW and not Kimball's top down. Probably holds the same here too :winky::winky:

A personal choice is not the choice that will hold sway here. Learning and speaking fluent English is essential for a successful career , even as you stated in the sciences in the public sector the papers and the instruction of research is English. What are you fighting this for? The Luddites lost. We are not in the 1850s, English by sheer presence has established itself as a lingua franca of India.

[Macj]

And how many other countries do exhibit this kind of nonsense? Much as I try to see your viewpoint(genuine as it may be) I am completely at a loss to see why this is a non-issue in countries like Russia, China, Brazil, Japan etc etc. The ONLY country of a decent size and magnitude that suffers from this is India!

Sure they do , theyre just very localised. Russia has hundreds of minorities that speak various languages but all are fluent in Russian. In the Russo sphere of influence much akin to English Russian is the language of commerce and politics. e.g. The people of the Caucusus region were conquered only in the 1850s when Russian suzereignity was forced upon them, its a hated language yet all of them speak it fluently. Japan is a homogenuous country but not without minorities , the Ainu have their own language and are at the bottom of the economic and social ladder there because they havent integrated completely into the majority Japanese culture. Brazil is not an example because much like the US it was a colonized nation and it took the language and culture of the first colonisers who also happened to be the first settlers, subsequent settlers shed their original languages and absorbed Portuguese. But such was the magnitude of German and Italian immigration into Brazil in the 1850 onwards that whole settlements of German and Italian speakers threatened to alter the language balance. Soon after the years of 1914 Brazil ordered its German and Italian speakers to give up their schools and become Lusophone completely, sometimes schools were closed by force too. Currently the German dialect and the Italian dialect (Talian) are still spoken though the official language throughout Brazil is Portuguese. I dont understand why English should not be the most widely spoken / instructed language in India, it only benefits the nation.

[Lurker]

Why what are the benefits?

Too many to note. For starters it would make Indians more coherent. The only adage that I keep hearing in support of English are economic reasons, more so International economy. What about the facts at home? How does it help to see a Tamilian interact with a Brit in English when he can not communicate with a fellow Assamiya?? I mean if the entire notion of India is to do International economy then why have a nation and not federated versions of EU? Let gujrat be its own master of domain and so should Bihar. Why should we call a large strip of land a nation when the fellow citizens are largely unaware of each other? Unless of course they use a foreign language which is the whole premise of the argument.

English is and has been the language of commerce for over 3 centuries.

I could debate the past history that its not true but here is the kicker. Most of the media in United States these days keep on suggesting how knowing an International language is vital to survive in modern world. On one of my last trips I read how United States is not the retainer of best brains anymore. It was from Harvard Business Review and it stated very clearly Moreover, when the children of today’s expats enter the work force, they’ll reap a huge advantage from knowing the second language — Chinese, Portuguese, Hindu — they learned to speak at home as youngsters. http://www.usairwaysmag.com/articles/a_looming_american_diaspora/ So yes it would help to notice the trend and not keep yapping on English-economy-win-win scenario.

Learning and speaking fluent English is essential for a successful career , even as you stated in the sciences in the public sector the papers and the instruction of research is English.

First of all there is a difference between learning/speaking and being obsessive. India is NOT, repeat NOT, the ONLY country in the world where some citizens use English. Germans know the language too, as do Italians, or Brazillians etc etc. However none of these countries shame their own citizens in the hospital lobbies for speaking German. None of these countries make their Generation Next pay 25c everytime they speak Spanish and not English. And yes these countries are more successful than India today. So lets not go the whole success routine. xxx

[Macj]

First of all there is a difference between learning/speaking and being obsessive. India is NOT, repeat NOT, the ONLY country in the world where some citizens use English. Germans know the language too, as do Italians, or Brazillians etc etc. However none of these countries shame their own citizens in the hospital lobbies for speaking German. None of these countries make their Generation Next pay 25c everytime they speak Spanish and not English. And yes these countries are more successful than India today. So lets not go the whole success routine. xxx

