Gavaskar vs Tendulkar

[thevortex]

Lovely article, SJS! Patriot - Mate I think that helps seal the issue.

[don_corleone840]

Gavaskar was no doubt one of the greatest cricketer but even he rates sachin above him.

[Sachinism]

i dont know whom to support :hmmm:

Why do you have to pick sides?

[Sooda]

YES^^ you cannot have equal respect for both :mad: blasflamy

[Guest DeveGowda]

Why do you have to pick sides?

thought all these are just fun. no problem for me who is great or not.

[punjabi_khota]

:headshake: Never ending thread has better stuff in it than this one.

[achilles]

blasflamy

:giggle:

[patriot]

Did someone call Steve Waugh a late bloomer? What's that, a new name for someone can't make runs for his life when the pressure is on? Very weak stuff from people who purport to look at nothing but cold hard stats. Yet another factoid on this pressure-brings-out-the-best-in-me batsman: Has scored an abysmal 600 odd runs with an average of 25 in 4th innings. Predictably, not a single century.

It is better to be a late bloomer than be a perennial choker like the Bombay duck ( thats what Mr. Mcgrath the premier fast bowler of his generation serves Tendulkar out of the pressure cooker. :hysterical: ) Steve Waugh's battles against one the premier fast bowler outside his side - Ambrose , with or without adversity are stuff of legends. I still remember how in the 99 WC, Steve Waugh literally toyed around with Ambrose in that match playing him even in out of the match context, when he deliberately batted out more overs against WI to manipulate the NRR. Tendulkar's laying of hard boiled eggs when faced against daddy Mcgrath is well....:hysterical:. Never has a an all time great fast bowlers domination over an " all time great :hysterical: " batter been so utter and complete as is the case of Mcgrath vs Tendulkar.

[patriot]

Lovely article, SJS! Patriot - Mate I think that helps seal the issue.

Thevortex - you have turned out to be anything but the picture that you try to present of yourself - an honest cricket enthusiast and writer. You Sir, dissapoint. Big time. It is funny how you don't want to discuss that 9 point criteria that you yourself laid out viz a viz Gavaskar vs Tendulkar and are instead piggybacking someone who has only critiqued Gavaskar's career - That I will respond to in another post. But if euphemistic words could describe your act they would be - opportunist side stepper.

[Sooda]

Tendulkar's laying of hard boiled eggs when faced against daddy Mcgrath is well....:hysterical:. Never has a an all time great fast bowlers domination over an " all time great :hysterical: " batter been so utter and complete as is the case of Mcgrath vs Tendulkar.

Looking a bit closer at Tendulkars stats vs McGrath... He averages 37 agst Aus with GM in the side. He actually averages higher in Aus (46)-that was in the 99/00 debacle which he captained (putting it into perspective, he led one of the worst India touring sides in recent memory, including folks like Devang Gandhi, MSK Prasad, Bharadwaj agst the greatest team of all time)- than at home. At home he has had two series vs Aus with McG in the side- the famous 01 three test series where he averaged 50+, including a fine hundred at Chennai. Then there was a one off test in 96 (we won that with Nayan Mongia getting a century as opener) and the 2004 series Crucially in 2004 Tendulkar returned from a two month injury lay off with tennis elbow to face the Aussies at Nagpur. He managed, despite that, to score a quite brilliant 55 on a Mumbai minefield in the final test. Did poorly overall- averaged 17- which is hardly surprising considering the time he was out for and the fact that he was in pain. So much so that he did not even use a bat of normal weight. Havent really looked at how many times he was dismissed, but the fact remains that when they faced each other in a series the only time Tendulkar did not actually score runs either directly or indirectly due to McGrath was because he was only just returning from injury. I would argue in fact that we should not count those two tests altogether and the average would be into the high 40s... In short- youre quite wrong.

[thevortex]

Thevortex - you have turned out to be anything but the picture that you try to present of yourself - an honest cricket enthusiast and writer. You Sir, dissapoint. Big time. It is funny how you don't want to discuss that 9 point criteria that you yourself laid out viz a viz Gavaskar vs Tendulkar and are instead piggybacking someone who has only critiqued Gavaskar's career - That I will respond to in another post. But if euphemistic words could describe your act they would be - opportunist side stepper.

Patriot - I am what I am. Not that I need to explain myself to anybody here, if you get what I mean. And it follows that you are what you are. Lets leave it at that. I also believe in discussions not arguments. Feel free to use that 9 point criteria and compare whoever you want to compare. In your mind Tendulkar is mediocre and I am sure you can make a case where Praveen Amre is greater than Tendulkar.

