Reducing cricket to numbers

[Crookbond]

Oh he will never accept it - once he denies that his name is BossBhai' date=' even if you come up 15,000 posts to the contrary he will spin some sophistry - didn't you see the latest sophistry where I produced a delivery neither close to bat or pad, but all this character was capable of was personal attacks - not that they are wrong as long as backed up by facts?[/quote'] Unfortunately, that's what I can take from the posts. I don't mind being proven wrong and I would happy to accept it but I don't understand what makes a ICF poster's eye (and belief) more credible than cricketers (including some who have watched 3-4 generations) and Cricinfo. I have no choice but to believe the sophistry theory. Further, the abuse was even more out of the way. ICF has some rules & regulations and that posts (no matter what was posted earlier) was against the reputation of the forum. It's sad to see no action being taken. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Lurker]

Oh he will never accept it - once he denies that his name is BossBhai' date= even if you come up 15,000 posts to the contrary he will spin some sophistry - didn't you see the latest sophistry where I produced a delivery neither close to bat or pad, but all this character was capable of was personal attacks - not that they are wrong as long as backed up by facts?

That is the problem. I have seen folks on both sides, left and right, admit they have been wrong on ocassions. This includes folks like those on right like DR and lately Seedhi..On the side of left i have seen KR, you, myself admit shortcomings. BB unfortunately does not beleive in that. Oddest thing is he does not realize how extreme he has become in the process. Having rubbed shoulders with him many a times I know exactly how Kapil used to be his idol..now to get SRT up on a random thread he is not immune to pushing Kaps in the gutter, just to keep his jhanda(and agenda) flying. Ah well.

[Crookbond]

can we see these posts ?

BB, Definitely this post was a bit uncalled for : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1556261&postcount=760 I understand someone earlier said unpleasant things about you but this was definitely completely out of order.

[Lurker]

BB' date=' Definitely this post was a bit uncalled for : [url']http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1556261&postcount=760 I understand someone earlier said unpleasant things about you but this was definitely completely out of order.

Mate thanks for that but let me quickly add that me and BB go a long way back. There is a history between us, all of which is not bad actually, so its all good. We both take our anger out at each other and go home. Although in the process the website does get adversly affected in the process, I would concede that.

[Crookbond]

Mate thanks for that but let me quickly add that me and BB go a long way back. There is a history between us' date=' all of which is not bad actually, so its all good. We both take our anger out at each other and go home. Although in the process the website does get adversly affected in the process, I would concede that.[/quote'] I hope this doesn't happen in the future. :-)

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Lurker]

You have no idea what happens behind the scenes where I have sent numerous messages to people to not get bent out of shape when they don't like what I have to say on the forums. Everything from polite requests to arm twisting has been tried. I simply don't like anyone getting personal with me and everytime someone does that he will get abused very very badly. I don't really care what anybody thinks of my stand on this and this has been made very clear to the mods and admins on numerous occasions. I don't come here to indulge in slanging matches. I have enough patience and discipline to talk very respectfully to others even if I detest their views .. I expect nothing more or less in response. but rest assured I will simply not shut up and put up with potshots and insults hurled at me. I believe in burning down the entire neighbourhood of he who throws a stone at me. It works every single time. The only solution to this is being courteous. That is if they even want to respond to my posts.

Dude how do you not laugh writing completely opposite statements like those in quick succession :hysterical::hysterical: Do me a favor, go for a jog...lagta hai rakht-chaap badh gaya hai. :--D

[Crookbond]

You have no idea what happens behind the scenes where I have sent numerous messages to people to not get bent out of shape when they don't like what I have to say on the forums. Everything from polite requests to arm twisting has been tried. I simply don't like anyone getting personal with me and everytime someone does that he will get abused very very badly. I don't really care what anybody thinks of my stand on this and this has been made very clear to the mods and admins on numerous occasions. I don't come here to indulge in slanging matches. I have enough patience and discipline to talk very respectfully to others even if I detest their views .. I expect nothing more or less in response. but rest assured I will simply not shut up and put up with potshots and insults hurled at me. I believe in burning down the entire neighbourhood of he who throws a stone at me. It works every single time. The only solution to this is being courteous. That is if they even want to respond to my posts. Now feel free to ask the guy why he said unpleasant stuff when it has been made very clear that it is not on.

