All time Indian Test Match XI

[Texan]

Here's mine - 1. V Sehwag 2. S Gavaskar 3. R Dravid 4. S Tendulkar 5. V Hazare 6. V Mankad 7. MS Dhoni (capt) 8. Kapil Dev 9. A Kumble 10. E Prasanna 11. M Nissar This would be my XI for a home test match where 3 spinners come into play. For an away match, replace Prasanna by Srinath. Post yours.

[Sooda]

:headshake: The same but Id replace Hazare with VVS Laxman, Nissar (??) with Srinath and Prasanna with Bedi or Chandra... probably Bedi.

[Sooda]

http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=193047 .. done once (at least) but cant get tired of these kinda threads Heres two 'equal' India teams to play each other Gavaskar © Gambhir Dravid Vishwanath Hazare Engineer Kapil Dev Harbhajan Zaheer Gupte Bedi Sehwag Merchant VVS Laxman Tendulkar Azharuddin MS Dhoni © Mankad Srinath Kumble Ghavri Chandrashekhar Team B is stronger...arguably on both bowling and batting fronts- if only marginally. Plus with Sunny, Dravid AND Hazare in the batting itll be a complete go slow for team A. B OTOH got Viru and packed with strokeplayers in the mid order. Still, should be one hell of a match :--D..

[The Outsider]

:headshake: The same but Id replace Hazare with VVS Laxman, Nissar (??) with Srinath and Prasanna with Bedi or Chandra... probably Bedi.

No point playing Bedi if you already have Mankad in the team - and Mankad is a must for any all time Indian XI.

[Sooda]

^True say Outy. Chandra would make two leggies in him and Kumble but both are different types of bowlers so it should probably be him then for his matchwinningness. I know Prasanna was meant to be a great bowler but his record certainly isnt as good as Bedi or Chandra. How does he compare to Bhajji even...?

[zen]

All time XI: Gavaskar Sehwag Dravid Tendulkar Hazare Mankad Kapil Dhoni Amar Singh Md Nissar One of the great spinners ^ an 11 for most types of surfaces 1. The openers selects themselves (Vijay Merchant is unlucky to miss out) 2. Hazare comes in for his overseas record. Amarnath would have been a good choice to considering how well he has done against the WI 3. Vinoo Mankad plays as an all-rounder and spin partner to 'one of the great spinners' 4. Kapil, Amar Singh and Md Nissar form the pace bowling trio. Amar Singh was also a bit of an all-rounder so that lends depth to the batting too. Md Nissar is considered by many as Ind's fastest bowler ever and amongst the fastest of his time. He was known to ball quicker than someone like Larwood, if I recall correctly. To bad Amar Singh and Nissar didn't get to play that many games 5. Dhoni vs Kirmani was a tough one but in the end went with Dhoni for his batting abilities and his keeping has improved a lot of late

[Sooda]

VVS Laxman over Hazare Id say. Fo Shizzle. Haz was great and would be in the squad of 16, but just misses out for me. Lax has achieved a little bit more over his time. And how you guys can leave out Srinath for two 1930s pacemen who played 15 tests between them Im not sure...

[The Outsider]

^True say Outy. Chandra would make two leggies in him and Kumble but both are different types of bowlers so it should probably be him then for his matchwinningness. I know Prasanna was meant to be a great bowler but his record certainly isnt as good as Bedi or Chandra. How does he compare to Bhajji even...?

I would still play Prasanna - he was a superb off spin bowler by all accounts. Ian Chappell said about him that it was like facing someone with a cricket ball on a yo-yo string, so exceptional was his control over flight and on countless occasions batsmen used to step out to him expecting to get to the pitch of the ball only for it to dip at the last moment. And from memory his record is still pretty good - he probably does not have a very high wickets per match ratio, but has an average of around 30. But so was Chandra, a superb exponent of his skill, though not known for his control, and capable of match turning skills in a jiffy. My idea of selecting all time XIs is about building a team where players can fit into versatile roles rather than just picking the best XI players. For example, I would always include Waugh in my all time world XI over batsmen like Richards and Lara, because of the proven tenacity he can provide to a line up from the number 5 spot, though in a head to head comparison I would rate both above Waugh. It's a fun academic exercise anyways, different people different strokes.

[zen]

And how you guys can leave out Srinath for two 1930s pacemen who played 15 tests between them Im not sure...

Because those guys were pretty good and amongst the best of their time. It's unfortunate that they didn't play more but in the games that they have played they have been very good. I would rate them as India best opening bowlers so it becomes more like Kapil vs Srinath, where Kapil wins Also a line up with Amar and Nissar opening the bowling with Kapil as first change, along with one of the great spinners looks better (on paper too) against an all-time batting line up of other teams!

[zen]

VVS Laxman over Hazare Id say. Fo Shizzle. Haz was great and would be in the squad of 16, but just misses out for me. Lax has achieved a little bit more over his time.

I would rate Hazare higher than Laxman. Laxman is definitely good but too me he is more in the league of Ganguly, Azhar, etc (and not in Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag's), guys you wouldn't normally have in an all time test 11. VVS has like 7000 runs in 110 tests, which is a little too many to get to 7000 for an all-time 11 batsman.

[teacup]

Gavaskar Sehwag Dravid Tendulkar - captain Azhar/Vishy Kapil Dev Kirmani Prasanna Kumble/Chandra/Bedi Srinath Zaheer

[Texan]

:headshake: The same but Id replace Hazare with VVS Laxman, Nissar (??) with Srinath and Prasanna with Bedi or Chandra... probably Bedi.

The reason I have kept Prasanna above Bedi or Chandra is because there is already a left-arm spinner (Mankad) and leg-spinner (Kumble). So, we need an offie and Prasanna I felt scored over Bhajji. It was a tough choice between Kumble and Chandra, but I eventually went with Kumble for the ginormous amount of wickets he's got over a long period of time.

[zen]

Btw, just posted this on other thread, but I thought I could post it here too as it's about all time Indian XI

