Murali vs. Tendulkar

[The Outsider]

So now you have resorted to lying through your teeth , eh ? :hysterical:. Show me where I said that - lets see if you can get away without exposing how you have micheviously tried to play with words above.

You claimed Tendulkar had spent "hardly any" time in the top 5 ODI rankings over the last 10 years and avoided giving the definition of "hardly any" like plague before admitting you were fibbing all the time.

LOL..what did you expect ESPN to ask for your vishesh tippani ? :hysterical:. The fact that not a single wicketkeeper was even mentioned by a myraid of his contemporaries, historians and other players of various eras and all other teams - let alone the distinguished panel, is good enough. Samajdaar ko ishara he kaafi hota hai.

Samajhdar takes the word of a set of people on one cricketing issue as gospel but calls them biased on another cricketing issue. I am glad I am not a samjhdar like you.

Sorry bhaiyaa..really ignorant of me not to know such a " mahaan" , " popular" wicket keeping hasti like " Don Tallon " LOL. Really, if Bradman even kept his favorite net bowler on that list because he felt troubled by him - you would also argue about being an all time great legend.:winky:

Of course you are ignorant because not only Bradman but writers like Fingelton have also written good things about Tallon.

Believe me..I understand it better than you ever would. Heard about the concept of moving averages ? Do you know whats that got to do all with the algorithm of all time ratings ? :sarcastic_blum:

You do? Those rankings are based only on the peaks accomplished by the cricketers. They are not moving averages. They can only be used to say how high one players' peak was compared to another. If player A and B both play for 10 years, and player A attains a peak lasting 1 year of 900 points and is in the 600-700 range for the other 9 years and player B attains a peak lasting 1 year at 850 points and is between 750-800 for the other 9 years, player A would rank higher than B according to those rankings. Which given your understanding of things so far, you might actually agree with. :hysterical:

[Mr. Wicket]

Of course you are ignorant because not only Bradman but writers like Fingelton have also written good things about Tallon.

Writers like Fingleton, other top quality cricketers like Alan Davidson and opponents like the esteemed Godfrey Evans (another considered among England's finer keepers). But of course patriot is right, and if any of those folks were to express those views now, they'd just be biased cricketers ganging up against his opinion. :winky:

[yoda]

What I merely said was - that Sachin cannot pull out of ODIS wantonly playing very sparsely because that would sort of be a breach of trust with his sponsors who sign contracts with him based on his appearances. Sure if he is dropped or injured or unfit its fair game but he can't decide to " rest " as and when he wants for however he wants.

You can't make that statement unless you have inside info on his contracts.

[The Outsider]

You can't make that statement unless you have inside info on his contracts.

If lack of knowledge was to prevent patriot from posting he would have stopped after the introduction thread.

[Mr. Wicket]

:hysterical:

[patriot]

You do? Those rankings are based only on the peaks accomplished by the cricketers. They are not moving averages.

:girl_haha: What a waste of time, baharwale. Talk about ignorance. LOL

[The Outsider]

:girl_haha: What a waste of time, baharwale. Talk about ignorance. LOL

Writing in big fonts and bold doesn't make you any less ignorant. Those all time rankings are nothing but the peaks attained by players during their career. From their own website : http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/alltime/test/batting/

The ratings shown are the highest points totals these players have attained and no player is allowed to appear on the list more than once.

[Mr. Wicket]

Oh don't start bringing facts and cold hard truths into this. You'll kill all of patriot's momentum and fun.

[patriot]

You can't make that statement unless you have inside info on his contracts.

Yoda, My brother happens to work for Percept d'mark sports management office at Mumbai as a marketing guy - Believe me I know a fair bit about how sport endorsement deals work when you sign up for an agency to handle your endorsements. Heres' a piece on SRT's latest partnership: http://www.televisionpoint.com/news2006/newsfullstory.php?id=1146446444

Marketing men who have tried to sell endearing futures to Tendulkar describe a man who is shrewd, unnerving informed about his value and at ease with the terrible prose of player contracts. "You think you are mapping him, but he is mapping you, After you approach him, he begins to find out your financial strength. He asks you how you are going to position him and whether you can give him products that are appropriate to his standing. He is very smart. And, boy, is he connected." a senior executive of a management firm says.

