India vs Australia, 2009 : Indian team announced for first 2 ODIs, retained for next 5 ODIs

[Guest Hiten.]

The reason why team India nowadays can hit yet not fold easily at 150 is because we have too many hitters Veeru Yuvi SRT Gauti Dhoni Raina All these are some of the best batsmen and power hitters in the game. So, it is nearly impossible that all of them fail simultaneously. And even if a couple of them play their innings then we are almost surely looking at a 280-300 or 300+ total. And one of the main reasons Dravid cannot be in the playing XI is because he cannot be placed at no. 7 while Kohli/Jadeja/anybody else can be placed at no. 7 without any problem.. the first six batsmen of team India are too strong to be hassled with as they are the main reasons for our success in the last few years

http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366625.html Only seaming track and Indian power hitters were bundled out under 150. Note, that SRT was not there in the top order. It's for those who are questioning Sachin's presence in the ODI XI.

[vvvslaxman]

Problem with Dravid he was not able to turn over the strike. He was often stuck at one end. He couldn't dominate spinners. For instances Dravid faced 32 deliveries from Afridite and made a mere 20 runs. When everything was lost he swung the bat around and slightly increased the SR. He was not fitting the scheme of things.

[Lord]

pathetic reason, So Dravid doesn't have a slot just because he cant score quickly in a team where all others are power hitters, who can on their day easily make 350 and also can fold up for 150 Perhaps the effect of the 20-20 masala i suppose for your info, this is an ODI series where a team needs to play 50 overs and not everytime teams are going to make 300+

r u telling me that Sachin doesnt have a good enuf technique to handle swing bowling on flat pitches we r gonna be needed aggresive batsmen to pot 300 + scores.RD is not that.also fielding is gonna be big issue too. u ignored my other reason i.e. running b/w wickets.RD got run out on both occasions in CT n got GG run out v Pak which proved to be fatal

[vvvslaxman]

Didn't India bite the dust in NZ 2-5 when there were seaming tracks. That team had Dravid, Tendulkar. Also India lost 0-4 in SA against SA. That also had Dravid and the others. Let us face it . Everyone is equally susceptible. Dravid would at best protect his wicket on a seaming track. 20 runs in 70 balls or something which would eventually amount to nothing. I don't think many players in the world can dominate decent bowling on a seaming track.

[ViruRulez]

http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366625.html Only seaming track and Indian power hitters were bundled out under 150. Note, that SRT was not there in the top order. It's for those who are questioning Sachin's presence in the ODI XI.

I think nobody is questioning SRT's presence. He still bats at a good SR on any track and he is a indispensable member of the Indian team. The question was about Dravid's selection. Regarding the 150, cricketers are also human and so I dont find it surprising that they were bundled out for 150 in a match. But the probability of that is very less on an average on any track. Dont forget we won the ODI series there. So, it was just one match and not a phenomenon throughout the tournament. NZ lost all the other ODIs in the series against India. :hatsoff:

[spectre]

r u telling me that Sachin doesnt have a good enuf technique to handle swing bowling on flat pitches we r gonna be needed aggresive batsmen to pot 300 + scores.RD is not that.also fielding is gonna be big issue too. u ignored my other reason i.e. running b/w wickets.RD got run out on both occasions in CT n got GG run out v Pak which proved to be fatal

You comparison of Kohli with Dravid siting fielding and other things irked me, hence i brought up Sachin, who is at the same stage of his career the runout was was GG mistake, most will agree Sachin is not a great fielder compared to Dravid, they are mostly at par, Dravid is a better catcher Yes, Sachin is a better runner between wickets Remember, in the last 2 series, it looked like Dravid was given a role to play the anchor role since both Sehwag and GG missed out So, its very easy to blame his SR, but no one knows what role he was given and if he did that for the team For some stats, India folded for less than 175 on seven occasions in last 2 years and lost the match with the power hitters, most were very embarrassing ones http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=team_score;result=2;runsmax1=175;runsval1=runs;spanmin1=05+Oct+2007;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=team;view=innings

[vvvslaxman]

For some stats, India folded for less than 175 on seven occasions in last 2 years and lost the match with the power hitters, most were very embarrassing ones http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=team_score;result=2;runsmax1=175;runsval1=runs;spanmin1=05+Oct+2007;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=team;view=innings

But in the last 2 years they reached world no.1. Won 6 consecutive ODi series. So they were doing something right weren't they? Didn't our seniors fold like pack of cards against Mendis in Tests? Especially Dravid and Laxman.

[Guest Hiten.]

