M.F. Hussain accepts Qatar citizenship

[triam]

Why do you compare urself with the lowest common denominator? which in this case is the Islamic fundamentals? Most of you consider the Islamic fundamentals the lowest of mankind, so why compare yourself with them, saying atleast we dont do that? Going down that line(hypothetically) tomorrow, the hindu fundamentals kill two people for this issue, will some (note the some iam not saying all) of you still claim, yeah it is wrong they killed 2 people but we havent killed thousands like those islamists? I mean, where will it stop? And do you care about your religion so much that you are willing to sacrifice humanity to protect your religion?

[yoda]

He is not saying we want to stoop to their level. But it doesn't mean we (hindus) have to just keep our mouth shut and give up all right to even respond. While it may be nothing to some of you it does offend quite a few people and I bet it will totally offend most people from earlier generations.

Why do you compare urself with the lowest common denominator? which in this case is the Islamic fundamentals? Most of you consider the Islamic fundamentals the lowest of mankind, so why compare yourself with them, saying atleast we dont do that? Going down that line(hypothetically) tomorrow, the hindu fundamentals kill two people for this issue, will some (note the some iam not saying all) of you still claim, yeah it is wrong they killed 2 people but we havent killed thousands like those islamists? I mean, where will it stop? And do you care about your religion so much that you are willing to sacrifice humanity to protect your religion?

My response to a similar post above. Talk about OTT. Who is talking about sacrificing humanity or advocating any kind of violence? People are just saying is what the guy did is plain wrong. The Islamic comparison was brought up to show how other religions are and how we are NOT the same. Now the real question here is do people have the right to protest and express their disapproval at all about this or are they just supposed to STFU?

[The Outsider]

I understand that some of the protests by Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal happened only after his work was published in 1996 in some magazine, but I have heard of his controversial nude work even before that. I don't think any sane minded Hindu who worships these deities would be ok to have them painted in the nude no matter when they were painted or when they were published in a mag or when some of these orgs (some of whom are ofc politically motivated) started their protests. The point here is not the motive of protesters, rather the abuse of a religion and it's deities by someone in the name of art.

So' date=' in your mind, Tibetans have no right to protest Chinese occupation now because it doesn't satisfy the statute of limitations. A wrong which is exposed (for whatever means) is wrong when religious sensibilities are concerned. It was not centuries later (as perceived in cases of Ayodhya and Buddha stautes in Afghanistan). Budda abhi bhi saans to le raha hai! More over, the protests were after it was published to a wider audience, earlier it was only in private elite circles.[/quote'] Firstly, Hussain's paintings were on display on numerous galleries and exhibitions for years on end. Now Hussain paints and exhibits his first painting on this line, no one cares. He makes another one, no one protests. What's the implicit message? That it's fine to do so, right? So, he made an entire series of such paintings with no protests or court cases which were sold and displayed in public and presumably moved on to another genre. 25 years later, people say, hey that's offensive! If they had protested and registered court cases after his first painting he would have stopped or would have been made to stop by the courts. It's absolute garbage to register 1200+ court cases against 25 year old paintings in retrospect against a 80 year old man, knowing full well what mess the Indian judicial system is - I am not even talking about the violent actions because we are in agreement that they are wrong. Would it make it right to file cases against nude paintings in Indian temples today for centuries old paintings? They were fine at that time and should we dismantle those temples because they don't fit in the supposed modern morals? Should we ban publication of Kamasutra?

[seedhi]

It is strange how Hindu conservative keep raking that argument without even understanding the difference. Sita and Radha are godesses(sp?) in Hindu mythology. Fatima and Ayesha are mere mortals who at best can be considered companion of Mohammed, who is again considered mortal. There is no message in this post of mine but I did want to highlight the difference. Essentially by equating Radha and Ayesha you are only degrading the former. xxx

I am not talking about the historical aspect of Ayesha, Fatima vs that of Radha and Sita. The fact is that Radha and Sita are venerated by Hindus and Ayesha and Fatima are held in respect by the Muslims. The makers of the film Fire surely knew all of this and yet went ahead and named two lesbians Radha and Sita. Obviously it was done to provoke a response. There can hardly be any doubt about this.

