What Sachin Tendulkar has that Don Bradman didn’t - Atherton

[goose]

The crime of comparing batsmen of one era with another is one amply demonstrated by the all too often flawed analysis of Tendulkar's career alone. Had the man retired in 2000 or thereabouts (when comparisons with Bradman first surfaced), we wouldn't have to suffer the silly comparisons with all these johnny come latelys whose averages have been swollen by detereorating bowling skills and wickets.

[Sachinism]

The crime of comparing batsmen of one era with another is one amply demonstrated by the all too often flawed analysis of Tendulkar's career alone. Had the man retired in 2000 or thereabouts (when comparisons with Bradman first surfaced)' date=' we wouldn't have to suffer the silly comparisons with all these johnny come latelys whose averages have been swollen by detereorating bowling skills and wickets.[/quote'] :two_thumbs_up:

[Sooda]

Lara was a better batsman than Tendulkar Discuss.

[goose]

Tendulkar's knocks in Sydney and Perth in 1992 were the finest innings ever played on Australian soil - and that includes anything from the great Bradman. Discuss !

[Sachinism]

Lara was a better batsman than Tendulkar Discuss.

You need a new thread. It wouldn't be such a bad idea. I don't remember the last time Sachin and Lara were compared lol

[Jersey #10]

would be awesome if ICC decided to disallow helmets for the world cup tournament or something like that and got rid of the 1 bouncer rule.

World cup tournaments are ODIs...Bradman played his best in Tests :yes:

[99.94]

I think that no matter when Bradman may have played his cricket (if he was bron in the 70's) he still would have been head and shoulders above the rest. Also lol at the guy saying that one of the things Tendulkar has going against him is 'moron umpires'.

[Mr. Wicket]

Tendulkar's knocks in Sydney and Perth in 1992 were the finest innings ever played on Australian soil - and that includes anything from the great Bradman. Discuss !

I disagree and counter with this. http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1970S/1971-72/WORLD-XI_IN_AUS/WORLD-XI_AUS_01-06JAN1972.html I have seen highlights of this on DVD a few times, and that is one of the most phenomenal innings I've watched - and one I desperately wish I could have watched in full. I've had plenty of people tell me in the past that if Sobers was not an all-rounder - if he had never bowled a ball in his life - then he would have been remembered purely as a batsman, and such a great one that even Lara (the obvious comparison, being similarly flamboyant, left handed and playing for the same team) would have been overshadowed. That innings convinced me - some shots I've not even seen from Lara in his peak periods, with all the precision, timing and genius of Tendulkar against a pretty damn fine attack (and a level of flamboyance that I've rarely seen from either, with the way he was going after Lillee's shorter balls). That said, I am with you on your previous remark re. Tendulkar. You may remember our discussion some time back where we both agreed Tendulkar is one of those players you simply can't analyze like that, through stats or comparative breakdowns against/alongside a Lara, Bradman, Ponting or whoever. This may sound like an elitist fan's comment, but those who understand the game and appreciate it will not need ANY statistics or other nonsense to accept Tendulkar as one of the all time greats. Just watching a knock like the 114 at Perth, or one of his 1998 Sharjah assaults v. Aus, or even something as recent as his Perth innings in 08 will say enough about him. I am convinced that if a person can watch such an innings and not appreciate SRT as one of the greatest players the game has seen for his mastery and genius, then no amount of statistical configuration or well-reasoned arguments will convince them otherwise.

[Johnny1]

What Indian and English spinners did Richards score against - for most of his career we used to field a washed up quartet, and the likes of Doshi, Shastri, and Arshad Ayub as spinners. Heck, on a turning track Richards and his side were like headless chickens even against Hirwani. Grimmett and O'Reilly are rated amongst the best all time spinners - they obviously won't have the number of wickets as modern bowlers but even Benaud who saw them in action ranks them no lesser than Warne.

Richards scored against India's first-choice spin quartet - Bedi, Pras, Chandra, Venkat. And he did this very early on in his career. I don't know if it was his debut series, but it was close to that. The clinching argument for me about Bradman is that he averaged much much more than his contemporaries, so all points about the conditions being easier, and fielding positions, and same teams become nullified. The concept of a 'good/great average' for a Test batsman hasn't changed in the last 100 years - it is still 50 to 60. Bradman towers well above that. Tendulkar doesn't. If you are saying that Tendulkar would have averaged more in that era, so would Lara, Ponting, Dravid, Richards. It is difficult to argue that Tendulkar is the greatest even in this era.

