Move over Raptor, here comes the Sukhoi T-50

[Ram]

Russia tests stealth fighter jet built by Sukhoi A new stealth fighter has made its maiden flight in Russia's far east. The Sukhoi T-50 jet spent 47 minutes in the air over Komsomolsk-on-Amur and test pilot Sergei Bogdan said "it is easy and comfortable to pilot". The jet - also known by the Russian designation PAK FA - is seen as a potential rival to the US F-22 Raptor, which first flew in 1997. The "fifth generation" jet is designed to be invisible to radar. Russia's air force hopes to acquire it in 2015. The new jet has been developed in partnership with India. It is seen as a significant milestone in Russia's efforts to modernise its Soviet-era military hardware. Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan said he was convinced that the project would "excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening of the defence power of the Russian and Indian air forces, but also gain a significant share of the world market". The company says the jet's stealth features considerably enhance its combat effectiveness in all weathers. Its features include: all-weather capability, ability to use a take-off strip of just 300-400 metres, capacity for sustained supersonic flight including repeated in-flight refuelling, advanced avionics, simultaneous attacks on air and ground targets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8486812.stm ------------------------------------------------------- If and indeed it is true that the proposed fighter is invisible to radar, then it is a significant boost to our nuclear deterrent and ensuring that we have the ability of a second-strike. The news report says the fighter is said to be inducted into the Russian Air-force by 2015, which probably means we will get it by 2017-2018. We're also soon to get delivery of the Israeli-built, AWACS (Air-born Early Warning and Control systems) systems, which will make a fundamental difference to the air-theater in South Asia. If we soon acquire this 5th generation fighter, our military's capability will comprehensively outstrip that of Pakistan's and will pose a substantial threat to the Chinese air-defence. P.S; I love the Russians! :icflove:

[Rajiv]

Da

[Ram]

Btw, the F-22 Raptor was a two decade old, multi-billion dollar project that over-ran its initial estimates by several times. And now, in a push to control to tame the runaway deficit, the US DoD has actually shelved this programme, given how punitive its cost are. While all this was happening, the Russians have silently built a comparitive fighter (lets not kid our selves, The Raptor is still the meanest, baddest rogue in the sky), at a fraction of the costs and in less than half of the time taken by the nerds at Lockheed Martin. And remarkably, we're among the select group of countries in the entire world that not only purchases state-of-the-art military hardware from the West (US, Europe, Israel), but also from the East (Russians). The Russians wont the sell the Chinese the most advanced and sophisticated version of the Sukhoi 30 - MKI (The 'I' in that stands for 'India', I think) and the Israelis wont sell the worlds most advances air-borne defence systems to the Chinese, but chose to do so to the Indians. For far too long, almost shamefully, the Pakistani military have managed to have at least some semblance of parity in conventional weapons (Even now, it is being rumored that their missiles are actually better than ours), even though their defence budget was a fraction of ours. But now, with our defence spending growing at an exponential rate, we have made a slew of arms purchases in the recent past that has all but smashed this conventional parity. Of course, some may argue that our biggest threat in the region is not Pakistan but China and we still have some way to go before we can match them. Point to note; We may have succeeded in surpassing Pakistan in the conventional weapons sphere, but still have the nukes and THAT, changes the entire balance of things.

[yoda]

It is great that we are building this together. I would love for the day when we can just build our own stuff without begging others for it.

[Ram]

It is great that we are building this together. I would love for the day when we can just build our own stuff without begging others for it.

It'll take time. Keep in mind, till a couple of decades ago, we had almost no military Industry to speak of, partly because we relied upon the Soviet to give us everything and mainly because we simply didnt have the intellectual and financial capital to have one. But things are changing fast. India is quickly emerging as the hub of low-cost, yet hi-tech source of a range of civilian and military technologies. Take of the example our space programme - the way in which they have achieved so much using such little resources has left the rest of the space organizations of the world scratching their heads. Of course, after all that positive-talk, here's a dose of reality. After all this progress, our defence budget is roughly $20 bn/year. Any guesses as to how much the US spends on its military every year, even at these moments of financial distress? It is a staggering $350 bn/year!

[yoda]

Of course, after all that positive-talk, here's a dose of reality. After all this progress, our defence budget is roughly $20 bn/year. Any guesses as to how much the US spends on its military every year, even at these moments of financial distress? It is a staggering $350 bn/year!

$20 bn is not bad. IIRC we are in the top 10 countries or so. US is insane as far as defense spending is concerned and I think that accounts for about half the world's total.

[Online]

nice thread MM, thanks for the info

[Lurker]

P.S; I love the Russians! :icflove:

Me too :hatsoff: If only we did not have unstable countries(read Pakistan and Afganistan) our diplomatic and historic closeness to both Iran and Russia would ensure our deep requirement for Oil and oil based products would remain intact. One reason why China supports Pakistan so we dont develop a pipeline to these two countries. On the topic I am more thrilled to see Indian participation in the development. We have to move from mere consumers to producers. With booming economy and deepening pockets there is no reason why we should be dependent on others to give us what we need.

[Ram]

$20 bn is not bad. IIRC we are in the top 10 countries or so. US is insane as far as defense spending is concerned and I think that accounts for about half the world's total.

Even in the $20 bn figure, not all of it goes to defence purchases. In fact, a big chunk of it goes to the paying the salaries of our armed forces, paying for their housing, rations etc. Another piece goes to funding the counter-insurgency operations that have in various parts of our county like Kashmir and the North-East. Another piece goes to sponsoring the various para-military forces like the CISF (Central Industry Security force, the guys tasked wit protecting some of our vital installations like Nuclear reactors etc).' My best guesstimate is that every year, we spend somewhere b/w $3-$5 bn, buying new hardware. And even the money is sanctioned, it is generally caught up in a maze of political and bureaucratic wrangling.

[Lurker]

Of course' date=' after all that positive-talk, here's a dose of reality. After all this progress, our defence budget is roughly $20 bn/year. Any guesses as to how much the US spends on its military every year, even at these moments of financial distress? It is a staggering $350 bn/year![/quote'] Not overly worried about that. Defence expenses for US is much different of course. Just to retain bases overseas(and they have it in well over 30-40 countries) would probably cost 1/3rd or even more of that number. With an economy that is greatly in debt either US will have to cut its defence cost or completely overhaul economy, which does not look possible. Also bear in mind the huge expense on defence is what in the end bankrupted Russia.

[Ram]

Not overly worried about that. Defence expenses for US is much different of course. Just to retain bases overseas(and they have it in well over 30-40 countries) would probably cost 1/3rd or even more of that number. With an economy that is greatly in debt either US will have to cut its defence cost or completely overhaul economy, which does not look possible. Also bear in mind the huge expense on defence is what in the end bankrupted Russia.

That is true. The US has so far spent a combined $1tn dollars in the two Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Essentially, they're borrowing to wage war.

On the topic I am more thrilled to see Indian participation in the development. We have to move from mere consumers to producers. With booming economy and deepening pockets there is no reason why we should be dependent on others to give us what we need.

That is an excellent point. First, it was the Brahmos, which was a hugely successful project. Now, there's news of co-operation in this. But honestly though, from a purely Indian perspective, I wouldnt get overly excited. I am sure the Russians designed and manufactures the meat and bones of the aircraft, we probably added just the feathers. If my memory serves me right, our contribution was strictly restricted to the digital fly-by-wire avionics system that is said to improve overall flight control. Of course, in the world of hi-tech hardware, a difference of .5% improvement in performance could be the difference b/w life and death.

[Guest Gunner]

Btw, the F-22 Raptor was a two decade old, multi-billion dollar project that over-ran its initial estimates by several times. And now, in a push to control to tame the runaway deficit, the US DoD has actually shelved this programme, given how punitive its cost are. While all this was happening, the Russians have silently built a comparitive fighter (lets not kid our selves, The Raptor is still the meanest, baddest rogue in the sky), at a fraction of the costs and in less than half of the time taken by the nerds at Lockheed Martin. And remarkably, we're among the select group of countries in the entire world that not only purchases state-of-the-art military hardware from the West (US, Europe, Israel), but also from the East (Russians). The Russians wont the sell the Chinese the most advanced and sophisticated version of the Sukhoi 30 - MKI (The 'I' in that stands for 'India', I think) and the Israelis wont sell the worlds most advances air-borne defence systems to the Chinese, but chose to do so to the Indians. For far too long, almost shamefully, the Pakistani military have managed to have at least some semblance of parity in conventional weapons (Even now, it is being rumored that their missiles are actually better than ours), even though their defence budget was a fraction of ours. But now, with our defence spending growing at an exponential rate, we have made a slew of arms purchases in the recent past that has all but smashed this conventional parity. Of course, some may argue that our biggest threat in the region is not Pakistan but China and we still have some way to go before we can match them. Point to note; We may have succeeded in surpassing Pakistan in the conventional weapons sphere, but still have the nukes and THAT, changes the entire balance of things.