[CSK Fan]

This is very worrying, MTC. You don't understand stats, you can't do basic maths, you can't read....have you had any education at all? I'll explain this very slowly, very patiently to you because quite clearly you struggle to keep up with the rest despite your best efforts. Don't hesitate to ask for clarification- I will repeat myself if necessary. So if Sachin averages 37 v the best bowlers and Lara averages 42, and if Sachin's overall average is 55, and Lara's is 52, how much will Sachin average vis-a-vis Lara versus the other, lesser bowlers? a. More than Lara, more even than his own career average of 55 b. More than Lara, but less than 55 c. Less than Lara d. Doesn't matter. Sachin will always average more than Lara, given MTC's maths skills. This shouldn't take you more than a few hours to work out, fella. Get started. Don't forget to take a break. I wouldn't want you to become over-wrought.

Dhondy, i will tell you where your logic is flawed. When you say matches involving so and so bowler, it does not necessarily mean that Sachin got to even face one ball of those bowlers in those matches. He might have been dismissed for a first ball duck by any other bowler in the same match. Similarly, he might have tonked those bowlers for some quick runs but got out to some no name bowlers in the same match. Wasim and Waqar have got him out only once each. Qadir troubled Sachin more than anyone in the test mathces he played with all 3 in the team So your stats are a load of BS as its only shows what you want them to show. So I am right in saying that you are twisting stats to suit yourself. I will give you an example to show how much your stats are worth. I am running a stat on world's hottest cities and find the following http://www.trivia-library.com/a/10-hottest-cities.htm 10 Hottest Cities Average Temperature (deg.F) (deg.C) 1. Timbuktu, Mali 84.7 29.3 1. Tirunelveli, Tamil Nadu, India 84.7 29.3 3. Khartoum, Sudan 84.6 29.2 3. Omdurman, Sudan 84.6 29.2 5. Madurai, Tamil Nadu, India 84.0 28.9 5. Niamey, Niger 84.0 28.9 7. Aden, Southern Yemen 83.9 28.8 8. Tiruchirapalli, Tamil Nadu, India 83.8 28.8 9. Madras, Tamil Nadu, India 83.5 28.6 10. Ouagadougou, Upper Volta 83.5 28.6 So i conclude that cities whose name start with 'T' or 'M' or 'O' are more likely to be hotter than others as thats what my stats show. With all the cities with all the names in the world, we have these letter dominating so it has to be these letters which cause the heat That would be the conlusion I would reach if i used a linear logic based on limited stats. When i filter out only with the cities name, thats what happens. I am also filtering out 100 other reasons like where the city is located, proximity to sea, the height from sea level and so on. This is the same thing u are doing. You are using one filter(name of bowler) and ignoring a 100 other filters which would have attributed for how Sachin scored in those matches. Just because Sachin's average is low in the matches involving the said bowlers does not automaticaly mean that his average is low because of those bowlers. I may as well conclude that Bradman scores better than Sachin because alphabeticaly 'B' comes before 'T' and it will make as much sense as your stats

[Roshanrocks]

Just because Sachin's average is low in the matches involving the said bowlers does not automaticaly mean that his average is low because of those bowlers.

Mind if I show you how right you are? :D

[Lurker]

http://www.trivia-library.com/a/10-hottest-cities.htm 10 Hottest Cities Average Temperature (deg.F) (deg.C) 1. Timbuktu, Mali 84.7 29.3 1. Tirunelveli, Tamil Nadu, India 84.7 29.3 3. Khartoum, Sudan 84.6 29.2 3. Omdurman, Sudan 84.6 29.2 5. Madurai, Tamil Nadu, India 84.0 28.9 5. Niamey, Niger 84.0 28.9 7. Aden, Southern Yemen 83.9 28.8 8. Tiruchirapalli, Tamil Nadu, India 83.8 28.8 9. Madras, Tamil Nadu, India 83.5 28.6 10. Ouagadougou, Upper Volta 83.5 28.6 So i conclude that cities whose name start with 'T' or 'M' or 'O' are more likely to be hotter than others as thats what my stats show. With all the cities with all the names in the world, we have these letter dominating so it has to be these letters which cause the heat That would be the conlusion I would reach if i used a linear logic based on limited stats. When i filter out only with the cities name, thats what happens. I am also filtering out 100 other reasons like where the city is located, proximity to sea, the height from sea level and so on. This is the same thing u are doing. You are using one filter(name of bowler) and ignoring a 100 other filters which would have attributed for how Sachin scored in those matches. Just because Sachin's average is low in the matches involving the said bowlers does not automaticaly mean that his average is low because of those bowlers. I may as well conclude that Bradman scores better than Sachin because alphabeticaly 'B' comes before 'T' and it will make as much sense as your stats

Based on these stats one thing is for sure I am not visiting Tamil Nadu anytime in the near future :giggle:

[Sooda]

^ Ya dont man, its a dump :headshake:

[Roshanrocks]