I think nobody is questioning SRT's presence. He still bats at a good SR on any track and he is a indispensable member of the Indian team. The question was about Dravid's selection. Regarding the 150, cricketers are also human and so I dont find it surprising that they were bundled out for 150 in a match. But the probability of that is very less on an average on any track. Dont forget we won the ODI series there. So, it was just one match and not a phenomenon throughout the tournament. NZ lost all the other ODIs in the series against India. :hatsoff:

Don't forget the entire ODI series was played on a very docile, unNZ pitches. Heck, when India posted 392 in the 3rd game, NZ were this close to chasing it..obviously the end result does not justify the amount of pressure NZ exerted on India while chasing it. 5th game was the only instance where the bowlers got their chance to have a say and Indian batsman capitulated when the ball was doing a fair bit. I am just trying to prove your notion about India cannot fold under 150. We are actually more prone to doing so, given the amount of risk-takers in the team. This is the reason why I feel MSD has curbed his aggression to add some stability in the middle order.

[Lord]

You comparison of Kohli with Dravid irked me' date=' hence i brought up Sachin, who is at the same stage of his career[/quote'] who the hell is comparing Kohli wid Dravid?RD has been a fantastic ODI player no doubt,i just said that Kohli is our future n we need to look ahead.Sehwag,Yuvraj,SRT can provide experience.wen they r not there.RD's inclusion is completely justified n i'll be the first one to root for it.

the runout was was GG mistake, most will agree

partly but largely it was RD's fault.the ball went to midon n he sould have been calling.instead he just took 2 steps forward n came back.GG got confused n run out.kind of wat happened with Symo in DC v T&T game

Sachin is not a great fielder compared to Dravid, they are mostly at par, Dravid is a better catcher Yes, Sachin is a better runner between wickets

Dravid is only better in slips,SRT is much better in outfield,n better at ground fielding

Remember, in the last 2 series, it looked like Dravid was given a role to play the anchor role since both Sehwag and GG missed out So, its very easy to blame his SR, but no one knows what role he was given and if he did that for the team

even he got the anchor role,that does not mean u choke the innings,RD should have rotated strike n given more strike to power player.thats wat anchor player does

For some stats, India folded for less than 175 on seven occasions in last 2 years and lost the match with the power hitters, most were very embarrassing ones http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=team_score;result=2;runsmax1=175;runsval1=runs;spanmin1=05+Oct+2007;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=team;view=innings

the win-loss % is also much higher in last two years

[ViruRulez]

But in the last 2 years they reached world no.1. Won 6 consecutive ODi series. So they were doing something right weren't they? Didn't our seniors fold like pack of cards against Mendis in Tests? Especially Dravid and Laxman.

:dito: Just to pick up 7 ODIs is not fair.. as I said we cannot take out one performance or two performances.. instead we have to look average performance through a long term.. and the power hitters are the reason for reaching upto no. 1 position in ODIs and no. 2 in tests.. our bowling has been quite ineffective all these years and if 6 Dravid kind-of-players with low SR played instead of our present permanent 6 power hitters then maybe we would have been in 7th or 8th place in the world :hatsoff: Either it is accepted or denied but the reason of our success is because of the power hitters :winky:

[spectre]

But in the last 2 years they reached world no.1. Won 6 consecutive ODi series. So they were doing something right weren't they? Didn't our seniors fold like pack of cards against Mendis in Tests? Especially Dravid and Laxman.

this is not a senior vs junior debate Dravid is one of India's best batsman, and you have to look at him as a bat not whether he is the most athletic or whether he is a good runner between the wicket If fielding is the yardstick, we might as well have 11 Kaif's in the team Picking Dravid of one off series is not on, If your approach is moving towards youth for ODIs (which is right) then do it consistently, and not citing lame reasons like he is not athletic etc Moyo is the worst fielder and runner between wickets in the world, but he is still one of Pak's best batsman and very consistent (only on cricket). you dont dispose off such players citing lame reasons, do you and for Mendis thing, the ODI team played him only for 10 overs and TBH only Dhoni and Raina played him well, all other still struggled whereas, in tests they have subjected to every 2nd over of this mystery man with so many close-ins

[vvvslaxman]

Picking Dravid of one off series is not on, If your approach is moving towards youth for ODIs (which is right) then do it consistently, and not citing lame reasons s

Yes. That was the mistake. Lot of us echoed this sentiment even at the time of picking. Now that Veeru and Yuvi are back Dravid had to make way. Honestly they didn't give any clear cut reasons for picking Dravid again. Some speculated it was because couple of youngsters got out to short balls. Some speculated that it could be farewell series for Dravid. We never know the truth.

[ViruRulez]

Don't forget the entire ODI series was played on a very docile, unNZ pitches. Heck, when India posted 392 in the 3rd game, NZ were this close to chasing it..obviously the end result does not justify the amount of pressure NZ exerted on India while chasing it. 5th game was the only instance where the bowlers got their chance to have a say and Indian batsman capitulated when the ball was doing a fair bit. I am just trying to prove your notion about India cannot fold under 150. We are actually more prone to doing so, given the amount of risk-takers in the team. This is the reason why I feel MSD has curbed his aggression to add some stability in the middle order.

As I said in the previous posts too, you cannot pick out only one or two matches and diagnose it for problems. I said there is rare chances of all the 6 power hitters getting out and it is one of those rare chances when that match happened. Even the Aus team on the early 2000s used to be bundled out on low totals on specific occasions but that does not mean that Gilly, Hayden, Pwnting etc. were bad .. you have to look on the average over a long period of time .. it is unfair to just point out that they got bundled out once for 150 and so they can do so easily.. the fact is that look at the Indian team under Azhar's time and instead of Dravid etc. being consistent they used to bundle out at low scores more often than they do at present :hatsoff:

[spectre]

who the hell is comparing Kohli wid Dravid?RD has been a fantastic ODI player no doubt' date=i just said that Kohli is our future n we need to look ahead.Sehwag,Yuvraj,SRT can provide experience.wen they r not there.RD's inclusion is completely justified n i'll be the first one to root for it.

You were where u said Dravid doesn't add anything to the team and Kohli is an excellent fielder

[ViruRulez]

this is not a senior vs junior debate Dravid is one of India's best batsman, and you have to look at him as a bat not whether he is the most athletic or whether he is a good runner between the wicket If fielding is the yardstick, we might as well have 11 Kaif's in the team Picking Dravid of one off series is not on, If your approach is moving towards youth for ODIs (which is right) then do it consistently, and not citing lame reasons like he is not athletic etc Moyo is the worst fielder and runner between wickets in the world, but he is still one of Pak's best batsman and very consistent (only on cricket). you dont dispose off such players citing lame reasons, do you and for Mendis thing, the ODI team played him only for 10 overs and TBH only Dhoni and Raina played him well, all other still struggled whereas, in tests they have subjected to every 2nd over of this mystery man with so many close-ins

Yes.. that is the main point.. we cannot look at only one aspect.. if we needed just 11 good fielders than 11 Kaifs would make into the team .. if we needed 11 defensive batsmen then 11 Dravids would be in the team But we have to look at the team as a whole and RD is a brilliant batsmen but his style does not work for the present ODI team.. nobody is saying he is bad etc. but his batting does not have the aggression needed for ODIs.

[spectre]

Yes.. that is the main point.. we cannot look at only one aspect.. if we needed just 11 good fielders than 11 Kaifs would make into the team .. if we needed 11 defensive batsmen then 11 Dravids would be in the team But we have to look at the team as a whole and RD is a brilliant batsmen but his style does not work for the present ODI team.. nobody is saying he is bad etc. but his batting does not have the aggression needed for ODIs.

lol, you are playing into my hands my point is the same, we cant have 7 similar style batsman for all situations 'Dravid not needed for ODIs becuase he is defensive' - what the hell are you talking about, this guy has scored 10k+ runs in this format and has played many blinders, remember the 50 off 22 balls

[Lord]

You were where u said Dravid doesn't add anything to the team and Kohli is an excellent fielder

n how is that comparing? u misunderstood me.wen i said that RD doesnt add anything to the team it was with regards to current team.RD brings experience in the side.n there is enuf experience in SRT,VS,UV.we need exuberance of youth n Kohli provides that. n Kohli being an excellent fielder is a fact,wats wrong with that?

[vvvslaxman]

Teams usually take desperate measures like recalling a long discarded player when they hit the rock bottom. In India's case they were heading towards dizzy heights when this backward step was taken. That is why this move was a failure.

[ViruRulez]

Teams usually take desperate measures like recalling a long discarded player when they hit the rock bottom. In India's case they were heading towards dizzy heights when this backward step was taken. That is why this move was a failure.

The same can be said of Munaf. He has been recalled now as our bowling is at rock bottom. But that does not mean he will be permanent member in case Zak returns and performs well and Ishant returns back to form and Tyagi also makes a huge impact

[spectre]

n how is that comparing? u misunderstood me.wen i said that RD doesnt add anything to the team it was with regards to current team.RD brings experience in the side.n there is enuf experience in SRT,VS,UV.we need exuberance of youth n Kohli provides that. n Kohli being an excellent fielder is a fact,wats wrong with that?

so you made ur assumptions based on just the two series, where he was decent enough though struggled coming back from a long break Am again saying, We need to look at future, but don't treat these greats shabbily, Dravid cannot be picked only for testing conditions, where your youngsters can struggle If your vision is youth, then it should be consistent Saying he doesnt add any value to the team is pure rubbish, whatever team it might be Answer this Just for argument, If Sachin fails for 10 matches consecutively and has strike rate of 70, will you say the same thing, that he doesn't add value to team, he is not the future, we dont need him for WC11 and a player like Uthappa can be picked since he is a better fielder, more suited to ODIs and future prospect