http://www.cricketnetwork.co.uk/main/s119/st26334.php Which Indian fast bowler has the best strike rate in Test matches? Kapil Dev? Javagal Srinath? Zaheer Khan? The answer is Mohammad Nissar, with a strike rate of a wicket every 48 balls, compared to the 60-odd balls per wicket of the others. This strike rate places him in the company of some of the greatest pure strike bowlers in the history of the game: men such as Frank Tyson, Malcolm Marshall and Waqar Younis. In fact Mohammad Nissar and his partner Ladha Amar Singh formed one of the most formidable pair of fast bowlers in the world at the dawn of Indian Test cricket. It is one of the tragedies of Indian cricket that both were lost to the game rather early. Amar Singh died young, at the tender age of 29 from a bout of severe pneumonia, and Nissar too did not keep in the best of health and was not picked for any Tests after 1936. Upon Partition, Nissar moved to Lahore in Pakistan where he died prematurely, just barely past 50. Unfortunate circumstances thus prevented Nissar and Amar Singh from passing on their legacy to Indian cricket, much to its detriment. If the pace bowling standards they achieved had been maintained, India never would have suffered the fast-bowling drought it did from the late 1930s to the late 1970s. This forty year dry spell had the nation thirsting for a genuine fast bowler, until Kapil Dev finally slaked that thirst when he arrived on the scene with the sound and fury of the first thunderstorm of a new monsoon, while tiny Ramakant Desai provided some brief showers of relief, albeit insufficient to quench the thirst, in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Mohammad Nissar, from Hoshiarpur in the Punjab, was a large man, around six feet tall, and powerfully built, who could be devastatingly quick. In fact, according to C.K. Nayudu who played against them both, Nissar was, early in his spells, faster than Englishman Harold Larwood. Off a runup of about twenty-two yards, the length of a cricket pitch, he gathered himself for the final uncoiling of his massive frame in what was one of the great sights in cricket according to contemporary Rusi Modi. Besides the basic requisites of speed, line, length and swerve, Nissar possessed a deadly yorker. This fact is underlined when one realizes that more than half of his 25 victims in a mere six Test matches were either bowled or leg before wicket. In India's first-ever Test, played at Lords against England in 1932, Nissar dismissed within the first few overs both Herbert Sutcliffe and Percy Holmes, who just ten days earlier had put together a world record partnership of 555 runs for the first wicket for Yorkshire. When Frank Woolley was then run out the English score read a shocking 19 for 3 and Lords was abuzz. Soon, Amar Singh got into the act and bowled Wally Hammond for 35. England were now well and truly reeling, and were eventually bowled out for 259 with Nissar bagging 5 for 93. That England managed to win the match was a result of the dogged batting of their captain, the ruthless Douglas Jardine, who scored 79 and 85 not out, and the frailty of the Indian batting line up which except for C.K. Nayudu, and Amar Singh in the first innings, looked all at sea against professional seam bowling in helpful conditions. If India had been able to use the services of Duleepsinghji, who was soon to be picked by England to represent them against Australia, or Iftikar Ali Pataudi, who also was to soon represent England against Australia, the story could have been different and India would probably not have to wait for another 40 years to record its first Test win in England. At the end of the match Jardine wistfully remarked that he would love to have a bowler like Amar Singh to take with him to Australia to battle Bradman, but did not mention Nissar. Maybe Jardine, who was India-born and had played some cricket in India, knew that unlike Larwood, Nissar was not a man who could be coerced into bowling an intimidatory line. Nissar's captain in the Presidency matches Wazir Ali, leading The Muslims, found this out to his chagrin when in the 1939 Pentangular match against The Hindus, he instructed Nissar to intimidate Vinoo Mankad, who had an injured thigh, with bouncers. But the gallant Nissar refused to do so. An occasional bouncer is every fast bowler's birth right, but to persistently bowl bouncer after bouncer simply to intimidate the batsmen is not within the spirit of the game. And Nissar played the game in its best traditions and spirit. Besides, Nissar had no need to resort to intimidatory tactics as he was talented enough to dismiss top class batsmen without such means. Nissar took five wickets in an innings three times in the six Tests he played. He also gave a devastating demonstration of his prowess when an Australian team under Jack Ryder visited India in 1935-36 for a series of "unofficial" Test matches. In just four "Test"matches against the Australians he scalped 35 wickets at the measly average of 13 runs each. Bradman in his foreword to Rusi Modi's book on Indian cricketers writes: "Two other great Indians never to visit Australia were Nissar and Amar Singh, but my Test Selector colleague and Test Captain Jack Ryder played against them in India. Many nights I sat with him into the small hours being enthralled listening to his stories of their skill." The other member of the great duo, Amar Singh, was from Rajkot in Gujarat. He too was tall, over six feet two inches and broad shouldered, though wiry. He was not really fast, but rather fast-medium, and used his height to great advantage to extract bounce and movement. Off a run up of little more than a dozen yards, Amar Singh generated so much energy from a clean and efficient action that Wally Hammond, one of England's greatest batsmen, said of him: "He came off the pitch like the crack of doom." And indeed, English conditions were ideally suited to Amar Singh. In 1932 on India's first official tour to England, he took 111 first class wickets at 20 runs each to Nissar's 71 at 18 runs each. Hammond was so impressed by Amar Singh's guile, he stated unequivocally in 1932 that Amar Singh was the best user of the new ball in the game. This was just before the Bodyline series, and England had bowlers such as Harold Larwood, Bill Voce, Bill Bowes, and Gubby Allen available to operate with the new ball. With the new ball Amar Singh could make it swing both ways, and when the shine was off, his devastating breakback often penetrated the defense of well set batsmen, castling them comprehensively. One of the keys to Amar Singh's bowling was that he always attacked the stumps, unlike some modern bowlers of similar pace who are content to bowl a metronomic line wide outside the off stump, waiting for the batsman to make mistakes or lose patience. Indeed it was very rare to see him vary his attacking field much, which generally consisted of two or three slips, a gully, a cover point, and third man on the off side. On the leg side he usually had a short fine leg, a forward short leg, a silly mid-on and a long leg. He maintained this field against all batsmen, from the C.K. Nayudus to rank tailenders. In seven Test matches Amar Singh took 28 wickets at 30 runs each, and his best figures were 7 for 86 from 44.4 marathon overs bowled in the absence of Nissar in Madras in 1933-34, against an England team led by Jardine, fresh from its triumph over Australia in the Bodyline series. Amar Singh also captured 10 wickets at 19 runs each against Jack Ryder's Australians in two unofficial "Tests" in 1935-36, while missing the other two due to illness. In 1937-38 he bagged 36 wickets at 16 runs each in 5 unofficial "Tests" against Lord Tennyson's visiting M.C.C. side. In 1938, while playing for a Lancashire league side, Amar Singh was picked to represent an England XI against the visiting Australians at Blackpool. He captured six Australian wickets including Stanley McCabe (the hero of the Bodyline series), Lindsey Hassett (one of Bradman's invincibles and a future Australian captain) as well as Bill Brown, another future Australian captain. It was a pity that Bradman sat this match out, though odds are that he too would have fallen to Amar Singh's guile and accuracy. Amar Singh's batting however had very little guile. He was a devastating low order hitter who often contributed to the team with his bat. He scored the first Test half century for India when he smashed the English attack for 51 in India's first Test at Lords. He flayed an unbeaten 131 against Lancashire coming in at number 10 that same summer. He was also the first player in the history of the Ranji Trophy to score 1000 runs and take 100 wickets. An area where Amar Singh's contributions to his team is often overlooked was his superb slip fielding. According to Rusi Modi, he was easily in the Simpson or Hammond class in this specialist position and helped his bowling partner, Nissar, on several occasions by taking catches of the highest caliber in the slip cordon. Unfortunately for India he was the exception, and Nissar and Amar Singh both suffered umpteen spilled catches in the slips, which if held would have added much gloss to their already impressive records. Yet neither Nissar nor Amar Singh indulged in the kind of gestures and facial expressions of disgust common today. Instead they simply got on with the job, and kept relentlessly pursuing batsmen, hunting together as one of the most devastating pairs of fast bowlers to ever play the game, who because of the lack of opportunity in terms of number of Tests played and unfortunate health problems, never had the chance to make a mark in the record books worthy of their rich talents. However all those who played with and against them, and all those who watched them in action, have no doubt about their place in cricket's history.

