A very simple math question ...

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^ That article didn't teach me anything new. Hospital bills are humongous

Have you thought of why hospital bills are "humongous"? Try this: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html

The Varieties of Excessive Costs The excessive costs of our current medical system can be classified into three major categories: • The first, and by far the largest excess cost, is due to the current overuse of medical resources by patients. Overuse is the rational response of consumers who do not have to pay the entire cost of the medical services they use. The causes of those excess costs are Medicaid, Medicare, and tax laws that provide incentives for individuals to have their employers purchase their medical care in the form of private health insurance. • The second category of excess cost consists of administrative and paperwork costs that are unnecessary for the provision of health care, but that have come into existence because of the current patchwork of third-party payers and their attempts to control their increasing costs by closely monitoring the behavior of doctors and patients. Even worse is the fact that those cost-containment activities do not seem to have contained costs very well. • The third excess cost is associated with the fear of malpractice suits. Administering medically unnecessary tests and procedures helps to insulate doctors and hospitals from the potential wrath of patients or their families when inevitable accidents occur in medical treatment or when treatments just do not work.

Republicans spent billions of tax dollars for wars and here we have a better use of the tax money.

I agree; I vehemently opposed the wars, too. But, two wrongs don't make a right.

I hope the bill passes.

Oh, it will. And the country will crumble under its weight. As for your other comment about "rich can help out the poor" - sure, they can (and many do via charitable contributions). But charity under government duress? I am all for health care cost reform. This country badly needs it. The insurance companies are out of control. Costs are spiraling out of control. Patients and doctors have no power. But, all of these issues can be handled with simple changes - (make health insurance portable, make it available across state lines, decrease the exclusion periods for pre-existing conditions, institute "guarantee-access" plans in all states, and enforce current laws to rein in insurance companies) rather than an expensive bill which pulls huge amounts from Medicare, SS, and tax revenues. I am just as terrified of a slow, but inexorable movement towards giving complete control that one big insurance company - Government!! PS: Do you have an opinion on what I posted about the possibility of increased fraud related to pre-existing conditions? PPS: I am not a Republican. Nor a Democrat. There's a 3rd group: Fiscal Conservative - you may want to try that.

[punjabi_khota]

^how do claim "country" will crumble under its weight when the congressional budget office is predicting $120 billion will be cut from deficit :hmmm:

[Clarke]

^how do claim "country" will crumble under its weight when the congressional budget office is predicting $120 billion will be cut from deficit :hmmm:

Trouble is such estimates are way off the mark most of the time. The same thing happened with medicare a few decades back.

[Lurker]

The Varieties of Excessive Costs The excessive costs of our current medical system can be classified into three major categories: • The first, and by far the largest excess cost, is due to the current overuse of medical resources by patients. Overuse is the rational response of consumers who do not have to pay the entire cost of the medical services they use. The causes of those excess costs are Medicaid, Medicare, and tax laws that provide incentives for individuals to have their employers purchase their medical care in the form of private health insurance. • The second category of excess cost consists of administrative and paperwork costs that are unnecessary for the provision of health care, but that have come into existence because of the current patchwork of third-party payers and their attempts to control their increasing costs by closely monitoring the behavior of doctors and patients. Even worse is the fact that those cost-containment activities do not seem to have contained costs very well. • The third excess cost is associated with the fear of malpractice suits. Administering medically unnecessary tests and procedures helps to insulate doctors and hospitals from the potential wrath of patients or their families when inevitable accidents occur in medical treatment or when treatments just do not work.

Or we can sum it in one word - Greed. All the mumbo-jumbo that Republicans spew out (not saying you are one of those), they forget the basic issue at play here, greed of the Industry. I was once lucky enough to work for a top 3 Pharma giant and since this project was for Accounting team I had access to their balance sheet. Imagine my surprise to see this company putting billions into a "bucket" for legal issues, should they happen. And who pays for these billions? Why consumers of course. The company did not take it out of their Profits, they simply added it to the cost of the medicines! If you are really worried about your taxes going up by 2% as 30 millions would be insured, maybe you should also check how your average medicine is already up by 10-20% to "avoid" legal issues of others. Fair is fair right? xxx

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^how do claim "country" will crumble under its weight when the congressional budget office is predicting $120 billion will be cut from deficit :hmmm:

They are cutting Medicare reimbursements (by $570 billion); increasing taxes on some insurance plans ($251 billion) while giving subsidies to others, and increasing payroll taxes on people making over $200,000 ($266 billion). Cutting deficits by taxing more, not by cutting costs. Myopic, to say the least. All that said, I will be remiss if I didn't admit that this bill is a lot better than the initial ones that Obama and the Congress had in place (you know, the ones with the public option and such). The democratic process and the Massachusetts election embarrassment worked to find some middle ground. May I ask - why do you not address other issues that I bring up in my posts - cost reduction/portability/insurance across state lines/tort reform/other ways of handling pre-existing conditions etc.? Are these options not viable, in your opinion? If so, why not?

[Brainfade]

Or we can sum it in one word - Greed. All the mumbo-jumbo that Republicans spew out (not saying you are one of those), they forget the basic issue at play here, greed of the Industry. I was once lucky enough to work for a top 3 Pharma giant and since this project was for Accounting team I had access to their balance sheet. Imagine my surprise to see this company putting billions into a "bucket" for legal issues, should they happen. And who pays for these billions? Why consumers of course. The company did not take it out of their Profits, they simply added it to the cost of the medicines! If you are really worried about your taxes going up by 2% as 30 millions would be insured, maybe you should also check how your average medicine is already up by 10-20% to "avoid" legal issues of others. Fair is fair right? xxx

Without a doubt, I agree. Which is why we need tort reform (among other things). Doctors need to have to stop practicing defensive medicine etc. And BTW, my taxes will not go up - I am nowhere near the income limit :-).

[Lurker]

Without a doubt, I agree. Which is why we need tort reform (among other things). Doctors need to have to stop practicing defensive medicine etc. And BTW, my taxes will not go up - I am nowhere near the income limit :-).

The whole concept of taxes is one area where I am with Conservatives (not Republican mind you). This season/month is where an average working Joe is mad at Government taxes, be he Democract or Republican. If you are lucky you have a job. If you are luckier your company has been doing good. And if you are even more lucky you get a bonus. Now we can all agree that a person gets bonus when he puts in good work and gets paid for the same (atleast thats the concept). So imagine everyone's horror when he puts in good work in an otherwise depressing year and then Govt steps in and takes half of that away as taxes. FFS.

[Brainfade]

The whole concept of taxes is one area where I am with Conservatives (not Republican mind you). This season/month is where an average working Joe is mad at Government taxes, be he Democract or Republican. If you are lucky you have a job. If you are luckier your company has been doing good. And if you are even more lucky you get a bonus. Now we can all agree that a person gets bonus when he puts in good work and gets paid for the same (atleast thats the concept). So imagine everyone's horror when he puts in good work in an otherwise depressing year and then Govt steps in and takes half of that away as taxes. FFS.

As university professors, we don't get bonuses. We just get Spring Break when we can grade and post on message boards :-)!! On an unrelated note, did you notice how the number of people without health insurance went from 47 million to 30 million in a year?

[punjabi_khota]

T May I ask - why do you not address other issues that I bring up in my posts - cost reduction/portability/insurance across state lines/tort reform/other ways of handling pre-existing conditions etc.? Are these options not viable, in your opinion? If so, why not?

Well, I admit I have been following this health care debate only for a last few months, so I am not exactly sure which estimates to believe etc, and where I stand. but lemme ask you this. Mitt Romney's health care plan for massachusetts is almost a carbon copy of this bill that we are talking about. as far as I remember, he was calling it the "perfect conservative plan"...isn't that ****ing ironic ? :hmmm: I am pretty sure it includes penalty for not having insurance, and also has this "universal healthcare" motto.

[Lurker]

As university professors, we don't get bonuses. We just get Spring Break when we can grade and post on message boards :-)!!

Bloody academics! Always suggesting things that dont work in real life :orderorder:

On an unrelated note, did you notice how the number of people without health insurance went from 47 million to 30 million in a year?

Thats dependent on the source really. Seems like everyone has different ideas of uninsured.

[Nova]

Cricaddict...you are doing your homework on this issue which is admirable. I have not read much material on this topic, so I am not in a position to discuss the minutiae. My stance is from the perspective of americans who are uninsured...so my observations might be biased. I am in favor of getting rid of pre-exisitng conditions and to get insurance to people who cannot afford it right now. I am in favor of increasing taxes for the rich. Capitalism will never end, rich people will find more ways to make more money. Let Uncle Sam have more of the dough...public welfare programs cannot be improved alone by cutting costs in other areas. I will not shed a tear for people earning more than $200,000 a year. The increase in tax for them is 2.9% which amounts to $6000 a year. Tax the rich and improve health care. The other issues of fraud are hypothetical. Medical malparactice is a separate issue too..this country is sue happy to begin with. It's in the american mind set to sue others if someone breaks a finger nail. This bill will take care of some issues at least. It's a moot point to even bring up the issue as to why the cost of health care is so high. Credit card & banks, drug corporations, automobile industry, banking sector, etc have their own agenda and lobby to keep the cost in their favor...for which I don't entirely blame them..as they are in business to make money. The common man on the other hand looks towards the government to bail them out. It certainly makes things more complicated when the economy has faltered because of dubious and unreliable mortgage practices by the banks. Also most people do not know how to save money for their future. The average american today has less than $10,000 for retirement. There are many cases where people have filed bankruptcy because of hospital bills and this has increased the economy problem for them. Taxes are increasing for the rich and this will be the highest increase in tax in US history...but it will be needed. I see no way out. Cost cutting can only do so much!

[Brainfade]

Bloody academics! Always suggesting things that dont work in real life :orderorder:

That explains why an overwhelming majority of academics are bleeding-heart liberals. I stick out like a sore thumb at my workplace (as I do on ICF :haha:)

[Clarke]

I have another view on this, somewhat endorsed by the liberals at times but hardly considered seriously. The diet of the average american is a proper example of what not to eat for a healthier life. When a third of the country is obese, neither universal healthcare nor all the financial reforms can fix this issue without affecting other fields fiscally. Children grow up eating macaroni and cheese along with sugary drinks in their childhood and move to hamburgers/steak and fries with cola as they grow up. Have you seen what a general truckers breakfast comprises of ? Fried eggs, bacon, cheese/butter, sausages and a big cup of coffee. I am not even touching the source of these food items, some of which are a result of industrial rather than agricultural practices. Neither have i touched sedentary lifestyle and exercise. Consider this data : In the beginning of the 20th century, the average woman wore a size 3.5 or 4. In the forties, she was up to 5.5 and stayed there through the sixties. By the disco years, the average woman wore a 7.5; by the eighties, she was up to 8.5. By now, the average women’s size is around 9.0. There are stats on increases in overall weight, along with the rise in healthcare costs. Coincidence ? I dont think so. Should the govt use taxation/subsidies to ensure that a buying burgers is far cheaper than cooking a healthy meal at home ? Or is that just communism ? Why subsidize the genetically altered corn in the first place ?

[Clarke]

Everyone hail Comrade Obama for bringing in real change to the Socialist Republic of America :cantstop:

[Nova]

ALL HAIL OBAMA....the bill is passed :yay: Even Palin is rockin da house..yo... and Bush is dancing....

[Brainfade]

Sweet!! Now, I am going to cancel my policy, pay the $800 fine, wait till I am sick, reinstate my policy, get treated, and cancel it again .... then GOSUB!!!

[punjabi_khota]

May I ask - why do you not address other issues that I bring up in my posts - cost reduction/portability/insurance across state lines/tort reform/other ways of handling pre-existing conditions etc.? Are these options not viable, in your opinion? If so, why not?

Insurance exchanges that are included in the plan are a step in exactly that direction. Have you looked into that ?

[Ram]

Finally, the Liberals have grown a pair!

[Nova]

Sweet!! Now, I am going to cancel my policy, pay the $800 fine, wait till I am sick, reinstate my policy, get treated, and cancel it again .... then GOSUB!!!

:cantstop: It doesn't work like that. Your policy will not be reinstated like you turn the light switch ON & OFF. Paper work takes time and in the mean time you will be incurring medical bills if you need urgent care.

[EnterTheVoid]

and Bush is dancing....

I can never imagine them doing that.