When you are so particular about what you want to endorse - you can't say f*** off to hot property like ODIS. Client will get put pressure on his management company and therefore him for breach of deal. :winky:

[The Outsider]

Akram happens to rank 59th on the list behind lulzollas like Harmison, Stuart Clark, Bishop, Akhtar, and Lawson. http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/alltime/test/bowling/

[patriot]

Writing in big fonts and bold doesn't make you any less ignorant. Those all time rankings are nothing but the peaks attained by players during their career. From their own website : http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/alltime/test/batting/

Agyaani baba, Don't make me laugh so much.:hysterical:. A bit of gyaan: If you notice SRT's top rating of 898 is against Zimbabwe in 2002. If you are wondering how ..that is the moving avg ( only the progammers know how many years/tests moving avg they use) of his performance before his poor patch in 2003. http://www.cricketpulse.com/Rankings/

[The Outsider]

Agyaani baba, Don't make me laugh so much.:hysterical:. A bit of gyaan: If you notice SRT's top rating of 898 is against Zimbabwe in 2002. If you are wondering how ..that is the moving avg ( only the progammers know how many years/tests moving avg they use) of his performance before his poor patch in 2003. http://www.cricketpulse.com/Rankings/

Yes Ajmeri Baba, the rankings at any given point in time are obviously calculated in that manner with less weight given to older performances than newer ones. That's true for any dynamic ranking system. However, to make a judgment on the quality of a player based on the peak attained by him, however short lived is downright dumb as I've shown with Akram's example above. All these rankings say is that the peak of player X was better than the peak of player Y. If you want to find a reasonable answer to who was better based on the rankings you need to find out the area under the curve.

[yoda]

Yoda, My brother happens to work for Percept d'mark sports management office at Mumbai as a marketing guy - Believe me I know a fair bit about how sport endorsement deals work when you sign up for an agency to handle your endorsements. Heres' a piece on SRT's latest partnership: http://www.televisionpoint.com/news2006/newsfullstory.php?id=1146446444 When you are so particular about what you want to endorse - you can't say f*** off to hot property like ODIS. Client will get put pressure on his management company and therefore him for breach of deal. :winky:

Well what you have posted a general link which most of us have seen when the announcement came. I am looking for specific clause in his contract or sponsorship agreement which states that he must continue to play ODIs or something to that effect. I can even imagine a clause which could relate money to the number of games played, etc, which in itself doesn't mean he is going to keep playing even if he considers himself useless or if he is injured. After all he is a guy who has tons of money, he isn't going to embarrass himself or the country for the sake of some more money. And all this discussion is really moot cause he really is the best ODI bat we have. So, he continuing to play ODIs for India is actually good for our team and us fans. So why exactly does it bother you? Cause you think he is doing it all for the record and the money? Have you ever wondered that you could be totally wrong and cause it seems to be based on your hunch and not supported by openly available facts? I am not trying to tell you how you should think, but it appears that your reasoning for why he wants to keep playing ODIs doesn't seem to make sense to most of us.

[patriot]

Yes Ajmeri Baba, the rankings at any given point in time are obviously calculated in that manner with less weight given to older performances than newer ones. That's true for any dynamic ranking system. If you want to find a reasonable answer to who was better based on the rankings you need to find out the area under the curve.

Eggjactly...ab aaya na unth pahaad ke neeche. Watch - /batting/?id=1905"]http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/playerdisplay/Array['url']/batting/?id=1905 ...and then /batting/?id=2122"]http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/playerdisplay/Array['url']/batting/?id=2122 And make a decent " guess " about which has a larger area beneath.

