Need complete overhaul of our bowling

[Fontaine]

If you guys take a deep breath and think through Fontaine's arguments instead of wildly jumping up and down, they make a lot of sense. The point here is not how can they bowl full tosses - what has the pitch got to do with that. The point being made is that non stop bowling on the greatest pattas in the history of humanity has shredded the confidence of all our bowlers. They don't know how to bowl those yorkers anymore because they are no longer in any bowling rhythm. Take Ishant Sharma's example - the continuous over dose of IPL and T20 on pattas has destroyed his bowling. He does not know what is right anymore and how to run in and bowl that right delivery anymore. The same deliveries which were jagging back in and bouncing at Perth and Brisbane are sitting up to be smashed till heavens come. What is he supposed to do? Well, he alters his length, his action, his grip, and pretty much has lost his entire bowling mechanism. Just to expand on the example of yorkers - these bowlers have certain things which they do to bowl a yorker - release from a certain point, certain shoulder movement change etc. But because their confidence and action is shot now, they cannot replicate it unerringly. Whenever a touring team comes to India, their bowlers also get smashed. The difference is that they can go back and work back their form in better conditions. Our bowlers just get slaughtered day in and day out and with the IPL in another couple of months expect them to go down the gutter even more. My suggestion is that if the pitches cannot be improved just keep Zaheer, Ishant, and Sreesanth exclusively for test matches - it won't happen but anyhow. The number of runs the Dindas and Gonys are going to give on these merciless wickets is not going to be much different, but at least our test bowlers will not think that they have lost the ability to bowl.

Good post. I would just add that our bowlers are mostly swing/seam bowlers. Only Ishant naturally relies on the pace and bounce. When the ball doesn't swing more than 5 overs and the pitches don't seam then all we have left is medium pace.

[Fontaine]

Pitches are going to be flat everywhere. Not just India. If India can't improve their bowling and fielding they better kiss good bye to their world cup dreams. Because even noobs like that Srilankan kid just bash these bowlers to oblivion. Other teams can compensate with brilliant fielding. Our bowlers are coincidentally the worst fielders also in the team. Just in case there is a collapse they are rarely useful. If you can't bowl well (because pitches are "flat")' date= can't field well (hope there is no excuse there), can't score a few runs to get us to the end. If you are absolutely uselss why bother playing them. Atleast play some bowlers who can field better and bat better.

That's just a lie. There are flat pitches everywhere yes, but other countries also have pitches where the bowlers get a lot more help. In England the weather alone, never mind the pitch will help with the swing. In Australia/South Africa you get pitches that offer good sharp bounce and seam. Even in Sri Lanka there are pitches that offer good seam movement, or are slow and low so the spinners come into it. And the WC is going to be a lottery next year. While other teams are preparing this year for the world cup and their bowlers are fine tuning their skills, our cricket board is busy preparing them for IPL cricket and more patta cricket.

[Show_stopper]

C'mon..as crap as group B is.. there is no way i am accepting Group A. They would get slaughtered. Atleast these guys will perform decently on helpful decks. Edit: Btw they (Grp A) can do a lot worse!!

[Dravid]

nayar would hit a 100 in bowling every match if he bowled his 10 overs

[vvvslaxman]

So you are okay with bowlers who can't bat, bowl on flat pitches, field well. Brett Lee might go for runs but he could pull off blindres. Would you say the same about Nehra, Zak, Ishant? Because of their fielding alone we have lost so many matches. You basically our bowlers suck because pitches are flat. So what is the use of them in the side? why can't you pick bowlers like Tyagi and give them a chance. Under Warne's coaching every single bowler from Munaf to Trivedi they were pitch perfect with their yorkers in the IPL first edition on the same patta pitches. It is rubbish to blame the pitch and not learn how to bowl. How come Umar Gul bowl yorker after yorker who also grew up on the same flat pitch conditions.

[The Outsider]

^ Just go through the scorecards of the Australia-South Africa series from last year both in Australia and South Africa and you will see the average score would be around 250-260 range. In India, you can forget about the match if you don't have 290-300+. Even in the CB series in Australia when we played there might have been a couple of 300+ scores but most were the 250-260 types.

[asterix]

Very sound excuse of 'patta pitches' being put forward for pathetic bowling..Why do they have to play ODIs? Why not bowlers like Sangwan, Gony etc. given chance in ODIs and those bowlers who have 'lost confidence' be allowed to play Test cricket only? What has lack of confidence or patta pitches got to do with not bowling with skills and variations? Look as Srilankan bowlers..They are always trying to use variations in the bowling like slow bouncers for example to adapt bowling on patta pitches..

[vvvslaxman]

^ Just go through the scorecards of the Australia-South Africa series from last year both in Australia and South Africa and you will see the average score would be around 250-260 range. In India, you can forget about the match if you don't have 290-300+. Even in the CB series in Australia when we played there might have been a couple of 300+ scores but most were the 250-260 types.

That doesn't mean we resign to fact and hope our team to score 300 every time. It is not going to happen. Sooner or later couple of batsmen are going to go out of form. Then India will be in deep trouble. I cannot fathom Indai doing that for long period. We are okay with the situation because some of our top order players are in prime form.

[asterix]

Also it's not just bowling we are concerned of. They have to field well also. I'm sorry but Nehra & Zack suck in fielding..Even if they get few wicket, they will always be liabilities on the field. We have to reduce these baggages and have a proper team of players who are good in majority of aspect of playing cricket..Just being better than average in bowling and pathetic in fielding and batting will not do.. Put as many excuses as you can, but I'm pretty sure India will be kicked out in the first round of ODI WC if we go with the current set of bowlers..

[Fontaine]

Economy rate of Indian bowlers for the last 2 years in the following 4 countries 1) Australia 2) New zealand 3) South Africa 4) West Indies http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=2;host=3;host=4;host=5;orderby=economy_rate;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin1=60;qualval1=balls;spanmin1=07+Jan+2008;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling RP singh 6.33 MM Patel 5.86 Zaheer 5.57 Irfan 5.49 Ishant 5.48 Nehra 5.23 Praveen Kumar 4.81

Let me complete that post for you: Averages for those bowlers in those countries: RP singh 76 MM Patel 106 Zaheer 46 Irfan 34 Ishant 26 Nehra 17 Praveen Kumar 25 Average for those bowlers against those countries IN India: RP singh N/A MM Patel 86.00 Zaheer N/A Irfan N/A Ishant 30 Nehra 40.85 Praveen Kumar 62.25 All of the ones that have played a match against those teams away and at home average better away from India apart from Munaf. And it's a huge difference. No figures for Zaheer or Pathan but looking at how Pathan bowled in the Tests against Australia and Zaheer against England it's obvious those guys would do better away. But never mind that. Go ahead and lie again and say "pitches are flat everywhere."

[The Outsider]

That doesn't mean we resign to fact and hope our team to score 300 every time. It is not going to happen. Sooner or later couple of batsmen are going to go out of form. Then India will be in deep trouble. I cannot fathom Indai doing that for long period. We are okay with the situation because some of our top order players are in prime form.

I am not asking you to resign to any fact and I don't know why you are bringing in fielding into a thread talking about bowling which you started. Our fielding is pathetic, except in Test matches where we are safe catchers. I also think that with the right amount of effort it can be brought up to okayish levels. We weren't this bad same time last year. Things can be done, but not a whole lot unless the pitches being prepared give at least a 25% chance to bowlers. They are about to hire a bowling coach and hopefully that can make some difference but don't expect bowlers to win you matches on these wickets. Batsmen will have to do that. There used to be a reverse swing option but now even that's gone with the mandatory ball change after 34 overs.

[vvvslaxman]

I am not sure what excuse we got for today's match. That was not a total flat track by any means. Ball was stopping and coming. There was no way any other team would have allowed Bangladesh to rack up 290 odd runs. Even Srilanka's weakened attack allowed them only 260 runs. But for Yuvraj we would have conceded 330 to Bangladesh. I have seen various bowlers from various countries playing in India. As far as limited over bowling skills we are the poorest. there are no two ways about that. Hence the cry for bowling coach from Dhoini. He has told it several times. Especially death bowling is horredous.

[yoda]

Aggy can't bat. Irfan is the only difference in there batting wise and our problems are in bowling.

[vvvslaxman]

Only guy i would exclude is Praveen. He bowled brilliantly with plenty of variations. But alas Nehra puts down a catch. And couple more catches went down. I would retain him. He is atleast useful with bat.

[The Outsider]

^ That's the point Fontaine and I are making - you cannot just judge today's match in isolation. I did not watch any of the match today but take your word that 290 was an above par score. The reasons for it lie in the complete loss of form our bowlers have suffered due to constant pattafication. Give them a few matches on helpful tracks and they'll be back - they all have the ability as they have shown in the past.

[Sooda]

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=182030&highlight=overhaul :hehe:

Ive got a plan- they should have a 'career cycle' wherein each paceman plays two years, then takes a 3 year rest before returning- that way the 3 cr@ppy years in between -which seem inevitable for indian pacers, he will not be playing. And hopefully toward the tail end of their careers theyll be ok again-like Zak. So Ishant is nearing the end of his good phase, drop him now. Bring in Tyagi (for his 15 month phase) and Sreesanth (who having been dropped already for about an year or so will be ok again) See where they went wrong with RPS is bringing him back too soon. Drop him now. And Irfan needs about a year or so on the sidelines too, he is always recalled too early. Same for Munaf When Tyagi and Sreesanth end their 'good phase' (in about a year) Bring RPS, and Irfan and MAYBE Ishant back in. Also have a look at whether say Kulkarni can play a year or so of internationals Zak could be the constant in all this. ITLL WORK!

[Fontaine]

So you are okay with bowlers who can't bat' date=' bowl on flat pitches, field well. Brett Lee might go for runs but he could pull off blindres. Would you say the same about Nehra, Zak, Ishant? Because of their fielding alone we have lost so many matches. [b']You basically our bowlers suck because pitches are flat. So what is the use of them in the side? why can't you pick bowlers like Tyagi and give them a chance. Under Warne's coaching every single bowler from Munaf to Trivedi they were pitch perfect with their yorkers in the IPL first edition on the same patta pitches. It is rubbish to blame the pitch and not learn how to bowl. How come Umar Gul bowl yorker after yorker who also grew up on the same flat pitch conditions.

What a bunch of nonsense. I've been critical of Pathan because he can't bowl with a consistent seam. I've been critical of Sreesanth because of his lack of accuracy and so on. I've said numerous times the past few days that our bowlers lack form and confidence. What you HAVE to ask yourself is this: How do you expect our bowlers to get back in form? By continuing to bowl in the IPL, fewer test matches and even more ODIs on flat decks? Why do you think bowlers like RP Singh, Zaheer, Sreesanth come back from England and bowled much better? Yes, their fitness improved in county cricket but mostly as RP and Zaheer have said over there the conditions also help the bowlers so they get to work on their swing deliveries and so on. Do you ever see Swing bowlers coming to India to join domestic cricket here and improve their bowling? :hysterical: The only way foreign international bowlers even thought about coming here was the MRF pace academy for advice in the past but now that's closed off for Indian bowlers. And now it's the IPL and even then bowlers like Broad, Anderson and Aussies skip the IPL because they know bowling here is a complete and utter joke. Just in the past two years the BCCI has closed off the MRF academy for Indian bowlers, shut off English county cricket access for two years because of the ICL, fired the bowling coach that brought along most of these young bowlers and has packed a cricket tour that's full of 300 plus dead flat pitches. WTF did you expect to happen? Most of the people here who complain about the bowling also blamed Prasad. How did that go then, firing our bowling coach? That really improved our bowling right?

[Fontaine]

Also it's not just bowling we are concerned of. They have to field well also. I'm sorry but Nehra & Zack suck in fielding..Even if they get few wicket' date=' they will always be liabilities on the field..[/quote'] This post is so full of sh*t I don't know where to start. How many catches has Zaheer dropped? He had a direct hit to run out a batsmen today. Yes he's a slow fielder but so are most fast bowlers. It's guys like Bhajji, Raina that have been dropping catches every match.

[vvvslaxman]

^ That's the point Fontaine and I are making - you cannot just judge today's match in isolation. I did not watch any of the match today but take your word that 290 was an above par score. The reasons for it lie in the complete loss of form our bowlers have suffered due to constant pattafication. Give them a few matches on helpful tracks and they'll be back - they all have the ability as they have shown in the past.

Here is the thing. World cup is going to happen on patta pitches. You either find a way to bowl effectively of make way for someone else.. Look at Nathan bracken. He has beter economy than his career economy rate in India. How didi Kulasekara end up becoming world no.1 bowler on patta pitches? Even Irfan Pathan reached world no.2 once. It is not like bowlers are not capable of bowling. Just that we are either out of form or simply not upto par.

[vvvslaxman]

This post is so full of sh*t I don't know where to start. How many catches has Zaheer dropped? He had a direct hit to run out a batsmen today. Yes he's a slow fielder but so are most fast bowlers. It's guys like Bhajji, Raina that have been dropping catches every match.

No sir.Because of his pathetic fielding (a 4 went throug his legs) India lost one of the one dayer against Srianka.