yoda Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Love that ARR rendering. As for this fatwa, they keep recycling this issue over and over. Not sure who gives a damn about these fatwas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hiten. Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 This is their ONLY way to get 5 mins of fame and to be heard. Let them enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triam Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Love nikreds arguments, hahaha, dude, you have a lot more patience to inanity than I can ever imagine having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikred Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Guys, how does an ideal secular society handle this? I always hear this from padosis makign snide remarks about Indian secularism. I am confused how secularism works. :(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikred Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Love nikreds arguments, hahaha, dude, you have a lot more patience to inanity than I can ever imagine having. I am pissed off man, i gave up. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnterTheVoid Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 If I were a muslim, religion or not, it is my phucking life and I do whatever I want. Shove your religious blackmail down someone else's threat. Tell someone who cares :finger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 PATHETIC THIS... The best musical of the song was rendered by Oscar Winner A R Rehman (a muslim).. which gave the song a fiery patriotic touch to it.. Now are they going to issue a fatwa against ARR? I'm interested in knowing what % of Indian muslims follow the instructions/directions issued by Jamait-e-Ulema??? ARR is not the only one. Many of Hindi lyricists from Kaifi Azami to Javed Akhtar have been writing/utilizing Vande Mataram in their works. Javed Akhtar was on TV yesterday suggesting he had used the term 3 times in his works and everytime it had inspired him. Also suggested if the Maulanas have problems singing it, dont sing. Period. I personally think India needs to rethink its "National" symbols. Nobody gives a damn as it is. I mean does anyone "respect" hockey because its National Game? Why disrespect such priceless treasure(as I consider Vande Mataram to be). xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 So' date=' what does it mean, then?[/quote'] Anand Math is a great piece of literature CR saab, you should read it, even if in English translation. Just thinking of the book sends electricity down my spine. Dheeraj sameere katni teere baste ban naari , a sanyasi tells another one as he is being taken away by Brits. Anyway people who are fighting for Bande Matram should first fight, in my opinion, for the language in which it was written. Saala bhaasa ka pata nahi, bacchon ko angrezi sheekhana hai aur Vande Matram ko issue banana hai. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Like the average rickshaw puller or brick layer gives a damn! In fact such steps will drive them further away from these fundoo organizations' date=' which is good in the long run.[/quote'] That is partially true. What is equally true is with the growth of fundooism as also modern India's "development" the fabric of India is getting damaged beyond repair. Anyone who has grown up in 80s, or earlier, would remember going to his school and possibly singing prayers without an aorta of judgement. I can recall singing amongst others: 1) Our Father in Heaven Holy be thy name (a distinctly Christian prayer) 2) Aae Maalik tere bande hum aise ho hamare karam (a prayer with distinct Muslim background as Maalik-banda concept is purely Islamic and not Hindu). 3) Humko man ki shakti dena man vijay karein (purely Hindi). Did all of that, never without an issue from myself(or parents). These days I doubt how many parents are teaching their kids those famous works...if they have chance to get away from English teaching that is... xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 The facts are the a lot of muslims will always put their religion first. They commonly will put their religion over their country. In fact many paks will openly say that islam comes first over pakistan. Incidentally this is were many indian muslims get confused, as in their need to support islam over anything else they feel aligned to pakistan as it is a muslim country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punjabi_khota Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 The facts are the a lot of muslims will always put their religion first. They commonly will put their religion over their country. In fact many paks will openly say that islam comes first over pakistan. Incidentally this is were many indian muslims get confused, as in their need to support islam over anything else they feel aligned to pakistan as it is a muslim country. Well you don't know that, do you ? I just see this as publicity stunt, nothing more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triam Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Guys' date=' how does an ideal secular society handle this? I always hear this from padosis makign snide remarks about Indian secularism. I am confused how secularism works. :(([/quote'] India is not an ideal secular society, probably one of the Nordic countries like Norway or Denmark or Sweden are close to an ideal secular society. At a policy level Indias stance can be referred to as religious appeasement (they appease to every religion, including Hinduism). In the danger of it becoming a political mud slinging match BJP portrayed UCC as something that only the Muslisms will oppose, although the big ones that stick out like the 4 wives and the talaq things will directly affect Muslims, there are sufficient stuff that will affect conservative Hindus and conservative Christians too. That said, UCC is a must, Italy one of the mst religious countries in the world what with the Vatican and all has a UCC. Going back to your question an ideal secular society, would not bother about this at all, and the ideal mature secular citizen will not be bothered about this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veer Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 jab khuda maherbaan (govt) to gadha bhi pahelwan.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkey Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Religious fundamentalism is taking over nationalism these days. Happening all over the world not just in India. I hope our weak government makes no compromises on the issue and strongly criticize public condemning of Vande Mataram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 Well you don't know that, do you ? I just see this as publicity stunt, nothing more than that. This is no mickey mouse organisation. This is a massive and top indian muslim organisation. As evidenced by our home minster viisitng their confrence the other day. That rally had 5 crore muslims gathered there, so hardly some minor insignificant organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 India is not an ideal secular society' date=' [b']probably one of the Nordic countries like Norway or Denmark or Sweden are close to an ideal secular society. At a policy level Indias stance can be referred to as religious appeasement (they appease to every religion, including Hinduism). In the danger of it becoming a political mud slinging match BJP