[patriot]

Well what you have posted a general link which most of us have seen when the announcement came. I am looking for specific clause in his contract or sponsorship agreement which states that he must continue to play ODIs or something to that effect. I can even imagine a clause which could relate money to the number of games played, etc, which in itself doesn't mean he is going to keep playing even if he considers himself useless or if he is injured. After all he is a guy who has tons of money, he isn't going to embarrass himself or the country for the sake of some more money. And all this discussion is really moot cause he really is the best ODI bat we have. So, he continuing to play ODIs for India is actually good for our team and us fans. So why exactly does it bother you? Cause you think he is doing it all for the record and the money? Have you ever wondered that you could be totally wrong and cause it seems to be based on your hunch and not supported by openly available facts? I am not trying to tell you how you should think, but it appears that your reasoning for why he wants to keep playing ODIs doesn't seem to make sense to most of us.

Yoda, Sachin's is far more valuable to us in test matches rather than ODIS - We have quite a few decent guys - All considering that the WC is at our home. Nothing against him playing big tournies. But for me our test batting with him injured will become vulnerable with Dravid not being the same he once was. Apart from that, believe me, no sports company will appreciate a cricketer " retiring" from ODIS at will after signing a deal.

[The Outsider]

Eggjactly...ab aaya na unth pahaad ke neeche. Watch - /batting/?id=1905"]http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/playerdisplay/Array['url']/batting/?id=1905 ...and then /batting/?id=2122"]http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/playerdisplay/Array['url']/batting/?id=2122 And make a decent " guess " about which has a larger area beneath.

Then why were you trying to misguide the discussion by invoking the peaks? It seems you finally got some education today. :hysterical: What's the point in playing a guessing game? As if you will agree if I say Tendulkar - you haven't even agreed on things which have been demonstrated more clearly. But, just as a demonstration - between March '98 to October '03, Tendulkar was constantly above the 820 mark. Juwaari's longest such stretch is between January '05 to October '08. Tendulkar went above the 700 mark in Aug '93 for the first time and did not come down below that number for 13 years. Juwaari went above the 700 mark in Mar. 2002, almost 7 years after his debut except for a 1 year period in between.

[Sachinism]

This thread will be enlisted into ICFs Hall of Fame.

[goose]

Look at how smooth the curves are, in particular during the ascent of each player to their respective peaks. It's best observed on the Change To Player Ranking. One batsman's curve is pretty much a straight line, a reflection of his pre-ordained path to greatness, immune to external factors. The other batsman's curve is far more noisy, a case of doing well when the conditions and bowling suited, and not so well when they didn't.

[patriot]

Then why were you trying to misguide the discussion by invoking the peaks? It seems you finally got some education today. :hysterical:

LOL..at your hilarious logic. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: I mentioned the peaks purely to mention that SRT's peak in the 90's ( that his fans keep claiming was when he was practically untouchable) - has been emulated and more by Juwaari's bull run of the 2000's and that shows in the difference in their peak ratings.

What's the point in playing a guessing game? As if you will agree if I say Tendulkar - you haven't even agreed on things which have been demonstrated more clearly.

Hypothetically ..assume they are even close to being the same area - why such hype and hoopla about SRT ? People argue that since 2000's wickets have eased out , bowling standards have declined - yet they have no justification why SRT would be outdone comfortably by Ponting in this period as a whole - when on the contrary he should be doing as good if not better than what he did in the 90's. Emotions, blind patriotism and the fact that SRT is a sober, modest family man without any controversies, whilst Ponting is a brash, uncouth scumbag who's had drinking problems/brawls in the past and generall y disliked -no doubt seem to cloud honest opinions.

But, just as a demonstration - between March '98 to October '03, Tendulkar was constantly above the 820 mark. Juwaari's longest such stretch is between January '05 to October '08. Tendulkar went above the 700 mark in Aug '93 for the first time and did not come down below that number for 13 years. Juwaari went above the 700 mark in Mar. 2002, almost 7 years after his debut except for a 1 year period in between.

That is a fair point - SRT for atleast 10 years was 750 and above which is stunning and a testimony to his consistency. But Juwaari batted at No.6 for nearly 33 tests since his debut in 1995, when the Waugh brothers were still playing. Hardly a spot to become a run machine . It was when he became a number 3 bat that his amazing bull run started.

[Jersey #10]

so this patriot dude is ignoring posts which prove him wrong http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=791175&postcount=119 hat a jerk