[Texan]

Because those guys were pretty good and amongst the best of their time. It's unfortunate that they didn't play more but in the games that they have played they have been very good. I would rate them as India best opening bowlers so it becomes more like Kapil vs Srinath, where Kapil wins Also a line up with Amar and Nissar opening the bowling with Kapil as first change, along with one of the great spinners looks better (on paper too) against an all-time batting line up of other teams!

True. From whatever I've read about them and quotes attributed to the two from some of the greatest cricketers at that time, it seems like they were possibly India's greatest opening pair (bowlers) to date.

[Sooda]

Because those guys were pretty good and amongst the best of their time. It's unfortunate that they didn't play more but in the games that they have played they have been very good. I would rate them as India best opening bowlers so it becomes more like Kapil vs Srinath, where Kapil wins Also a line up with Amar and Nissar opening the bowling with Kapil as first change, along with one of the great spinners looks better (on paper too) against an all-time batting line up of other teams!

They were good in the ones they played- but surely far too small a sample to go by. Not to mention all versus the same team (I think im right in saying)

[The Outsider]

They were good in the ones they played- but surely far too small a sample to go by. Not to mention all versus the same team (I think im right in saying)

I am not saying Nissar and Amar Singh are sure shot selections for an Indian all time XI, but Sooda you've got to realize and take into account the dynamics of cricket in those days before writing them off. First class cricket, specially county cricket, was a lot more competitive than today. There were instances of players missing out on international assignments to feature for their clubs and counties. Moreover, India did not get a lot of official touring MCC XIs (which became England retrospectively), but a lot of other high quality players and clubs toured India and played against guys from the era. A tour to England had a lot more than just tests matches - a touring team ended up playing almost all counties and some of the matches were regular and anticipated annual fixtures. Amar Singh died pretty young and did not really get a chance to showcase all his potential, but Nissar had a lot of highs in his career like his phenomenal performance on his tour to England where he returned with an average of under 20 and playing for Vijaynagar he was instrumental in the first MCC defeat on Indian soil with a ten wicket haul.