To correct some misconceptions, 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II this is the aircraft which is a direct competitor to the Sukhoi T50 not the raptor. 2) India was a joint developer and a financier of the PAK-FA project right from the beginning so this time we were not customers but actually collobarators. Our involvement in this project was to a greater degree than the Brahmos missile. 3) Russia does sell the Sukhoi jets to China (SU 30 MKKs) and in fact they sold them more of those planes than they sold us. The chinese JF17 fighter has lot of reverse engineered tech from the Sukhois and the F15 tomcats. 4) We currently have air domination over all of Pakistan not just air superiority based on the Sukhois we currently possess. The situation was so bad for Pakistan that until recently they didn't even possess BVR missiles on their aircrafts which meant that they couldn't lock on and fire until they saw the target. As far as Pakistan goes there are many other weaknesses which they have that would take a lot of time to explain. 5) We have to see how the trails go for this plane before we come to a conclusion on when it can be inducted. Remember the LCA tejas?

[Clarke]

Is this gonna be as good in terms of radar footprint and other stealth metrics ?

[Clarke]

We're also soon to get delivery of the Israeli-built, AWACS (Air-born Early Warning and Control systems) systems, which will make a fundamental difference to the air-theater in South Asia. If we soon acquire this 5th generation fighter, our military's capability will comprehensively outstrip that of Pakistan's and will pose a substantial threat to the Chinese air-defence. P.S; I love the Russians! :icflove:

Pakistan is getting the SAAB AEWC 2000 system as well. It is said that the American/Israeli systems are the best but i am not aware of any direct comparison. Whats to love is not Russia but our foreign policy. We can buy from Russians/Americans/French/Swedes/Brits/Brazilians/italians or in general almost all major defense exporters (thats a big deal!) other than China which honestly has not had any real warfare trials of its technologies.

[patriot]

These are like the worst insurance policies of the Indian military budget. We spend billions on all these state of the art stealth airfighters , radars, drones,aircraft carrier etc...but when a Kargil happens - our jawans are found wanting for lack of equipments. We needed immediate equipment aid from Israel when Kargil happened. This is what make me look at all this with alot of scepticism. If I had anything to do with this, I would exponentially increase the budget of our intelligence agengies, particularly RAW and spend whatever it takes to buy out seperatist elements in pakistan in large numbers, arm them to the teeth with deadly weapons and set them loose on the Pakistan army in troubled areas like balochistan and NWFP. This would be money far well spent than buying all the state of the art weapons with probability of use less than 0.01 %.

[rahulrulezz]

These are like the worst insurance policies of the Indian military budget. We spend billions on all these state of the art stealth airfighters , radars, drones,aircraft carrier etc...but when a Kargil happens - our jawans are found wanting for lack of equipments. We needed immediate equipment aid from Israel when Kargil happened. This is what make me look at all this with alot of scepticism. If I had anything to do with this, I would exponentially increase the budget of our intelligence agengies, particularly RAW and spend whatever it takes to buy out seperatist elements in pakistan in large numbers, arm them to the teeth with deadly weapons and set them loose on the Pakistan army in troubled areas like balochistan and NWFP. This would be money far well spent than buying all the state of the art weapons with probability of use less than 0.01 %.

then what would be the diffference between us and ISI...Rather than wasting our money on defense, I would rather use to for our infrastructure and developement.. dont forget, we have largest number of poor people in the world.. We can't hide them for long.. If India wants to be superpower,we have to remove Poverty

[punjabi_khota]

I don't think we are going to get anywhere if the bulk of R&D remains in the hands of DRDO labs. There is a very real need for private sector to step up, and also the government to be more open and forthcoming w.r.t collabration with private companies to develop state of the art weapons and other technologies needed in defence. The well known fact is that DRDO/ISRO scientists (PhDs from all over the place..India and US) get paid fraction of what lot of engineering B.Techs get at age 21 if they join private sector. I don't see government making DRDO salaries much higher in near future, so the next best thing would be to have aspiring scientists work for private companies who can compensate them properly, attract best people and work in collaboration with DRDO. Most scientists care more about science than they care about their country (i.e. patriotism etc) and there surely is a lot of exciting work to be done in this area, so if compensation goes up , I see lot more people jumping into this area.

[Ram]

To correct some misconceptions, 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II this is the aircraft which is a direct competitor to the Sukhoi T50 not the raptor.