Sometimes, what you say you don't want to do(slanging) is exactly what you do. Irrespective of what someone has said to you, your tirade against anyone is not justified IMHO especially involving abuse of family members. I am not sure why the mods can't look into it. I hope we get to know all the behind the scene stories including the ones which you mentioned. I see a bias and so did some other posters too. Secondly, there will be a day when the similar mind will burn down you and your neighborhood when you throw a stone or a brick. If you prepare to live by the sword, be prepared to die by it. Lastly, when was the last time you categorically accepted you were wrong? Probably answering this question will make you think what at least three of us on this forum are trying to convey.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Crookbond]

Because this forum is teeming with people who like such things and the mods simply aren't interested in setting the right atmosphere as they are happy with Trolls running the show. And why is calling someone a moron justified ? I don't see you similarly lecturing Lurker why is that ? From my perspective I am well within my rights to respond in a manner that I deem fit especially when these guys arent amenable to polite requests. I suggest that you have this discussion with those that started the fist fight.

I never said that's justified.

I take great care to not hurt anybody. Take your own example here ... you did a lot of un-necessary leg pulling and taunting aimed at me ... have I ever crossed the line while responding to you ? If you noticed i simply stopped responding to you as I realized that you are not willing to let facts get in your way.

Interesting! I will let this pass as of now. We will come back to it as and when necessary. However, lets start with a clean slate. I will avoid the taunt and leg-pulling. I don't know if it was that but willing to give it the benefit-of-doubt. Batsman's game after all! :--D

Right here on this thread post#198. Infact I have apologized unconditionally to Outsider in one of the Bradman threads for being harsh on him.

Great! Good to see that. Apologies I never saw that post. Hope we all can carry the same mutual harmony henceforth.

[therocky]

Cricket is meant to be experienced not made into a number's game, the proof for that is the "highest" wicket taker in cricket is not even a bowler and a great bowler like Bhajji is called crap by so called stats experts.

[Ram]

Ahhhhh finally! :yay:

I will take your word that you never said all stats are meaningless and I don't have a problem retracting/editing that post. But you do say things like these :

Well, what a pleasant surprise?! I acknowledge your honesty. But at the same tone, you should stop simply making stuff up about what other people. I never said (and never will say) that all stats are meaningless. Why you attributed that statement to me, I don’t know. This and saying things like liberals feel burning the national flag tantamount to ‘freedom of speech…’ :headshake: Just because you don’t like somebody, does not mean you can say whatever you want about them..

If you even bothered to read my posts on SRT vs Bradman I have consistently said that you cant simply take runs scored from that ERA as being of the same value as today's

Sorry dude, disagree there. You can do weight runs by eras. A play can score runs/take wickets only against the opposition that he’s presented with. This whole exercise of ‘Ok, let me try to approximate what the runs score in the 1950s would translate in the 2010 ..’ is just plain stupid, to be honest.

and I backed it by video evidence

And I was going to ask you about that. In that video – you subtracted the time the ball was delivered by the bowler from the time it reached the batsmen, divided the length of the pitch by that figure to come up the statement that Lindwall (or whoever it was) bowled at 76 mph, correct?

. Now the Bradman supporters are getting hostile resorting to juvenile shouting matches to shout down those who are rightly calling the standards visible in those videos as appalling. But something tells me you will never take these guys on and lecture them likewise.

