Move over Raptor, here comes the Sukhoi T-50

[patriot]

Thank heavens that retards like you do not have anything to do with this. This is a good example of what happens when people have one track mind and one agenda. So you will cut down the defence cost to 0.01%? And pray do tell us all what would you do for defence against China? RAW and IB has nothing to do with it. The fight for Asian supremacy will come down to Economy and Firepower. What are you gonna do when Chinese either procure, or build themselves, all these hi-tech weapons??? Save India by 0.01% expense on RAW and IB? And who here has argued that RAW and IB does not beefing up anyway?? Just creating un-neccesary diversion with half-brain arguments. Moron. xxx

You bloody moron - LEARN TO READ, before getting personal and don't exaggerate to the point where you come to make an @$$ of yourself by making statments like cutting down defense to 0.01 % - where the hell have a I mentioned such ? Also you would be a really silly to deny that making Pakistan very weak viz a viz India - will severely dent China's geopolitical agenda in the region. My argument was that if the defence budget is jacked up by $ 3 -4 billion each yr - it would be a good idea to use $ 500 -$ 600 million to by arms and ammunitions for the massive local seperatist movements in pakistan.

And pray do tell us all what would you do for defence against China? RAW and IB has nothing to do with it.

When you display such pathetic ignorance - you should excuse yourself from posting in such threads. RAW has a massive role to play in all the neighbouring countries apart from Pakistan and it includes China a great great deal as well. Activities like type of support provided by Chinese to overthrow Nepal govt by Maoists ( which has grave significance for India as well ) , arming and funding of ULFA and other seperatist groups viia China is heavily monitored by RAW.

[Clarke]

If I had anything to do with this, I would exponentially increase the budget of our intelligence agengies, particularly RAW and spend whatever it takes to buy out seperatist elements in pakistan in large numbers, arm them to the teeth with deadly weapons and set them loose on the Pakistan army in troubled areas like balochistan and NWFP. This would be money far well spent than buying all the state of the art weapons with probability of use less than 0.01 %.

Thing is we do not know whether the intelligence agencies are underfunded or adequately funded, which is a good thing in terms of the covertness of their operations. Weapons we will need all the time, all major powers of the world possess them and upgrade them all the time and so shall we.

[EnterTheVoid]

If this is an area that interests you, read up on the 1. JSF; Joint Strike Fighter, and 2. The aeronautical capabilities of the Israeli Defense Force, particularly how they used their air advantage to decimate the Arab armies during the June 1967 6 Day war. They bombed the runways, leaving the airplanes unable to take off, making them sitting ducks, which Israel picked off one by one. Israel's 'Rafael' conglomerate of companies is a class apart.

[Pioneer]

It is not wasting money. Pakistan army is the backbone of Pakistan. By continually brutally engaging the pakistan army on 2 fronts ( balochistan and NWFP), you are not only wearing them out - but getting a vast section of peolpe who will be effected by this exchange - into action causing a larger civilian war. If the idea is to break the back of a rogue nuclear neighbor like Pakistan - this is the only way i.e providign massive supplies of hi tech arms and ammunition and fueling hatred among the locasls against Pak army and Pakistan which anyway is dominated by Punjabi SUnni muslims. Pakistan will not wait for us to beat them silly with our airfighters - they will press the nuclear button - so arming and funding the locals in the only way. This was how we created Bangladesh by arming and funding the Mukti bahni and this was how the US drove Soviets out of Afghanistan - by creating the Mujahideen. And this is the only way we get get rid of the nuisance value that Pak has - by further breaking it down into 2 more countries. The fire in the atmosphere is already there , all India needs to do is fuel it. Balochistan has a massive seperatist movement going on - Pakistan army is NOT EVEN present there. And we all know about NWFP - they are beating the hell out of the Pak army and hell bent on creating a seperate country called Pakhtunistan consisting of present day NWFP and a certain bodering area in Afghanistan.

Do you even own a television?

[achilles]

:aha: Sukhoi FTW :aha:

[Lurker]

Also you would be a really silly to deny that making Pakistan very weak viz a viz India - will severely dent China's geopolitical agenda in the region.

Grow up ace. Stop looking at everything with a pakistan angle. If retards like you run South Block we would spend ample money on Pakistan and China would have marched ahead, which they have in most cases anyway. If we do not start playing catch up we would always be lagged behind, thanks to right wing lunatics like you.

My argument was that if the defence budget is jacked up by $ 3 -4 billion each yr - it would be a good idea to use $ 500 -$ 600 million to by arms and ammunitions for the massive local seperatist movements in pakistan.

You are a complete retard, arent you? Do you, for example, know that RAW annual budget is speculated to be between 30-150 million USD?? Feel free to look up the web for that. What you are suggesting is to make it 20 times, by conservative estimate, or atleast 4 times(if you go by 150 figure) in a year!! Thats like 2000% or 400%! Ever heard of that kind of moronic argument? if not consider yourself schooled once again.