Well, the Sukhoi T-50 is being touted as a rival to the F-22 Raptor, both in the media and in military circles. I can understand why you think its the F-35 that is the PAK FA's real competitor, but purely in terms of stealth capabilities, I think the T 50 can be compared to the Raptor.

2) India was a joint developer and a financier of the PAK-FA project right from the beginning so this time we were not customers but actually collobarators. Our involvement in this project was to a greater degree than the Brahmos missile.

I have already acknowledged our role. But our contribution has limited to supplying some critical software, certain aspects of the head-up display and composite structure. It is certainly substantial contribution, but not the meat and bones of the aircraft.

3) Russia does sell the Sukhoi jets to China (SU 30 MKKs) and in fact they sold them more of those planes than they sold us. The chinese JF17 fighter has lot of reverse engineered tech from the Sukhois and the F15 tomcats.

Yes, I know they supplied the Chinese with the MKK variants, but the MKI variants given to the Indians is said to be the most superior of all Su 30 variants because the avionics for the MKI version was jointly developed by the Indians, Russians, French and Israelis.

4) We currently have air domination over all of Pakistan not just air superiority based on the Sukhois we currently possess. The situation was so bad for Pakistan that until recently they didn't even possess BVR missiles on their aircrafts which meant that they couldn't lock on and fire until they saw the target. As far as Pakistan goes there are many other weaknesses which they have that would take a lot of time to explain.

I wasnt specifically referring to any one aspect of military, but I think its fair thing to say that, till say 10-15 years, both our militaries were on similar footing in conventional terms.

5) We have to see how the trails go for this plane before we come to a conclusion on when it can be inducted. Remember the LCA tejas?

Cannot even compare the development programs of T 50 and Tejas. Tejas was an attempt by Indians to design a 4.5 generation fighter, when till previously, they had only created a 2nd generation fighter nearly 40 years ago. Sukhoi has a distinguished history of fighter jet making. In all probability, they'll make their deadlines.

[patriot]

then what would be the diffference between us and ISI...Rather than wasting our money on defense' date=' I would rather use to for our infrastructure and developement.. dont forget, we have largest number of poor people in the world.. We can't hide them for long.. If India wants to be superpower,we have to remove Poverty[/quote'] It is not wasting money. Pakistan army is the backbone of Pakistan. By continually brutally engaging the pakistan army on 2 fronts ( balochistan and NWFP), you are not only wearing them out - but getting a vast section of peolpe who will be effected by this exchange - into action causing a larger civilian war. If the idea is to break the back of a rogue nuclear neighbor like Pakistan - this is the only way i.e providign massive supplies of hi tech arms and ammunition and fueling hatred among the locasls against Pak army and Pakistan which anyway is dominated by Punjabi SUnni muslims. Pakistan will not wait for us to beat them silly with our airfighters - they will press the nuclear button - so arming and funding the locals in the only way. This was how we created Bangladesh by arming and funding the Mukti bahni and this was how the US drove Soviets out of Afghanistan - by creating the Mujahideen. And this is the only way we get get rid of the nuisance value that Pak has - by further breaking it down into 2 more countries. The fire in the atmosphere is already there , all India needs to do is fuel it. Balochistan has a massive seperatist movement going on - Pakistan army is NOT EVEN present there. And we all know about NWFP - they are beating the hell out of the Pak army and hell bent on creating a seperate country called Pakhtunistan consisting of present day NWFP and a certain bodering area in Afghanistan.

[Lurker]

If I had anything to do with this, I would exponentially increase the budget of our intelligence agengies, particularly RAW and spend whatever it takes to buy out seperatist elements in pakistan in large numbers, arm them to the teeth with deadly weapons and set them loose on the Pakistan army in troubled areas like balochistan and NWFP. This would be money far well spent than buying all the state of the art weapons with probability of use less than 0.01 %.

Thank heavens that retards like you do not have anything to do with this. This is a good example of what happens when people have one track mind and one agenda. So you will cut down the defence cost to 0.01%? And pray do tell us all what would you do for defence against China? RAW and IB has nothing to do with it. The fight for Asian supremacy will come down to Economy and Firepower. What are you gonna do when Chinese either procure, or build themselves, all these hi-tech weapons??? Save India by 0.01% expense on RAW and IB? And who here has argued that RAW and IB does not beefing up anyway?? Just creating un-neccesary diversion with half-brain arguments. Moron. xxx