Umm – I don’t know if you have noticed, but I aint a member of ‘Bradman is the best ever’ club either. Frankly, I don’t think anybody can compare sportspersons across eras. The farthest I would ever go is to say that Bradman was the best of his era, while Sachin was the best of his. Of course, the fact that Bradman was so head and shoulders above his peers does point to something unusually exceptional, but still, I am not convinced.

And regarding the term anti-stats Nazis" it is similar to grammar Nazi or on the other side : Cricket Pundit. It is a way of expression meant to imply the intolerance of people towards those who use stats. I have no idea why you took it quite literally and decided to remind us of the human rights atrocities committed by the original Nazis.

Lolwut? So your explanation for such irresponsible usage of the word ‘Nazi’ is that you have seen other people also use it irresponsibly? The word ‘Nazi’ carries with itself a HUGE historical baggage. You don’t call someone you have a minor disagreement with, a ‘Nazi’. That is tasteless and classless. But coming back the central argument; My argument has never been that stats are totally useless, of course they aren’t. You highlighting that the ECB has hired 4 specialty statisticians as a vindication of what you do in ICF is hilarious, to be honest! However, in my opinion, the role of statistics in sports, especially when comparing players, should be only to augment your existing argument, like a condiment to your main course. However, increasingly, we are finding that the people are making numbers THE central facet of the argument. And you sir – with your relentless crusade of number crunching to prove that your favorite set of players are better than others, have been one of the biggest guilty parties. Instead of elevating this argument to higher levels, what it has done is to be a sumptuous source of nutrition for the jingoistic trolls on both sides. It has become so bad that the technique of stat-driven comparisons, a method that you were so instrumental in pioneering in icf before cricinfo’s database came along, has lost all context and sense. These days, its just a random collection of numbers being thrown around, like we can so easily see here; http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=268513

PS: And pls let me know if you need answers to anything else that I said in the past ...I'am not sure but I think you want an explanation to my stance regarding abuses by the poster THX_1138 and his subsequent banning. Let me know.

Oh no – I don’t require an explanation on your stance anybody.. However, I am extremely fascinated by the manner in which you (a middle aged with wife and kid(s)) chose to react that situation.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Vijay.Sharma]

So now the thread has moved to moral posturing? Cool! Mcenley, mate, you are new to the site...like me, a relatively new fella even including my previous avatar on this forum as 'nirvanam'. I just wanted to bring up this part of what you said -

ICF has some rules & regulations and that posts (no matter what was posted earlier) was against the reputation of the forum.

What do you do when Mods and Admins themselves break these rules and regulations? You know when they abuse their power? Let's focus on the italics bit. I am sorry I do not accept that code of morality. You may come from the school of thought that physical action on the field of play or it's equivalent in this context, abusive words, are not done no matter what happened before. I come from the school of thought that there are consequences to everything you choose to say or do. If you keep needling people time and time again, they will snap. And just because they snapped, it doesn't make the 'snapping' wrong. The 'needling' is equally responsible and needs to be viewed as an equal culprit / protagonist. You may not like this...but in life no event, absolutely no event, immaterial of what you have been taught by your teachers and parents and your priests, is intrinsically right or wrong. Every event becomes right (or wrong) as you change the four fundamental parameters of experience: space, time, perspective, context. So, I will rationalize that B who abused A was driven to it by A's unnecessary continuous needling. So, A deserves it and B is not exactly wrong in what he did. He reacted after his patience did not hold up any longer. And, more importantly, this viewpoint of mine is neither better nor worse, neither morally higher nor lower, neither good nor bad, than any other viewpoint including the codes that your teachers, parents, and society has taught you. When a thread moves into ridicule and personal bashing then you have a choice...get out of there. I have learned it and I have done it. If you find that individuals are getting too personal about you, you have a choice - put them in your ignore list. They will continue to make fun of you but you can hope that at some point their self worth will realize how low it is and let go off the obsession. At the end of the day you don't get to view their messages (which are anyway filthy) and in turn saves you from spoiling your mood. If you think they may be responsive then 'pm' them and let them know that it has gone too far else ignore them. More importantly, like in any other forum, this forum also has its groups and this polarization is most noticeable on Sachin's status. I am on the 'Sachin = greatest batsmen the game has known' side and from my perspective Outsider, srtsfanaticssuck, rett, etc deserve what thjey get because they shell out the same (the reaction to this post of mine will tell you more). Everyone has a choice. When they start getting personal or start deviating from the subject I excuse myself, of late. To come back to the point, nope I don't believe that some posts are downright wrong no matter what was posted earlier. Every post has a context to it and stripping it off its context is not done. So yes if abuse was dished out then look at what went before the tipping point. If there was nothing that led to such a reaction then you can declare it as a wrong thing but not until then.

[Crookbond]

So now the thread has moved to moral posturing? Cool! Mcenley, mate, you are new to the site...like me, a relatively new fella even including my previous avatar on this forum as 'nirvanam'. I just wanted to bring up this part of what you said - What do you do when Mods and Admins themselves break these rules and regulations? You know when they abuse their power? Let's focus on the italics bit. I am sorry I do not accept that code of morality. You may come from the school of thought that physical action on the field of play or it's equivalent in this context, abusive words, are not done no matter what happened before. I come from the school of thought that there are consequences to everything you choose to say or do. If you keep needling people time and time again, they will snap. And just because they snapped, it doesn't make the 'snapping' wrong. The 'needling' is equally responsible and needs to be viewed as an equal culprit / protagonist. You may not like this...but in life no event, absolutely no event, immaterial of what you have been taught by your teachers and parents and your priests, is intrinsically right or wrong. Every event becomes right (or wrong) as you change the four fundamental parameters of experience: space, time, perspective, context. So, I will rationalize that B who abused A was driven to it by A's unnecessary continuous needling. So, A deserves it and B is not exactly wrong in what he did. He reacted after his patience did not hold up any longer. And, more importantly, this viewpoint of mine is neither better nor worse, neither morally higher nor lower, neither good nor bad, than any other viewpoint including the codes that your teachers, parents, and society has taught you. When a thread moves into ridicule and personal bashing then you have a choice...get out of there. I have learned it and I have done it. If you find that individuals are getting too personal about you, you have a choice - put them in your ignore list. They will continue to make fun of you but you can hope that at some point their self worth will realize how low it is and let go off the obsession. At the end of the day you don't get to view their messages (which are anyway filthy) and in turn saves you from spoiling your mood. If you think they may be responsive then 'pm' them and let them know that it has gone too far else ignore them. More importantly, like in any other forum, this forum also has its groups and this polarization is most noticeable on Sachin's status. I am on the 'Sachin = greatest batsmen the game has known' side and from my perspective Outsider, srtsfanaticssuck, rett, etc deserve what thjey get because they shell out the same (the reaction to this post of mine will tell you more). Everyone has a choice. When they start getting personal or start deviating from the subject I excuse myself, of late. To come back to the point, nope I don't believe that some posts are downright wrong no matter what was posted earlier. Every post has a context to it and stripping it off its context is not done. So yes if abuse was dished out then look at what went before the tipping point. If there was nothing that led to such a reaction then you can declare it as a wrong thing but not until then.

Vijay, I understand where you come from. I had this in my mind : Both the needler and the needled need to be held responsible of mud slinging. Neither of them should be not rapped up for. While I totally agree that people may snap(including me), but that's what control is about. The difference between the needler and the needled is the control. It's good to see you do the highlighted. Maintain the difference and control, you will surely go places. :-)

[mishra]

Unfortunately' date=' that's what I can take from the posts. I don't mind being proven wrong and[b'] I would happy to accept it but I don't understand what makes a ICF poster's eye (and belief) more credible than cricketers (including some who have watched 3-4 generations) and Cricinfo.