Activities like type of support provided by Chinese to overthrow Nepal govt by Maoists ( which has grave significance for India as well ) , arming and funding of ULFA and other seperatist groups viia China is heavily monitored by RAW.

lol..Your understanding of RAW is absolutely retarded. If it was upto you all RAW would be doing was to fund terrorists in South Asia! RAW is supposed to be an Intelligence agency. It is NOT supposed to be funding terrorists in Pakistan, China, Nepal, Sri Lanka and what have. Seriously do you have no understanding of geo-polity or do you simply suffer from high blood pressure all the time???? xxx

[patriot]

Grow up ace. Stop looking at everything with a pakistan angle. If retards like you run South Block we would spend ample money on Pakistan and China would have marched ahead, which they have in most cases anyway. If we do not start playing catch up we would always be lagged behind, thanks to right wing lunatics like you.

Luzlers..you joker. In your lousy attempt to actually win an argument over me you are backing the senile septuagenarian babus that majority of country despises. How well those geniuses at South Block have have managed the neighbourhood that a country 1/11th of our economic size has repeated launched devastating terrorist strikes with consummate ease for the last 2 decades and got us to the peace discussion table repeatedly only to continue with its nefarious designs. Did you take a look at the pictures of how pathetically dead bodies were carried out of the Taj during 26/11 ...and this is the India we are trying to market in the Davos' of the world as a superpower. Superpower my @$$. How well those jokers at South block have been doign their job that Maoism has spread like wild fire from Bengal upto Tamil Nadu. If the educated mass of the country ( are you ?) has such a pi$$ poor understanding about the performance of those South Block geniuses, then we can't blame the majority illiterate of bringing to power thugs, repeatedly. Seriously, you display such poor common sense and knowhow, you are not even fricking worthy of having a discussion.

You are a complete retard, arent you? Do you, for example, know that RAW annual budget is speculated to be between 30-150 million USD?? Feel free to look up the web for that. What you are suggesting is to make it 20 times, by conservative estimate, or atleast 4 times(if you go by 150 figure) in a year!! Thats like 2000% or 400%! Ever heard of that kind of moronic argument? if not consider yourself schooled once again.

Dumbo , the budget of intelligence agencies is just what their operations are - a speculation, because a higher figure is bound to cause panic in the neighbourhood and trigger a chain reaction. AGAIN DUMBO - LEARN TO READ,WRITE AND COMPREHEND. I suggested using about $ 450 -500 million of an annual increment in budget of about $ 4 billion for covert seperatist operations in Pakistan. Where have I suggested 20 times, blind man ? That would be about 3 times the higher budget estimate that you are quoting not 20 times. 4th standard maths, kiddo.

lol..Your understanding of RAW is absolutely retarded. If it was upto you all RAW would be doing was to fund terrorists in South Asia! RAW is supposed to be an Intelligence agency. It is NOT supposed to be funding terrorists in Pakistan, China, Nepal, Sri Lanka and what have. Seriously do you have no understanding of geo-polity or do you simply suffer from high blood pressure all the time????

You jack....I probably have more know of geo politics than you will in several lifetimes. You don't even know the purpose of an external intelligence agency which RAW is . Nice, @$$ you are making out of yourself in full public view here by displaying your ignorance. Go read about the role of RAW in arming Mukti Bahnis in East Pakistan. Go read about the role of RAW in Sri Lanka prior to Rajiv Gandhis assasination. Go read the role of RAW in absorbing Sikkim into the Indian union. RAW and the military are greatly intertwined. A large number of RAW senior officials / chiefs are ex -military who have a lot of experience in the border region. Phew, what a waste of time you are.

[Texy]

no point in arguing with Lurker...he has planted the green flag long time ago

[seedhi]

RAW is supposed to be an Intelligence agency. It is NOT supposed to be funding terrorists in Pakistan' date=' China, Nepal, Sri Lanka and what have. [/quote']What a ridiculous statement to make, it has no historical or factual basis and if followed as a strategy would be suicidal. Under the current environment it is even morally wrong to follow what you suggest.

[seedhi]

Go read about the role of RAW in arming Mukti Bahnis in East Pakistan. Go read about the role of RAW in Sri Lanka prior to Rajiv Gandhis assasination. Go read the role of RAW in absorbing Sikkim into the Indian union.

Dont forget the role of RAW in keeping Karachi boiling in the 90s. Until that traitor IK Gujral dismantled the RAW network in Karachi as a "goodwill" gesture to Nawaz Sharif. As I have said before, right now pakistan is teeming with people willing or even wishing to blow themselves who can and should be used optimally to create limitless havoc in that country. There shouldnt be any qualms about this, once the following fact is accepted: There is a jehadi terrorist lurking inside every pakistani. Unfortunately, there are some here who refuse to acknowledge the above.