Theres no reason why one shouldnt be bilingual or even trilingual. If I meet someone who speaks my native language , sometimes I might feel like talking to them in Kannada or Tamil or Hindi or English , shouldnt be forced on me. In a corporate environment it is ethical to speak English. SAP a German company uses English as its language of communication at its headquarters in Waldorf. Lets pose 2 sets of questions to the group: Assume you work in India: a) Would you rather 2 Malayalees speak Malayalam as part of their work when it affects you. b) Would you rather they speak a common language you understand. Assume you work in the US. a) Would you rather 2 Telugu people speak rapid Telugu in side conversations during a meeting that you are a part of. b) Would you rather they speak English , irrespective of how it sounds.

[Rajiv]

Lurks, thanks for your patience!

[Lurker]

Lets pose 2 sets of questions to the group: Assume you work in India: a) Would you rather 2 Malayalees speak Malayalam as part of their work when it affects you. b) Would you rather they speak a common language you understand.

I have worked in that atmosphere, in Bombay, and had no problems hearing Marathi, Telugu etc. Yes Hindi would have been best but the other languages did not bother me. I go with a).

Assume you work in the US. a) Would you rather 2 Telugu people speak rapid Telugu in side conversations during a meeting that you are a part of. b) Would you rather they speak English , irrespective of how it sounds.

The operative word here is meeting. Of course meeting should be 100% official. However if the question is would I rather have people speak their own language when they are with each other? I say sure. Pertinent to the topic at bare is two nurses chatting in a lobby and getting rebuked for that. I see no reason why they should have been grossly discriminated against for that. xxx

[Lurker]

Lurks' date=' thanks for your patience![/quote'] You bet Rajeev.

[Macj]

IPertinent to the topic at bare is two nurses chatting in a lobby and getting rebuked for that. I see no reason why they should have been grossly discriminated against for that. xxx

If at the time of employment they were told that English was to be spoken at the hospital at all times then they had it coming.

[Lurker]

If at the time of employment they were told that English was to be spoken at the hospital at all times then they had it coming.

And you do not find anything wrong with that theory at all?? For starters I doubt any top corporations would be that stupid to make something like this as part of legal documentation. They would not only get shot down by Indian Judicial system but frankly their business would bankrupt if folks decided to throw a dharna out of their doors. And trust me the last thing such business place need, infront of Western patients, is a bunch of Indians showing up with placards suggesting discrimination. Secondly how startling is this notion that a top "Indian" corporation makes it mandatory for English to be spoken inside its "Indian" premise ahead of all the 4000 languages that is spoken in India, and Indians do not have any issue with it? xxx

[Macj]

And you do not find anything wrong with that theory at all?? For starters I doubt any top corporations would be that stupid to make something like this as part of legal documentation. They would not only get shot down by Indian Judicial system but frankly their business would bankrupt if folks decided to throw a dharna out of their doors. And trust me the last thing such business place need, infront of Western patients, is a bunch of Indians showing up with placards suggesting discrimination. Secondly how startling is this notion that a top "Indian" corporation makes it mandatory for English to be spoken inside its "Indian" premise ahead of all the 4000 languages that is spoken in India, and Indians do not have any issue with it? xxx

I find it weird but if I need the job i'll speak English, I might speak my native tongue on the sly. I know of many companies that tell its Indian leads to inform their on site workers to refrain from speaking local languages or browsing Indian language papers.

[fineleg]

A reasonably good grasp of English has helped Indians tremendously. Schools enforcing that kids need to speak English (while they are in the school premises) has helped fluency for Indian kids. Ofcourse corporal punishment should be banned. But having a policy that English only in the premises is not a bad thing per se. They can always speak whatever language they choose outside of the school hours.

[Macj]

We should encourage English for the same reason that we write in English on this forum. There is a plethora of technical, medical and social knowledge available in English, this should be exploited. We shouldnt stride forward, we should LEAP forward as a nation, we've been held back far too long. ps @ Lurker- what is your mothertongue if you dont mind.

[Lurker]

I find it weird but if I need the job i'll speak English, I might speak my native tongue on the sly.

That is the crux of the argument. If I have been involved in this whole language argument 100 times, on each one of those 100 times it has boiled down to the same reasoning at the end - economic. For the record even within this thread the argument has been largely economic and absolutely no argument has come towards the linguistic benefits of the language really. Appropose the economic benefit it is hugely overrated. If India has to succeed Indians will have to build up their own self-confidence. Every top nation has some identity that they have carved on their own. Chinese are good in Sports, Aussies are outdoorsy kind, Brazil are fun loving people, Latinos are hot blooded and passionate, English carry their accents, French their culture, Americans well maybe their arrogance, Swedish their no-taboo behaviour, Germans their excellence. Indians? Well we excel in doing back room office for our masters in a foreign language and celebrate when one of ours wins a Spelling bee. Hard to digest but true. xxx PS: My mother tongue is Maithili, my Dad's Magahi. Both of thse are dialects of Bihar alongside Bhojpuri which I can speak. These three in turn are essentially Hindi with local accents/phrases etc. So Hindi becomes my all-in-one language.

[coffee_rules]

Atleast in schools, there is some basis for the English enforcement. But in Hospitals..C'mon it is discriminiation and it will not stand a chance in hell in court. Even if they had signed a contract, it will not stand a chance. Can't believe in this day, where human rights are celebrated, one can jusitfy enforcement of any kind. I can agree of such enforcement if they are in a meeting. But generally talking in private in any language in the premeisis shouldn't be enforced.

[Macj]

If I have been involved in this whole language argument 100 times, on each one of those 100 times it has boiled down to the same reasoning at the end - economic. For the record even within this thread the argument has been largely economic and absolutely no argument has come towards the linguistic benefits of the language really.

The most precise language in the world in my opinion is the Sanskrit of Panini. If 100 other scholars concur will you learn it? The most beautiful language in my opinion unturned in over 2000 years is Tamil, I know it , I speak it with whomsoever speaks it to me/ with me , will other Indians learn it just for kicks? Theres always an economic component to learning languages, be it Brazil, the USA, ancient Rome whatever, there is a language that evolves into a powerful medium. That is the language people will learn. What is 'linguistic benefits', can you name a few?

PS: My mother tongue is Maithili, my Dad's Magahi. Both of thse are dialects of Bihar alongside Bhojpuri which I can speak. These three in turn are essentially Hindi with local accents/phrases etc. So Hindi becomes my all-in-one language.

Very interesting.

[zubinpepsi]

Lurks' date=' thanks for your patience![/quote'] wat happnd to tht troll??

[Lurker]

The most precise language in the world in my opinion is the Sanskrit of Panini. If 100 other scholars concur will you learn it? The most beautiful language in my opinion unturned in over 2000 years is Tamil, I know it , I speak it with whomsoever speaks it to me/ with me , will other Indians learn it just for kicks?

Actually I do know Sanskrit, if only a bit. Took it for 3 years as part of my curriculum. Whether it is the same as Panini's version I dont know. My grasp of Sanskrit is pretty rustic but if it was to be pushed I wouldnt mind brushing up on it. Same with Tamil, it is indeed a beautiful language. Although it may sound crude and vulgar but once us friends in college basically had a sit down about which language sounded sweetest without being vulgar. As an example we all put forth the translation of rear-end. Hindi and Punjabi were the the crudest, Tamil came across as being sweetest :haha::haha::haha: I know I know I am being pervert here. The linguistic argument could be something like : a) Bengali is the easiest to learn amongst all Indian languages. It would be faster to teach 750 million people Bengali than teach 750 million folks English. b) Bengali is more akin to local languages and so while a Telugu wont be able to translate the story of Venkateshwara in English without losing the native charm he can easily do that in Tamil say. You know arguments of that nature. So yeah I do understand the economic nature of the argument but if that is the ONLY argument it does not help the case, and also renders all of us looking as penny chasers. xxx