[zen]

When you talk about cricketers that played like 70-80 years ago and that too before Ind's independence, the number of tests played is not the sole criteria but other factors like reputation, opinions, etc are weighted too. The performance in the small amount of tests that they played only vindicates what was believed about them was accurate enough. In fact, it is even said that if Ind fielding had been better then their numbers would have been even more exceptional! It's shouldn't be hard for us to accept that they were amongst India's (Pak included as it was part of Ind) best opening bowlers!

[Sooda]

I am not saying Nissar and Amar Singh are sure shot selections for an Indian all time XI, but Sooda you've got to realize and take into account the dynamics of cricket in those days before writing them off. First class cricket, specially county cricket, was a lot more competitive than today. There were instances of players missing out on international assignments to feature for their clubs and counties. Moreover, India did not get a lot of official touring MCC XIs (which became England retrospectively), but a lot of other high quality players and clubs toured India and played against guys from the era. A tour to England had a lot more than just tests matches - a touring team ended up playing almost all counties and some of the matches were regular and anticipated annual fixtures. Amar Singh died pretty young and did not really get a chance to showcase all his potential, but Nissar had a lot of highs in his career like his phenomenal performance on his tour to England where he returned with an average of under 20 and playing for Vijaynagar he was instrumental in the first MCC defeat on Indian soil with a ten wicket haul.

No not really writing them off...Im sure youre right about the value of county cricket back then and I know they were pretty good bowlers. Ive read a bit about them in Mihir Boses History of Indian Cricket and that article rett posted was very good (written by Gaurang no less :) ) ...sheds light on how handy they were But still...over Srinath...

[zen]

No not really writing them off...Im sure youre right about the value of county cricket back then and I know they were pretty good bowlers. Ive read a bit about them in Mihir Boses History of Indian Cricket and that article rett posted was very good (written by Gaurang no less :) ) ...sheds light on how handy they were But still...over Srinath...

With Amar and Nissar in the playing 11, they would in fact be the opening bowlers with Kapil as the 3rd seamer! Kapil at his best probably competes with them Amar and Nissar were rated as amongst the best (if not the best) by many of that era in which the likes of Hammond and Bradman played. So it's more like they are assumed to be an opening pair similar to Lillee and McGrath, Marshall and Ambrose, etc. And not like Agarkar and Prasad bowling so Kapil and Srinath become the default choices Syd Barnes played from 1901 to 1914. In 27 tests, he picked up 189 wkts @16.43. Despite playing only 27 tests, he is rated amongst the best fast bowlers ever. As I said when talking abt cricketers from past era, number of games isn't an issue

[Texan]

With Amar and Nissar in the playing 11, they would in fact be the opening bowlers with Kapil as the 3rd seamer! Kapil at his best probably competes with them Amar and Nissar were rated as amongst the best (if not the best) by many of that era in which the likes of Hammond and Bradman played. So it's more like they are assumed to be an opening pair similar to Lillee and McGrath, Marshall and Ambrose, etc. And not like Agarkar and Prasad bowling so Kapil and Srinath become the default choices Syd Barnes played from 1901 to 1914. In 27 tests, he picked up 189 wkts @16.43. Despite playing only 27 tests, he is rated amongst the best fast bowlers ever. As I said when talking abt cricketers from past era, number of games isn't an issue

Amar and Nissar def were one of the best opening bowlers India had, though I would still prefer Srinath over Amar Singh. Amar Singh was a seamer and a little slower than Nissar. Srinath could seam and swing the bowl at good pace and on his day was unplayable. Besides, he got 200+ wickets with little support at the other end. Nissar would def be in my line-up though.