[Johnny1]

I disagree and counter with this. I have seen highlights of this on DVD a few times, and that is one of the most phenomenal innings I've watched - and one I desperately wish I could have watched in full. I've had plenty of people tell me in the past that if Sobers was not an all-rounder - if he had never bowled a ball in his life - then he would have been remembered purely as a batsman, and such a great one that even Lara (the obvious comparison, being similarly flamboyant, left handed and playing for the same team) would have been overshadowed. That innings convinced me - some shots I've not even seen from Lara in his peak periods, with all the precision, timing and genius of Tendulkar against a pretty damn fine attack (and a level of flamboyance that I've rarely seen from either, with the way he was going after Lillee's shorter balls). That said, I am with you on your previous remark re. Tendulkar. You may remember our discussion some time back where we both agreed Tendulkar is one of those players you simply can't analyze like that, through stats or comparative breakdowns against/alongside a Lara, Bradman, Ponting or whoever. This may sound like an elitist fan's comment, but those who understand the game and appreciate it will not need ANY statistics or other nonsense to accept Tendulkar as one of the all time greats. Just watching a knock like the 114 at Perth, or one of his 1998 Sharjah assaults v. Aus, or even something as recent as his Perth innings in 08 will say enough about him. I am convinced that if a person can watch such an innings and not appreciate SRT as one of the greatest players the game has seen for his mastery and genius, then no amount of statistical configuration or well-reasoned arguments will convince them otherwise.

There is no doubt that Tendulkar is ONE of the greatest. But it is difficult to buy that he IS the greatest.

[Mr. Wicket]

I did not say he is the greatest, and do not have the scope of knowledge/perspective on the game to make such a comment. I simply put him as an all time great. There are some players like Tendulkar, Warne, Sobers and Richards that you just need to watch once in their element to realize these are among the greatest players to grace the game. That comment I originally made to goose (a while back) was not in reference to comparisons with Bradman or others, but Tendulkar's standing on his own, despite various people who will try and pull him down using spurious comparisons such as this or stupid statistics. BTW, welcome to ICF. Agree very much with your previous post on Bradman v. his peers. Hope you stick around and keep contributing on these boards.

[goose]

I disagree and counter with this. http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1970S/1971-72/WORLD-XI_IN_AUS/WORLD-XI_AUS_01-06JAN1972.html I have seen highlights of this on DVD a few times, and that is one of the most phenomenal innings I've watched - and one I desperately wish I could have watched in full. I've had plenty of people tell me in the past that if Sobers was not an all-rounder - if he had never bowled a ball in his life - then he would have been remembered purely as a batsman, and such a great one that even Lara (the obvious comparison, being similarly flamboyant, left handed and playing for the same team) would have been overshadowed. That innings convinced me - some shots I've not even seen from Lara in his peak periods, with all the precision, timing and genius of Tendulkar against a pretty damn fine attack (and a level of flamboyance that I've rarely seen from either, with the way he was going after Lillee's shorter balls). That said, I am with you on your previous remark re. Tendulkar. You may remember our discussion some time back where we both agreed Tendulkar is one of those players you simply can't analyze like that, through stats or comparative breakdowns against/alongside a Lara, Bradman, Ponting or whoever. This may sound like an elitist fan's comment, but those who understand the game and appreciate it will not need ANY statistics or other nonsense to accept Tendulkar as one of the all time greats. Just watching a knock like the 114 at Perth, or one of his 1998 Sharjah assaults v. Aus, or even something as recent as his Perth innings in 08 will say enough about him. I am convinced that if a person can watch such an innings and not appreciate SRT as one of the greatest players the game has seen for his mastery and genius, then no amount of statistical configuration or well-reasoned arguments will convince them otherwise.