portrayed UCC as something that only the Muslisms will oppose, although the big ones that stick out like the 4 wives and the talaq things will directly affect Muslims, there are sufficient stuff that will affect conservative Hindus and conservative Christians too. That said, UCC is a must, Italy one of the mst religious countries in the world what with the Vatican and all has a UCC. Going back to your question an ideal secular society, would not bother about this at all, and the ideal mature secular citizen will not be bothered about this at all. Probably very close to secular but they are deeply ticked off with the muslims after the cartoon broohaha. Further Sweden has some places which have now effectively become Muslim ghettos like Malmo. I had an interesting conversation with a danish girl recently. I have to admit that some things about their way of life is both astounding and inspirational. The Italian religious mumbo-jumbo is a very strong stereotype. The young italians I meet don't seem to give a ****. They do whatever they want and then go and confess. It is hypocrisy rather than any thing else. @ OP, the best way to deal with this kind of stuff is to disregard it. I don't think it is worth wasting time discussing it since majority of the muslims are either unaware about the fatwa or don't really care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 That is partially true. What is equally true is with the growth of fundooism as also modern India's "development" the fabric of India is getting damaged beyond repair. Anyone who has grown up in 80s, or earlier, would remember going to his school and possibly singing prayers without an aorta of judgement. I can recall singing amongst others: 1) Our Father in Heaven Holy be thy name (a distinctly Christian prayer) 2) Aae Maalik tere bande hum aise ho hamare karam (a prayer with distinct Muslim background as Maalik-banda concept is purely Islamic and not Hindu). 3) Humko man ki shakti dena man vijay karein (purely Hindi). Did all of that, never without an issue from myself(or parents). These days I doubt how many parents are teaching their kids those famous works...if they have chance to get away from English teaching that is... xxx Yeah, that's true but the reason for that is not only religious fundamentalism. The society in general has changed. Yes, there are elements who try to zealously "defend" their religion to the extent that they start invading others' space but a lot of it is also related to how little attention is being paid by schools and parents in the upbringing of children to develop the cultural aspects and awareness towards the country's history and fabric. Too much emphasis on material aspects. Students might be able to solve second order differential equations in class X today, but are completely clueless about what went into the development of India, what kind of people reside in the country etc. etc. I have noticed it while interacting with my younger cousins, all of whom have gone to really good schools. I am not for a moment saying that the first part is unimportant, but parents and schools must realize that the only time a person is going to become aware of all these things is in school. Once he does his MBA and starts working for Citibank is there any chance that he will care to learn about where Copper is found in India or some peculiar traits the adivasis have? They are not to be blamed entirely for this of course, the limited number of top notch institutes like IITs and IIMs or a few other good institutes and their narrow minded selection criteria means that students have to be at the top of their game in Physics, Math, Chemistry, and Biology. The government has been guilty of not providing a system on the lines of an Indian Institute of Humanities to incite some good brains to come together and provide top notch education in disciplines beyond Engineering and Business. I had interviewed at IIT Bombay a few years back and happened to chat with the Director of the Admissions Committee there. He agreed in principle to my saying that admissions based solely on a test administered in Math, Physics, and Chemistry was wrong and ideally they would like to take into account things like school grades, recommendation letters, independent research etc. like American Universities do but the sheer volume prevents this from happening. Opening up more and varied institutes will ease this situation and help in changing the situation right from the grassroot level. Of course, the faculty would have to be paid more as well to induce smart people to join. It's only a combination of top down and bottom up approach which can work. Coming to something more relevant to this thread, the 90s were a particularly poor time for secularism in the country. However, on my most recent visits to India I noticed things changing for the better at the level of the common man. Yes there are nutter organization who try to milk religion at every go but a lot of people are growing tired of it. Specially enlightening was my visit to Kashmir. People are genuinely fed up with militancy. They see the rest of India growing and progressing and are feeling left behind. There was genuine frustration from quite a few folks at separatists like Lone and Malik, who used to be quite popular. A lot are realizing that there is a lot to be gained by joining the mainstream and of course the deplorable situation in Pakistan is also helping that notion. You also have mainstream and popular Muslims like Javed Akhtar come out with sensible statements every time there is an attempt of a religious hijack. They used to be silent for most part 10 years back and the manner in which Muslim organizations reacted after 26/11 was very mature and possibly prevented any backlash in the form of riots. I see a lot of hope and change for the better happening vis a vis religious fundamentalism over the next 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 That rally had 5 crore muslims gathered there' date=' so hardly some minor insignificant organisation.[/quote'] Hang on! One out every third Muslim in India was present at the rally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dial_100 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I would request few here not to relate Vande Matram song w/ Fundoo people only... I aint gonna defend them as you all know what they are. Vande Matram is a very very special song for me too.. Wow what a meaningful song. But others should have a freedom not to sing it. They dont need to if they dont mean to. Like, I have a freedom to sing Allahu Allahu (by Nusrat) with the same zeal and devotion as Vande Matram.. which I do sing/listen too almost every week or so. I sometimes even say the Lords prayer as Lurk pointed out... When we say or use term freedom, almost everytime, we are talking of some kind of restriction..amazing... chilll guys..I am gonna listen to both my fav songs (Vande Matram?Quawali) now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Vande Matram is a very very special song for me too.. Wow what a meaningful song. But others should have a freedom not to sing it. They dont need to if they dont mean to. Which is how it should be. The problem here and an oft recurring one is that organizations like Jamiat become self appointed thekedaars of a particular community and decree what they should or should not be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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