[seedhi]

Firstly, Hussain's paintings were on display on numerous galleries and exhibitions for years on end. Now Hussain paints and exhibits his first painting on this line, no one cares. He makes another one, no one protests. What's the implicit message? That it's fine to do so, right? So, he made an entire series of such paintings with no protests or court cases which were sold and displayed in public and presumably moved on to another genre. 25 years later, people say, hey that's offensive! If they had protested and registered court cases after his first painting he would have stopped or would have been made to stop by the courts. It's absolute garbage to register 1200+ court cases against 25 year old paintings in retrospect against a 80 year old man, knowing full well what mess the Indian judicial system is - I am not even talking about the violent actions because we are in agreement that they are wrong. Would it make it right to file cases against nude paintings in Indian temples today for centuries old paintings? They were fine at that time and should we dismantle those temples because they don't fit in the supposed modern morals? Should we ban publication of Kamasutra?

It is not too difficult to see why cases were filed in 1996 and not in 1970s. Because of the huge changes that took place in the 1980s and 1990s. I am sure people saw how Salman Rushdie's book was banned in India for hurting Muslim sentiments and the huge protests and book burnings that accompanied his publication of Satanic Verses. Or how the Constitution of India was changed to accomodate Muslim sentiments after the Shah Bano judgment. Or how Taslima Nasreen was hounded out of her country. Also conspicuous was the complete silence on the part of the so called custodians of secularism on these matters, and also on the sufferings of Hindus in Kashmir. Naturally, some Hindus thought that if Muslims are allowed to be intolerant and violent then why the heck should Hinduism be unique in suffering abuse silently. Thus you had the protests and the cases against Hussain filed in 1996, and the protests against Fire. Therefore, these incidents have not taken place in a vacuum. Another contributing factor was the growth of the media which allowed news and images to be broadcast everywhere. I think that had more people been aware of the Hussain paintings in 1970 it would have led to protests then as well.

[The Outsider]

^ Yeah, and I had said somewhere earlier in the thread how in the last 30 years or so the tolerance level has been on the decline and religious extremism has been on the rise. Protests against Rushdie, Fire, and Taslima Nasreen all happened in real time. Even though I support freedom of expression in all those cases, I can also understand people's right to protest non violently to things they find offensive. What makes Hussain's case so obviously different is that these protests happened decades later. It's pretty simple : 1. If it was offensive in the 70s when his first few paintings came out, people should have protested and filed court cases. In all likelihood, it would have stopped. 2. If it was not offensive in the 70s and was not protested against, it makes zero sense to hound him decades later for work which was considered fine then and offensive now. Was he somehow to gauge that 30 years later people are going to find my art offensive when they have no problem with it now? Retrospective judgment is rubbish!

[Lurker]

It is not too difficult to see why cases were filed in 1996 and not in 1970s. Because of the huge changes that took place in the 1980s and 1990s. I am sure people saw how Salman Rushdie's book was banned in India for hurting Muslim sentiments and the huge protests and book burnings that accompanied his publication of Satanic Verses. Or how the Constitution of India was changed to accomodate Muslim sentiments after the Shah Bano judgment. Or how Taslima Nasreen was hounded out of her country. Also conspicuous was the complete silence on the part of the so called custodians of secularism on these matters' date=' and also on the sufferings of Hindus in Kashmir. Naturally, some Hindus thought that if Muslims are allowed to be intolerant and violent then why the heck should Hinduism be unique in suffering abuse silently. Thus you had the protests and the cases against Hussain filed in 1996, and the protests against Fire. Therefore, these incidents have not taken place in a vacuum. Another contributing factor was the growth of the media which allowed news and images to be broadcast everywhere. I think that had more people been aware of the Hussain paintings in 1970 it would have led to protests then as well.[/quote'] Alternatively this can also be answered by the fact that India stopped producing political leadership of top drawer, the kind Nehru, Shastri and Indira reprsented AND started producing gutter politicians like Advani, Thackeray and Modi who all utilized religion for their political mileage. Such politicians did not have a leg to stand on when Hussein made his first painting, this days they are running sprints thanks to "enlightened" Hindus. xxx

[seedhi]

^ Yeah, and I had said somewhere earlier in the thread how in the last 30 years or so the tolerance level has been on the decline and religious extremism has been on the rise. Protests against Rushdie, Fire, and Taslima Nasreen all happened in real time. Even though I support freedom of expression in all those cases, I can also understand people's right to protest non violently to things they find offensive. What makes Hussain's case so obviously different is that these protests happened decades later. It's pretty simple : 1. If it was offensive in the 70s when his first few paintings came out, people should have protested and filed court cases. In all likelihood, it would have stopped. 2. If it was not offensive in the 70s and was not protested against, it makes zero sense to hound him decades later for work which was considered fine then and offensive now. Was he somehow to gauge that 30 years later people are going to find my art offensive when they have no problem with it now? Retrospective judgment is rubbish!