[Pioneer]

Dont forget the role of RAW in keeping Karachi boiling in the 90s. Until that traitor IK Gujral dismantled the RAW network in Karachi as a "goodwill" gesture to Nawaz Sharif. As I have said before, right now pakistan is teeming with people willing or even wishing to blow themselves who can and should be used optimally to create limitless havoc in that country. There shouldnt be any qualms about this, once the following fact is accepted: There is a jehadi terrorist lurking inside every pakistani. Unfortunately, there are some here who refuse to acknowledge the above.

People like you make me laugh at India.

[patriot]

People like you make me laugh at India.

But the truth of the matter is the entire world is laughing at Pakistan unabashedly. I think that should worry you more.

[Pioneer]

^^ OUCH! :two_thumbs_up:

[Lurker]

Luzlers..you joker. In your lousy attempt to actually win an argument over me you are backing the senile septuagenarian babus that majority of country despises. How well those geniuses at South Block have have managed the neighbourhood that a country 1/11th of our economic size has repeated launched devastating terrorist strikes with consummate ease for the last 2 decades and got us to the peace discussion table repeatedly only to continue with its nefarious designs. Did you take a look at the pictures of how pathetically dead bodies were carried out of the Taj during 26/11 ...and this is the India we are trying to market in the Davos' of the world as a superpower. Superpower my @$$.How well those jokers at South block have been doign their job that Maoism has spread like wild fire from Bengal upto Tamil Nadu.

Amidst the blood vessel bursting BP you suffer from was there any point at all? Still fuming and ranting retard?

If the educated mass of the country ( are you ?) has such a pi$$ poor understanding about the performance of those South Block geniuses, then we can't blame the majority illiterate of bringing to power thugs, repeatedly. Seriously, you display such poor common sense and knowhow, you are not even fricking worthy of having a discussion.

:hysterical::hysterical:

Dumbo , the budget of intelligence agencies is just what their operations are - a speculation, because a higher figure is bound to cause panic in the neighbourhood and trigger a chain reaction.

It a nutshell. Patriot has NO Idea of the amount of expense, and suggests 3-4 times the increase! :hysterical::hysterical: Pray while you are at it make it 300-400 times :hysterical: Retard

I suggested using about $ 450 -500 million of an annual increment in budget of about $ 4 billion for covert seperatist operations in Pakistan. Where have I suggested 20 times, blind man ? That would be about 3 times the higher budget estimate that you are quoting not 20 times. 4th standard maths, kiddo.

To be frank you have not suggested ANYTHING! Even the figurs were put up by me, not your fine NRI ass. Why dont you give some concrete numbers that we can debate upon? Oh wait you are a clueless retard. Carry on! :--D

You jack....I probably have more know of geo politics than you will in several lifetimes. You don't even know the purpose of an external intelligence agency which RAW is .

:hysterical::hysterical: I may disagree with you but I shall give credit where its due. Noone, on this MB anyway, comes close in trumpeting how much he/she knows. Mr. Jackass I shall decide what YOU know, not YOU. Comprende?

Go read about the role of RAW in arming Mukti Bahnis in East Pakistan. Go read about the role of RAW in Sri Lanka prior to Rajiv Gandhis assasination. Go read the role of RAW in absorbing Sikkim into the Indian union. RAW and the military are greatly intertwined. A large number of RAW senior officials / chiefs are ex -military who have a lot of experience in the border region. Phew, what a waste of time you are.

No no please do educate us all here. Instead of usual rhetorics do show us what RAW was doing in Sri Lanka for example. Simply put - Put up or shut up retard:winky:

[Lurker]

What a ridiculous statement to make' date=' it has no historical or factual basis and if followed as a strategy would be suicidal. Under the current environment it is even morally wrong to follow what you suggest.[/quote'] Elaborate there Seedhi, what is factually incorrect and why would be suicidal.

There shouldnt be any qualms about this, once the following fact is accepted: There is a jehadi terrorist lurking inside every pakistani.

Forget what I wrote earlier. if thats your mindset, every Pakistani is a jehadi, then I already know where your arguments shall come from :--D

[patriot]

Amidst the blood vessel bursting BP you suffer from was there any point at all? Still fuming and ranting retard? :hysterical::hysterical: It a nutshell. Patriot has NO Idea of the amount of expense, and suggests 3-4 times the increase! :hysterical::hysterical: Pray while you are at it make it 300-400 times :hysterical: Retard To be frank you have not suggested ANYTHING! Even the figurs were put up by me, not your fine NRI ass. Why dont you give some concrete numbers that we can debate upon? Oh wait you are a clueless retard. Carry on! :--D :hysterical::hysterical: I may disagree with you but I shall give credit where its due. Noone, on this MB anyway, comes close in trumpeting how much he/she knows. Mr. Jackass I shall decide what YOU know, not YOU. Comprende? No no please do educate us all here. Instead of usual rhetorics do show us what RAW was doing in Sri Lanka for example. Simply put - Put up or shut up retard:winky:

All that the lurking pig, Lurker has done is raised a stink with his downright ignorance. Ignorance thats being pi$$ed at by one and all. You want me to show you what RAW was doing in Lanka over a MB you dimwit ? :hysterical: Is that the extent to which you need things hammered in your handful of grey cells ? The only thing that you need to be shown here is the direction to the logout button to prevent you from further exposing your sheer ignorance and I think I speak for the majority here - atleast going by the way other folks have peed all over your ignorant posts.

[seedhi]

Elaborate there Seedhi' date=' what is factually incorrect and why would be suicidal.[/quote']Sticking to the facts, RAW had a role in funding and supporting various insurgencies in neighboring countries in the past. Several of them yielded extremely favorable results for India. Therefore what you say is factually, historically and strategically incorrect. Here is what the wikipedia page on RAW says, you can follow the references to know more detail.

In the early 1970s the army of Pakistan prosecuted a bloody military crackdown in response to the Bangladesh independence movement.[34][35] Nearly 10 million refugees fled to India. The R&AW's Bangladesh operation began in early 1970 by sowing discord among the disgruntled population of Bangladesh (then called East Pakistan), suffering repression by the Pakistani political establishment. This led to the creation of the Mukti Bahini. RAW was responsible for supplying information and heavy ammunition to this organization.

Bordered by Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan and West Bengal in the Eastern Himalayas, Sikkim was ruled by a Maharaja. The Indian Government had recognized the title of Chogyal (Dharma Raja) for the Maharaja of Sikkim. In 1972, R&AW was authorized to install a pro-Indian democratic government there. In less than three years, Sikkim became the 22nd State of the Indian Union, on April 26, 1975.[3]

Note the treachery of IK Gujral in the following.

In the mid 1980's, R&AW set up two covert groups, Counterintelligence Team-X(CIT-X) and Counterintelligence Team-J(CIT-J), the first directed at Pakistan[42] and the second at Khalistani groups. Rabinder Singh, the R&AW double agent who defected to the United States in 2004, helped run CIT-J in its early years. Both these covert groups used the services of cross-border traffickers to ferry weapons and funds across the border, much as their ISI counterparts were doing. According to former R&AW official and noted security analyst B. Raman, the Indian counter-campaign yielded results. "The role of our cover action capability in putting an end to the ISI's interference in Punjab", he wrote in 2002, "by making such interference prohibitively costly is little known and understood." These covert operations were discontinued during the tenure of IK Gujral never restarted.[43]

R&AW started training the LTTE to keep a check on Sri Lanka, which had helped Pakistan in the Indo-Pak War by allowing Pakistani ships to refuel at Sri Lankan ports.

After the rise of Pakistan and American backed Taliban in Afghanistan, India decided to side with the Northern Alliance and the Soviet Union [60] By 1996, R&AW had built a 25 bed military hospital[61] at the Farkhor Air Base.[62] This airport was used by the Aviation Research Centre, the reconnaissance arm of R&AW, to repair and operate the Northern Alliance's aerial support. This relationship was further cemented in the 2001 Afgan war. India supplied the Northern Alliance high altitude warfare equipment worth around $8–10 million.[63][64] R&AW was the first intelligence agency to determine the extent of the Kunduz airlift.[65]

Surrounded by Arakans and dense forest, Myanmar had always been a worrisome point for Indian intelligence. As the major player in the area, India has sought to promote democracy and install friendly governments in the region. To these ends, R&AW cultivated Burmese rebel groups and pro-democracy coalitions, especially the Kachin Independence Army (KIA). India allowed the KIA to carry a limited trade in jade and precious stones using Indian territory and even supplied them weapons. It is further alleged that KIA chief Maran Brang Seng met the R&AW chief in Delhi twice.

[Clarke]

$30 billion It better be invisible on every god damn radar the padosis can procure :D

[hari504504]

$30 billion It better be invisible on every god damn radar the padosis can procure :D

Those would be absolute gamechangers for us w.r.t to Pak and China.. But look at the facts..It will take 8-10 years for even one squadron of these to be fully inducted into our airforce.. By then China would use its tried and tested 'R&D' technique of espionage to get details on the plane(maybe even a blueprint) and have a cheap copy ready by then using their massive defence industrial complex...there is no way they are going to let the balance tilt so bad in the subcontinent...

[achilles]

$30billion. That is some deal.