To be honest my comments regarding 1992 were just banter stemming from a couple of Aussies including Woodcock who marvelled at Tendulkar knocks. I have no conviction of my own there. I agree with you completely regarding not relying on stats to evaluate the man's genius. The sad fact is there aren't too many people well qualified to comment on Tendulkar today such is the span of his long career and the culture of soundbites and statistics. The best placed - and unfortunately perceived by some to be the most irrational and biased - are ordinary Indians like you and I.

[King Tendulkar]

Very humble person. He is talking about "breaking records".

Record hunter! Only intrested in personal records:--D

[Sooda]

Bradman himself said Sobers 254 was the greatest innings he had seen in Aus. That was at the time, since then I am sure a fair few innings have been played. I just dont know if a World XI encounter would carry the same inten sity of a test match. The other thing is that Sobers was under personal pressure at the time, his wife was said to be leaving him but they reconciled later. Going back to the averages point; We cant read too much into them going across eras. I think its impossbile to have a 60 average + consistency nowadays with the amount of cricket being played. Plus even back then Sutcliffe, G Pollock, Headley- all guys with 60+ averages, the lowest after Bradman. I dont think its any coincidence that the latest any of these batsmen were around was the 1960's (?) when Pollock was forced to end his career. The relative lack of cricket, number of teams playing made it a little bit easier to score higher and more often. Hussey started his career so phenomenally but it is impossible to maintain now. Mohammed Yousuf averages higher than Tendulkar does (I think). Go figure.

[Anakin]

Almost like Morphy vs Kasparov. And yes I'll pick Kaspa anyday over Morphy even though some of his peers are quite close to him unlike Morphy.

[Chalks]

Greats of any era stand the test of time. Bradman did, as did Sobers and Richards, and so also does Sachin. I am sure anyone with a modicum of sense* will agree on that. :two_thumbs_up: * which excludes some Aussies, Poms and Padosees of course

[Mr. Wicket]

Bradman himself said Sobers 254 was the greatest innings he had seen in Aus. That was at the time' date=' since then I am sure a fair few innings have been played. I just dont know if a World XI encounter would carry the same inten sity of a test match.[/quote'] From what I have seen of that game, it had plenty of intensity. Lillee especially viewed that series as a chance to really make his mark upon the game, and bowled with some serious fire. His spell in the first innings was breathtaking, and he was rushing/troubling the likes of SMG, Graeme Pollock and Sobers. Amazing bowling. If you are ever able to source a tape/DVD with highlights of that game, it is worth it.

[Guest Gunner]

^^ Another tidbit related to this series is perhaps the 8-29 burst from Lillee against the World XI lineup at perth. IIRC it was the previous test and in that instance Sobers was out without scoring. He came back with 254 in the next test. I have seen the footage of that 8-29 amazing pace, fire and control from Lillee. Sobers was amazed at the distance at which the keeper and slips were standing and asked the Don about it, who just told him "you will see". There are other tidbits about how Sobers was more worried by the moodiness of Thompson rather than the aggression of Lillee.

[Don Sharma]

^^ Another tidbit related to this series is perhaps the 8-29 burst from Lillee against the World XI lineup at perth. IIRC it was the previous test and in that instance Sobers was out without scoring. He came back with 254 in the next test. I have seen the footage of that 8-29 amazing pace' date=' fire and control from Lillee.[/quote'] The World XI were ridiculed for their performance in the previous two tests. I think they got bowled within 15 overs in the first innings at Perth and suffered an innings defeat in that match.

Sobers was amazed at the distance at which the keeper and slips were standing and asked the Don about it, who just told him "you will see".

I think it was Ian Chappell who said those words to him.

There are other tidbits about how Sobers was more worried by the moodiness of Thompson rather than the aggression of Lillee.

Thomo didn't play it the entire series. Bob Maisse and Garth McKenzie were the ones who shared the new ball with Lillee. The series is best remembered for Sir Gary's double but people tend to forget Ian Chappell's four centuries in that series and Graeme Pollock's(was subdued until then) masterclass in the final test which paved way for a 2-1 win in favor of World XI.

[Sooda]

Think I am right in saying Greg Chappel had a pretty good series too. http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/bradman/collection/PRG682_16/PRG682_16_135.jpg VERY small...but, interesting pic. What I dont get is how Saffies were allowed to play even though the team was banned from cricket and wasnt that the reason why the tour took place? To replace the SAf team who should have been touring then..