Tendulkar VS McGrath - Test by Test Analysis Check the link http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting;view=match Sachin n Mcgrath played together in 9 matches; Sachin scored 662 runs in 18 innings at an average of 36.77. Looks less doesnt it? But wait.... lets dig deeper lets now look at each of the test matches.... FIRST TEST. http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63721.html 1st Innings Sachin plays 12 balls scores 10 runs and is dismissed by Mc Intyre, even though he also is a "Mc" it doesnt qualify as a wicket taken by McGrath. Since Sachin faced a total of 12 balls, there is no way McGrath influenced the dismissal....(Minus 1) 2nd Innings McGrath gets Sachin for a duck in 6 balls...wonderful SECOND TEST http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63865.html 1st Innings Sachin scores 61 runs and his wicket is taken by Warne, not McGrath but Warne, Do you remember how he got out? No? Watch this video... [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3rtn3LVio8]YouTube- Shane Warne Removes Sachin Tendulkar[/ame] Wrong decision bugger... so.... (minus 2) for wrong decision unless McGrath promised some special play time to the umpire, which even then is diqualified. the ball never touched the bat, the bat hit the ground. 2nd Innings McGrath gets Sachin out for another duck... but hey do u remember how he got out? no? shoulder before wicket..... call it whatever you want.... but that wicket was a freakin flukey So another ....(Minus 3 [ame=

Weird sachin dismissal[/ame] minus 3 already... Sachin's averge had shot up to 44 which i suppose is quite good against the world's premier fast bowler. No? No... You still feel its less? ok lets analyse further test matches THIRD TEST. http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63866.html 1st Innings Tendulkar scores 116 out of India's 238, and was the 9th man dismissed to ..... not mcGrath but Fleming check this article. http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/79208.html

Somewhat unsurpisingly, it was yet again the brilliant Tendulkar (116) who was answering the unenviable call to shore up India's battered defences in the meantime. After an engrossing battle with a bouncer-hungry McGrath had kept him subdued through the early part of his stay, he gradually began to increase his scoring rate with a number of beautifully crafted strokes. Of these, none was more outrageously brilliant than a superb lofted off drive from Warne which sailed well over the fence and into the midst of a delighted Indian throng sitting in the lower reaches of the Southern Stand. But either side of that stroke, there were many to please the eye. Quite simply, his sense of assurance and sheer range of shots against an adroitly rotated attack were perfectly applied in these hostile circumstances. In the course of registering a chanceless hundred (his 22nd of all time, his fifth against Australia and his first at this venue), he never seemed ill at ease and he played shots to all parts of the ground. He was probably never more at home than when he was driving into and through the covers - and he did so in both a forthright manner and on a serial basis until the moment in the shadow of stumps at which he skied a hook to Justin Langer at deep backward square leg off the bowling of Fleming.

So quite easily surmised that had Sachin got support at the other end he would have easily scored more, he had to hit out to score runs quickly, and in no way did McGrath conttribute to anything to cause his dismissal... another ....(Minus 4) bugger :D Sachin's average has shot to ...how much..? calculated??? no??? let me do it for you, its 47.28 :D 2nd Innings Tendulkar scored 52 out of India's 195, agains top scoring... and he lost his wicket to Warne and not Mc Grath. FOURTH TEST http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63867.html 1st Innings McGrath gets tendulkar for 45..... well done... lbw... i dont have a video, must have been a good decision who knows 2nd Innings In the second innings Sachin lost his wicket to Fleming, he had played only 6 balls and scored 4 runs off McGrath, that i can confirm, SO McGrath doesnot cause the dismissal of Tendulkar, another....(Minus 5) baby Now Sachin's average has already shot up to..... you know how much? 50.92 now thats a good average.....but i have another 5 more tests to check......:D

[Roshanrocks]

And i am sure i remember another test match dismissal .... see how sachin got out? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A82awnMlKvM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube- Ricky Ponting's Amazing Catch of Sachin Tendulkar[/ame] Ball richochets off Langer at short leg and cought brilliantly by Ponting.... Thats another flukey in my book....By the way.... McGrath didnt "again" take his wicket SO minus 6 Tendulkar's average has shot to ....let me see.... 662 / 12 = 55.16 i am sure if i keep digging the average would go higher n higher

[Sooda]

Frack me Roshan, what can I say bro thats dedication and a great post :two_thumbs_up: I attempted to do something like that above in post #141, but mine seriously pales in comparision to the above. You could argue (as Patriot might well) that McG creates pressure at one end for the likes of Fleming and Warne to pick up wkts at the other Regardless though- the below par average does not take into account the wrong decisions as you rightly point out, nor the matches where SRT had just returned from injury layoff. (..not quite sure how you re calculated the average but what the hey...) ...and we awaiteth the response...

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[suraj]

Awesome posts Roshan :two_thumbs_up::two_thumbs_up: