For tests : Raina or Kohli?

[The Outsider]

There is no evidence of kohli building an innings against a significantly strong attack. Its not going to happen anytime soon either. he will score occasionally at best.

Lee, Johnson, Siddle, and Clark not good enough for you?

[Cricketics]

Some kind of knocks should definately be considered as a critieria. The kind of knocks which bail the team out from a terrible situation and the player who has bailed out goes on to play till the end. Thats definitely the rite way of considering a player for test.

[youngindia]

Talk about exaggeration and hyperbole! Hostile attacks? ROTFLMAO! Pakistan attack at Centurion was hostile compared to Roach and Tonge

third string wi team and these guys are as raw as kohli.Infact Roach played in the same u 19 WC as kohli! i am asking you evidence against senior,strong bowlers who will examine his rookie game and expose him. I am discounting SL for the same reason. Vaas and murali have either faded or not playing. The pakistani team had senior bowllers ,one of whom took him out

And against Australia, it wasn't that he was uncomfortable against the pace.

There are a lot of reasons you don't score vs australia. one is you feel the pressure severely with tight bowling and tight fields.. your game has to be big enough to withstand the pressure. It was clear he could not pass the tough tests.atleast at this stage.

Oh really? How about you name 10 top class international batsmen in the 130 year history of cricket who have had mediocre First Class records if First Class cricket is no evidence of the ability to play and build long innings?

you got your logic messed up here. You have to remember all these top players were immature or not established at the time of their debuts. the big example is that of viv richards. didn't prevent him from beocming a champion. young players have been picked without any great FC pedigree and on talent alone. that's my point. FC records at this stage(immature) is not reliable and does not show an ability to play long knocks in tests. example.hayden scored in domestic cricket. kept failing in international cricket for 8 years. laxman .again a heavy domestic performer. on and off until 2001. gambhir. not until 2008. it goes on and on.

[youngindia]

Lee' date=' Johnson, Siddle, and Clark not good enough for you?[/quote'] can you note that jaffer and yuvraj(who made paltry runs in aus) also made runs in that game? The practise games are about practise . there have been instances where ramesh powar thrashed mcgrath. won't happen in a full test. That game is no evdience of kohli's or rohit's ability to play long knocks at international level. hughes scored 2 hundreds vs SA. that did not mean he was mature. flintoff duly exposed him. its not going to happen realistically when you consider the track record of several international batsmen. lots of international batsmen have taken time to be proven test performers by playing long knocks consistently. and they struggle even more against top class attacks. for example dravid scored his first 100 vs australia after several thrashings.

[The Outsider]

third string wi team and these guys are as raw as kohli.Infact Roach played in the same u 19 WC as kohli! i am asking you evidence against senior,strong bowlers who will examine his rookie game and expose him. I am discounting SL for the same reason. Vaas and murali have either faded or not playing. The pakistani team had senior bowllers ,one of whom took him out

I am wasting my time here if you are judging a batsman because he got out to Afridi, but let me try once again - Kohli scored a century against Lee, Johnson, Clark, and Siddle in the longer format of the game for which his selection is being discussed. Three of them senior bowlers, all of them strong bowlers who failed to expose him apparently. That you continue to harp on about the Pakistan bowling attack on a patta Centurion track and choose to ignore his success against Murali and Mendis in Sri Lanka after our "senior" batsmen had been made to look like novices is also hilarious.

There are a lot of reasons you don't score vs australia. one is you feel the pressure severely with tight bowling and tight fields.. your game has to be big enough to withstand the pressure. It was clear he could not pass the tough tests.atleast at this stage.

On the basis of 2 ODIs? Ignoring a freaking First Class century against a much better bowling attack? Come off it, already!!

you got your logic messed up here.

Oh yeah? Then it shouldn't be hard for you to come up with 8-10 examples of mediocre First Class players like Raina making it into the 48-50+ average range in test cricket? I'll wait.

[Chandan]

third string wi team and these guys are as raw as kohli.Infact Roach played in the same u 19 WC as kohli! i am asking you evidence against senior,strong bowlers who will examine his rookie game and expose him. I am discounting SL for the same reason. Vaas and murali have either faded or not playing. The pakistani team had senior bowllers ,one of whom took him out

There are a lot of reasons you don't score vs australia. one is you feel the pressure severely with tight bowling and tight fields.. your game has to be big enough to withstand the pressure. It was clear he could not pass the tough tests.atleast at this stage.

you got your logic messed up here. You have to remember all these top players were immature or not established at the time of their debuts. the big example is that of viv richards. didn't prevent him from beocming a champion. young players have been picked without any great FC pedigree and on talent alone. that's my point. FC records at this stage(immature) is not reliable and does not show an ability to play long knocks in tests. example.hayden scored in domestic cricket. kept failing in international cricket for 8 years. laxman .again a heavy domestic performer. on and off until 2001. gambhir. not until 2008. it goes on and on.

can you note that jaffer and yuvraj(who made paltry runs in aus) also made runs in that game? The practise games are about practise . there have been instances where ramesh powar thrashed mcgrath. won't happen in a full test. That game is no evdience of kohli's or rohit's ability to play long knocks at international level. hughes scored 2 hundreds vs SA. that did not mean he was mature. flintoff duly exposed him. its not going to happen realistically when you consider the track record of several international batsmen. lots of international batsmen have taken time to be proven test performers by playing long knocks consistently. and they struggle even more against top class attacks. for example dravid scored his first 100 vs australia after several thrashings.

So what do you think should be criteria for test selection? Groping in dark? Personal opinion? Personal like or dislike? I think you are real confused yourself.

[The Outsider]

That game is no evdience of kohli's or rohit's ability to play long knocks at international level.

This is getting tiring! It's not that Kohli is going to turn into a Dravid or Tendulkar overnight. It's common sense that all players take time to find their feet at the international level. I have no idea why you are harping on that theme. The topic under discussion is who is more deserving of a test cap - Raina or Kohli? Now, can you give me evidence that Raina is more deserving of a test cap than Kohli?

[youngindia]

I am wasting my time here if you are judging a batsman because he got out to Afridi' date=' but let me try once again .[/quote'] No.Pakistan has a strong bowling tradition. their bowling will always have some standard just as our batting does.

Kohli scored a century against Lee, Johnson, Clark, and Siddle in the longer format of the game for which his selection is being discussed.

I have given reasons already.

The practise games are about practise . there have been instances where ramesh powar thrashed mcgrath. won't happen in a full test. That game is no evdience of kohli's or rohit's ability to play long knocks at international level.

Let's say he did make a hundred in a proper test. again does not prove a thing. Look at the example of phil hughes. even 2 hundreds vs steyn and co didn't mean he was a mature player. I am discounting 2 test 100's of hughes.

patta Centurion track and choose to ignore his success against Murali and Mendis in Sri Lanka after our "senior" batsmen had been made to look like novices is also hilarious.

look, he was not exactly playing huge knocks there ok. he had one fifty.keep things in perspective. his achievemnts are much less compared to hughes. raina played a even more crucial role in that series :)

Oh yeah? Then it shouldn't be hard for you to come up with 8-10 examples of mediocre First Class players like Raina making it into the 48-50+ average range in test cricket?

again twisting the language.Mediocre FC average at a young age. i don't have to go further than viv richards and his late twenties average. for that matter shane warne in bowling.

[youngindia]

So what do you think should be criteria for test selection? Groping in dark? Personal opinion? Personal like or dislike? I think you are real confused yourself.

see this. THE SELECTORS have to keep a tab on the progress made by the players in their game, the issues to be worked upon and a action item for the future. there is no alternative to understanding the game.

[youngindia]

This is getting tiring! It's not that Kohli is going to turn into a Dravid or Tendulkar overnight. It's common sense that all players take time to find their feet at the international level. I have no idea why you are harping on that theme. The topic under discussion is who is more deserving of a test cap - Raina or Kohli?

You said that FC records and hundred in practice game show an ability to play long knocks and hence kohli is deserving for tests. i refuted the uninformed intrepretation that FC records and hundred in practice game show an ability to play long knocks at test level. Example after example historically prove it. I go for raina. because of his extra seasoning and years spent at international level. Kohli is too immature to start for me. even for raina, its not an ideal time to start.but for the current situation, its fine.

[Sachinism]

Showing promise coupled with talent and some good scores should be enough, you guys are really nit-picking, they way you guys are going about it, we will never have any replacement batsmen once our top guys leave

[The Outsider]

I go for raina. because of his extra seasoning and years spent at international level. Kohli is too immature to start for me. even for raina, its not an ideal time to start.but for the current situation, its fine.

It's a waste of time arguing with you because you pay little heed to First Class records against good bowling attacks and performance in the longer version for selection in test matches. Badrinath has had a lot of "seasoning" with oregano, salt, and pepper for years in domestic cricket so according to your logic he should be able to strike it huge at test level immediately, I guess? Jaffer also had a lot of "seasoning" - look what came of him. Heck, Yuvraj had close to a decade of "seasoning" with all the condiments available in the world and hasn't been able to hack it in tests yet. A strong First Class record is a must for success in tests. History is proof of it. There are a lot of other factors to consider as well, but selecting someone with 6 First Class centuries in 50+ matches, all against ordinary bowling is just not the way to select a test batsman.

[Chandan]

see this. THE SELECTORS have to keep a tab on the progress made by the players in their game, the issues to be worked upon and a action item for the future. there is no alternative to understanding the game.

Progress made in which game? FC scores do not mean anything according to you; performing in A matches doesn't mean anything; performance against international sides in a FC match do not mean anything. So progress made where and in which game? Gully cricket? You lay out the criteria for test selection of middle order batsmen and then evaluate Raina and Kohli according to that. Only then we can have a discussion. Otherwise all you are doing is groping in dark and leaving things to one person's personal opinion.

[teacup]

This discussion is moot. Badri, Kohli, Raina, Rohit, Pujara or whoever it is all have potential to come good in Tests. Right now though the biggest battle is between Yuvraj and Murali Vijay for the only real middle-order slot that is open. Vijay had a chance to make it his own in Nagpur but fell short of doing it. He has another chance in Kolkata in one of the most crucial Test Matches in Indian history the outcome of which will determine whether we finish the season as the No.1 Test team in the world for the first time or not. If he fails, he will give Yuvraj another lease of life as the selectors are less likely to replace Yuvraj with another batsman who does not convert good starts into big scores irrespective of how assured he looks when he bats.

[Chandan]

This discussion is moot. Badri' date= Kohli, Raina, Rohit, Pujara or whoever it is all have potential to come good in Tests. Right now though the biggest battle is between Yuvraj and Murali Vijay for the only real middle-order slot that is open. Vijay had a chance to make it his own in Nagpur but fell short of doing it. He has another chance in Kolkata in one of the most crucial Test Matches in Indian history the outcome of which will determine whether we finish the season as the No.1 Test team in the world for the first time or not. If he fails, he will give Yuvraj another lease of life as the selectors are less likely to replace Yuvraj with another batsman who does not convert good starts into big scores irrespective of how assured he looks when he bats.

I think this discussion is very much on. We can face a situation like we did in this series in future too; and time has come where selectors have to identify at least 4 middle order batsmen as future test bats and then groom them accordingly. Vijay is going to stay in the squad of XV because he can double up as a third openerer as well as a spare MO bat. But that is not enough and selectors should take this series as a warning for future. If they'll sit blind eyed, India will go back to 90s in cricket after these MO greats leave us.

[The Outsider]

Progress made in which game? FC scores do not mean anything according to you; performing in A matches doesn't mean anything; performance against international sides in a FC match do not mean anything. So progress made where and in which game? Gully cricket?

Seasonings :

[Mr. Wicket]

Porky with seasonings? :hmmm:

[teacup]

I think this discussion is very much on. We can face a situation like we did in this series in future too; and time has come where selectors have to identify at least 4 middle order batsmen as future test bats and then groom them accordingly. Vijay is going to stay in the squad of XV because he can double up as a third openerer as well as a spare MO bat. But that is not enough and selectors should take this series as a warning for future. If they'll sit blind eyed, India will go back to 90s in cricket after these MO greats leave us.

This series has only one more match left. Vijay and Badri are the only ones who will get a chance. Kohli or Raina are not going to get a look-in unless something drastic happens between now and the start of the second test match.

[Gunner_Mania]

This discussion is moot. Badri' date= Kohli, Raina, Rohit, Pujara or whoever it is all have potential to come good in Tests. Right now though the biggest battle is between Yuvraj and Murali Vijay for the only real middle-order slot that is open. Vijay had a chance to make it his own in Nagpur but fell short of doing it. He has another chance in Kolkata in one of the most crucial Test Matches in Indian history the outcome of which will determine whether we finish the season as the No.1 Test team in the world for the first time or not. If he fails, he will give Yuvraj another lease of life as the selectors are less likely to replace Yuvraj with another batsman who does not convert good starts into big scores irrespective of how assured he looks when he bats.

unless and untill the selectors of Indian cricket teams read and understand and give consideration to this discussion.:--D

[Chandan]

This series has only one more match left. Vijay and Badri are the only ones who will get a chance. Kohli or Raina are not going to get a look-in unless something drastic happens between now and the start of the second test match.

I'm not talking about this series or the Kolkata match for heavens sake! I'm talking about a situation which we would face very soon and a trailor of that in this series. If selectors won't work with a vision for the upcoming transition, Indian team will go back to what it was in early 90s. I hope this time I'm clear.