We cannot overlook the fact that Hussain's paintings probably always had a niche audience. The cases werent filed until the paintings were published in a monthly magazine in 1996. Given what had happened in the 1980s and 90s, I think it was inevitable that court cases would be filed against Hussain, when the paintings became "public". I am 100% sure that had the paintings been published in national daily in 1970, even then there would have been some reaction - maybe not to the extent of what happened in 1996. Now whether the retrospective cases are legally tenable and justifiable is something that the courts had to decide. Unfortunately Hussain refused to face the court cases and fled the country.

[Lurker]

We cannot overlook the fact that Hussain's paintings probably always had a niche audience. The cases werent filed until the paintings were published in a monthly magazine in 1996. Given what had happened in the 1980s and 90s' date= I think it was inevitable that court cases would be filed against Hussain, when the paintings became "public". I am 100% sure that had the paintings been published in national daily in 1970, even then there would have been some reaction - maybe not to the extent of what happened in 1996.

Another reason why Taliban politicspeak is best reflected by RSS followers. Both of these forces keep on yapping about "elites" in their society who are "moving" away from true tenets of Islam/Hinduism. Hussein is a 90 year old man, even in 1970s he would be in his 60s, and hence had obviously been around a while. To suggest his work was appreciated by "elites" and was not "public" is pure hallucination.

Now whether the retrospective cases are legally tenable and justifiable is something that the courts had to decide. Unfortunately Hussain refused to face the court cases and fled the country.

Why did Shiv Sena and their loonies not knock on Court doors? Yeh ajeeb tamasha hai ke they will send people to ransack the place and then claim the man should come back to fight legal hassles in Court?? Even SS's staunchest supporters know very well their strength is in the goondaism and not understanding of Indian Constitution, so really not sure what are you on about here? xxx

[seedhi]

Alternatively this can also be answered by the fact that India stopped producing political leadership of top drawer, the kind Nehru, Shastri and Indira reprsented AND started producing gutter politicians like Advani, Thackeray and Modi who all utilized religion for their political mileage. Such politicians did not have a leg to stand on when Hussein made his first painting, this days they are running sprints thanks to "enlightened" Hindus. xxx

Those politicians were also a product of the times, they did not drop from the heavens. Even so, I think you are being too generous to Indira Gandhi who also belonged to the same gutter, among other things, for fanning Sikh extremism, Tamil extremism, and messing up the North east. You can also add Rajiv Gandhi to the list of gutter politicians for overturning the Shah Bano case, then pandering to Hindus by opening the locks to the Babri structure, and turning a blind eye to the massacre of Sikhs. VP Singh and Nehru belong to that list as well for other reasons.

[Clarke]

Retrospective judgment is rubbish!

Why is that so ? We're talking of religion and sentiments, not some laws of physics that stay the same for centuries. It will always be distorted whether a certain painting is offensive or not for a certain set of people. I reckon the most important point here that reflects the state of our country is the Law & Order situation. Surely a large number of our problems boil down to the implementation of the laws in the constitution. The govt does not have the balls to crack down on the hooligans who started this mayhem, nor does the police have the powers or the will to implement their basic duties. The courts meanwhile drag cases for more than a decade in general .. thats simply the worst thing if u ask me, not the intolerance, not the violence, not the religious lunatics but law and order. The root cause of MFH leaving India is the threat from the right wingers in a supposedly Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic. The comparisons between taliban destroying the Buddha statues are just not valid; what we need to compare with are the protests against the Prophet Muhammad's cartoons. Did we see anyone destroying the Danish embassy in west Europe/USA ? Not exactly, because the loonies know they'll have a hard time doing so and an even tougher time after attempting that. Cant we have such an environment where we leave it to the courts whether MFH committed a crime and there is no nonsense on the streets ? Is that too much to ask ? It is just silly to point fingers to certain lunatics hoping they were having a certain mindset .. what needs to change is pretty obvious.

[Lurker]

Those politicians were also a product of the times' date= they did not drop from the heavens.

They surely must have fallen from heavens, else RSS (and its supporting posse) would surely have produced a single leader of stature similar to these. The right wing failed to produce a leader of stature then and it has consistently failed to produce ever since.

I think you are being too generous to Indira Gandhi who also belonged to the same gutter, among other things, for fanning Sikh extremism, Tamil extremism, and messing up the North east.

You forgot to mention Emergency there. Emergency and Sikh extremism are two areas where I am extremely critical of Miss Gandhi. The other issues you raised are hogwash. Tamil extremism? What are you on about? Sri Lankan Tamil by any chance? Messing up North East? Again what are you on about? Indira passed away 25 years ago what has BJP done till date in NE?? How many seats has it won and what kind of support has it managed to create in NE after 60 odd years of Indian Independence? xxx

[seedhi]

Another reason why Taliban politicspeak is best reflected by RSS followers. Both of these forces keep on yapping about "elites" in their society who are "moving" away from true tenets of Islam/Hinduism. Hussein is a 90 year old man' date=' even in 1970s he would be in his 60s, and hence had obviously been around a while. To suggest his work was appreciated by "elites" and was not "public" is pure hallucination.[/quote']Hussains paintings, as do paintings of most other artists in the country have always had a niche audience. I am sure most people who saw his paintings in 1996 through their publication in a Hindi monthly saw them for the first time.

Why did Shiv Sena and their loonies not knock on Court doors?

You can ask the Shiv Sena for an answer.

Yeh ajeeb tamasha hai ke they will send people to ransack the place and then claim the man should come back to fight legal hassles in Court?? Even SS's staunchest supporters know very well their strength is in the goondaism and not understanding of Indian Constitution, so really not sure what are you on about here? xxx

Indian govt has assured him of security several times. It was his decision to flee India and not return back. If he cannot even trust the word of the Indian govt then what else can be done?

[coffee_rules]

While some of us are debating whether he should be held responsible by law, some go to the extent of: (as quoted in Wiki):

n response to the controversy, Husain's admirers have petitioned the government to grant Husain the Bharat Ratna, India's highest award. According to Shashi Tharoor, who supports the petition, it praises Husain because his "life and work are beginning to serve as an allegory for the changing modalities of the secular in modern India — and the challenges that the narrative of the nation holds for many of us. This is the opportune and crucial time to honour him for his dedication and courage to the cultural renaissance of his beloved country."[37]

I didn't know painting gods having sex with animals is considered cultural renaissance! I want to know if his apologists think the same. If so, there is no need for any more discussion on this subject. We can stop the arguments here.

[Lurker]

Hussains paintings, as do paintings of most other artists in the country have always had a niche audience. I am sure most people who saw his paintings in 1996 through their publication in a Hindi monthly saw them for the first time.

Really what kind of a weird argument is that? You are suggesting here that India's most popular and celebrated painter's art work was not seen by Indians for over 25-30 years? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

You can ask the Shiv Sena for an answer.

Wah! When SS attacks I should go ask Shiv Sena? Bandhu then why dont you raise the questions you have raised to MFH??? Yeh thread ki jaroorat hi nahin.

Indian govt has assured him of security several times. It was his decision to flee India and not return back. If he cannot even trust the word of the Indian govt then what else can be done?

:haha::haha::haha: You sure as not as naieve, or are you? What was that whole Indian Govt's "assurance" that Babri Masjid would be intact? While we are on Babri Masjid, do I need to remind you that Supreme Court had explicitly stated that the mosque be left alone? Care to remind us all which loony brigade then spit on Indian Govt's assurances as also Supreme Court??? Hilarious how the wheel comes full circle and the supporters are invoking Indian Govt and Supreme Court! If it was no tragic it would actually be funny Seedhi saab. xxx

[seedhi]

They surely must have fallen from heavens' date=' else RSS (and its supporting posse) would surely have produced a single leader of stature similar to these. The right wing failed to produce a leader of stature then and it has consistently failed to produce ever since.[/quote']IMHO AB Vajpayee = Nehru < LB Shastri.

You forgot to mention Emergency there. Emergency and Sikh extremism are two areas where I am extremely critical of Miss Gandhi. The other issues you raised are hogwash. Tamil extremism? What are you on about? Sri Lankan Tamil by any chance? Messing up North East? Again what are you on about? Indira passed away 25 years ago what has BJP done till date in NE?? How many seats has it won and what kind of support has it managed to create in NE after 60 odd years of Indian Independence? xxx

Did we not suffer the blowback of the mess created by Indira Gandhi in Sri Lanka. The IPKF? Bomb blast which killed Rajiv Gandhi and dozens of others. And the problems in the north east also multiplied during her rule. Nellie massacre comes to mind.