The icf posters or a person from general population do not watch the cricket with a view that he will get a job in BCCI, ICC CA, PCA,PCB,ECB. They do not watch cricket because they personally know Sir Vivian Richard and if they make a comment Sir Vivian Richard will be antagonised. They do not watch cricket or make their view because there is a their own fan @ home country and fan base or media will start lashing on them. Personally, I feel a lot of cricketer have exactly same view as that of ICFers but they do not find it appropriate to express it. Because they know there are repercussions. e.g: Andrew Flintoff may be dead certain that Murali is best spinner in his All time great list. But he cant express that in public. A lot of cricket fans or fans of any game understand the game just as well as anyone else. They know what kind of ball to bowl, they know what kind of shot the batsman should play or the kind of field setting. They also recognise inherent weakness or strength of a player. Only thing is that they can not execute them. Regarding the media like espcricinfo or wisden.....Beyond certain extent The owners or writers give a damn about what fact or what is in public interest. They want you to think what they want you to think. Honestly speaking. Everyone has a interest including myself and yourself. Its how much a person or body has to loose/gain determines the level of honesty in the view

[Mariyam]

I haven't read all the posts here, but I'm of the opinion that excessive use of stats is killing cricket. Does more damage to the appeal of cricket than 5 day matches washed out by rain. In my view, stats can be used to strengthen an arguement, but should never be used as the sole basis of an arguement. They are necessary in the context of cricket, but not vital. An analogy with law: stats are like the polygraph test. They can strengthen the evidence you have and be used as a clincher. But the polygraph test alone is not going to win you cases. Neither should stats win you arguements. Cricket and cricketing greats should be appreciated for the moments of magic that they have on the field and not what a printout from ESPN tells us. If Sachin is considered a deity, its because he performs miracles. I don't remember us liking one deity more than the other just because the former on an average killed 3.2 demons per day more than the other. On the topic of Sachin vs Bradman, I sat the fence for too long. I pick Sachin as the better batsman. Many things have already been discussed, but one factor stands in Sachin's favour. Sachin has played on many more grounds against differing opponents and different forms of cricket. The unpredictability is much more today than it was during Bradman's time. It was easier for Bradman to get into the comfort zone that it is for Tendulkar.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Ram]

Apologies for the delay. Since you gave a detailed response, I thought it would not be appropriate if I threw in a 2 line reply and I couldnt find the time to get this reply in, till today. So, here we go;

Can you show me one post of mine where I have crunched stats for that ?

Duh, I didnt say you did. But its delightfully stupid to do cross-era comparisons with things like 'Player X played in 10 grounds in total, while Player Y played on 25 grounds. Player X was in tours that lasted 6 months, with half a dozen practice games. On the other hand, Player Y zips across the 4 corners of the globe and has zero time for acclimatization. Hence, Player Y >> Player X'

Yes.

Oh Deary deary me... If anybody needed a real life example of the saying 'Shooting oneself in the foot', THIS IS IT! The speed gun reading that we see on television is NOT the average speed (total pitch distance/total time it took for the ball to reach the batsmen), as you assumed it is. It is actually the speed that is measured, when the bowler RELEASES THE BALL. A cricket ball loses a significant amount of speed/momentum, every time it makes impact with the pitch. Going by your technique, For somebody like Brett Lee or Shoaib Akhtar to have an average bowling speed of 90-95 mph, their release speed must be monumental, maybe upwards of 105-110 mph! So, in your innocent eagerness to prove that Ray Lindwall was a medum pacer whose deliveries took forever to reach the batsmen, what you have inadvertently proved is that he is ACTUALLY, a bonafide 90+ MPH bowler! (if you go your calculation that the average speed is 76 mph). Thank you so much for all the hard work. Its a pity that you have worked so hard to prove yourself wrong!

Can you tell me why you find it hilarious with some examples and your reasoning ?

Err, I thought it was a no-brainer explanation, but I guess I'd have to spend an additional 2 mins typing this out. Nevermind... If and indeed ECB did hire 4 specialist statisticians, it is probably for reasons that are completely disconnected from what you do. Assuming their job responsibility is cricket-related, they probably spend most of their time helping the English cricketers hones their games and address weaknesses. For example, they can probably give somebody like Kevin Pietersen a detailed report on the specific deliveries where he was dismissed by left-arm bowlers. That report could contain data like lines, lengths, speeds, profile of bowlers etc. It could possibly answer questions like is he more susceptible to left-armers bowling around the wicket or over the wicket? or Is there one particular shot that he should probably avoid against left-armers, early on in the innings etc..That could potentially help KP address is weaknesses against bowlers of that kind. Those statisticians could also do things like help Jonathan Trott address the problem of slow starts in ODIs. Maybe, with their help, Trott could find out patterns from his ODI batting that may potentially help him think in a different way. Be that as it may, I am not exactly sure what these ECB statisticians do, but I can guarantee they dont sit in front a cheap laptop screen, calculating bowling speeds of Ray Lindwall from grainy old footage, nor will they spend all their time wishfully wondering out aloud why the bowlers in the Bradman era were mediocre and hence, he wasnt as good a batsmen. And that is EXACTLY what you spend half of your time here doing (Of course, the other half is busy spent on uncontrolled, lunatic, crazy rants against Muslims, but we will come to that later..). You're so busy crunching numbers to show how your favorite player is better than a player of another team/era, it is not even funny. Those analysis dont mean A THING and they dont prove diddly-squat. If I saw a thread from you, giving us all a detailed analysis of say the kinds of bowlers that Dravid has been getting out or how Yuvraj Singh can improve his test game, then I would personally buy you dinner in an expensive restaurant. But you're making yourself the laughing stock by doing silly 'my video-game is flashier than your video game' analysis. So in summary - the fact that ECB hired statisticians is NO WAY a vindication or a justification of what you statgurus spend most of your time doing on Cricket boards.

I don't see any stats there in that thread.

Oh dear, another no-brainer that need explanation!? You're TIRING ME OUT! Look at the challenge being thrown in that thread, what does it say?

I know your hate is embedded in your genetic code but let me dare you. How about if Bhaji performs better than Kumble on his last England visit? How about he performs as well as or better than Swann? Will you stop running your motor mouths?

The obvious implication here is - If Bhajji performs better than Kumble in his last England visit, then all the Bhajji doubters should shut shop and head home. Obviously, the so called 'fan' here obviously knows that Kumble average 40o prove that+ in his last tour to England. He's trying to mis-use that piece of STAT lay down a benchmark for judging Bhajji, as though that particular performance by Kumble is supposed to be a representative sample of Kumble's career. This is not being a bhajji fan This is classic JINGOISM, at its BEST! This IS the problem that guys like you have created. The cute little baby dinosaur that you played around with in your back-garden, fed milk and nuts and had a great time, has now grown 30 feet tall and begun to eat humans.

But if you noticed I stopped crunching stats and coming up with stats based articles a long long time ago ... few weeks ago Chandan asked me to crunch some stats for Youngsters which was my last stat based thread. One of these days I will most certainly delete all the stats that I did with Doc and the ones in the "Stats for the Boss " threads ... Cant be bothered anymore to be breaking my head with idiots who cant add more than two single digit numbers. The strange thing is sooo many people PM me asking to crunch stats ... never have refused anyone including some certified trolls but absolutely no one steps in and tells the morons that they are wrong. I find this particular aspect on ICF to be the most disheartening one. What sort of community is this where people cant even do the right thing on a freakin message board without fear or favor ?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I cant speak for others, but can do so for myself. I obviously dont have an issue with you crunching numbers. My beef is that most of them turn out to pretty meaningless and add little to no value to the debate. For the rest of the meaningless tamasha, please go here; http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=268735 I think ICF-ers have better things to do than to get up in the morning, open ICF and see two dudes having stupid arguments on the internet.