[Lurker]

IMHO AB Vajpayee = Nehru And in my humble opinion Nehru >> Shastri >> Indira >> Vajpayee.

Did we not suffer the blowback of the mess created by Indira Gandhi in Sri Lanka. The IPKF? Bomb blast which killed Rajiv Gandhi and dozens of others. And the problems in the north east also multiplied during her rule. Nellie massacre comes to mind.

Okay so my guess about Tamil extremism in SL was right on. Help me understand this now. Why is India's meddling in Baluchistan a "strategic depth" policy while India's support to Tamil cause a "blowback"? Surely you know geo-polity enough to realize SL was being wooed actively by Pakistan and China, or dont you? xxx

[seedhi]

Really what kind of a weird argument is that? You are suggesting here that India's most popular and celebrated painter's art work was not seen by Indians for over 25-30 years? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

Ok you tell me, how would people actually see Hussain's paintings? How many people went to art exhibitions and how many were held anyway? I actually find it amusing that the supporters of Hussain usually give the opposite argument that most Hindus havent even seen Hussain's paintings and are offended only by something they learnt via a pamphlet. The truth is somewhere in between. It is a fact that the paintings that were published in 1996 were popped essentially out of nowhere. But once the situation got inflamed the reaction was inevitable.

Wah! When SS attacks I should go ask Shiv Sena? Bandhu then why dont you raise the questions you have raised to MFH??? Yeh thread ki jaroorat hi nahin.

Thread was started by people to express their feelings on Hussain exiting our country for good. I did that in my first post. Frankly, I do not expect you to answer for Hussain and why he painted the paintings, only on your own opinions about the issue.

You sure as not as naieve, or are you? What was that whole Indian Govt's "assurance" that Babri Masjid would be intact? While we are on Babri Masjid, do I need to remind you that Supreme Court had explicitly stated that the mosque be left alone? Care to remind us all which loony brigade then spit on Indian Govt's assurances as also Supreme Court??? Hilarious how the wheel comes full circle and the supporters are invoking Indian Govt and Supreme Court! If it was no tragic it would actually be funny Seedhi saab. xxx

Today Indian govt is assuring hundreds of athletes and cricketers to visit India inspite of the explicit threat against them by Illyas Kashmiri. The Pune bomb blast perpetrators remain free. The jehadi machine in pakistan is intact. So are the sportspersons fools to come to India and play? Secondly you and I very well know that if the Indian govt wants the Shiv Sena can be leashed - this just happened when MNIK was shown without much violence in Mumbai and hundreds of Shiv Sainiks were arrested.

[coffee_rules]

^I concur. I would go and claim that SS made MoFoH a household name. In the 70s and 80s he was known only to the elite who frequent art museums and the page 3 kind who could afford to buy these paintings for exorbitant prices.

[Lurker]

Ok you tell me, how would people actually see Hussain's paintings? How many people went to art exhibitions and how many were held anyway?

You do realize ours is a country of 1 billion population. Even in 70s it would be 40-50 crores. If even 1% of that population sees the painting that number would be much bigger than population of many countries. What you also do not seem to realize is that while an average Indian can be given a pass for not knowing about Hussein's painting what do you have to say about the Jansanghis?? The Vajpayees, the Advanis etc? By all accounts these two gents were very well received in social circles, and Vajpayee being an artist would know about MFH. What about Thackeray?? Was he not making cartoons back then? Were these gents, the now custodian of Hindu sanskriti, sleeping for 30 odd years or so?

Secondly you and I very well know that if the Indian govt wants the Shiv Sena can be leashed - this just happened when MNIK was shown without much violence in Mumbai and hundreds of Shiv Sainiks were arrested.

No I dont buy that at all. There is a distinct lack of politicial will in India and without it these are empty words. Remember that the party in power, at the Center, when Fire movie controversy happened was BJP. If Mr. Advani(who was the HM) could not reign a bellicose Thackeray why should I expect that from a Congress HM? Well I take that back, I would expect it from the HM(regardless of political leanings) but it just wont happen. xxx