Pakistan is 10th most failed state

[Clarke]

I beleive your argument would be Juarez versus El Paso, or Tijuana versus San Diego.

I guess so.

Before you recommend the reason(s) why violence is lower on American side you should also understand why violence is larger on Mexico side - American guns. I know its kind of off-topic but your argument of Mexico violence is too simplistic and doesnt point fingers where it should.

Well as i stated, events in Pakistan are barely influenced as per India's intentions and desires. Looking at the reasons for the problems within Pakistan (or Mexico) is out of scope when talking of collateral damage unless one suggests India, by its deliberate and provoking actions, is directly responsible for Pakistan's problems. That might be true in terms of American arms and ammunition in the hands of drug cartels but actually works in the opposite direction in the India-Pakistan conundrum.

[yoda]

Point me to one Pakistani citizen who unilaterally chose to become a terrorist and simply infiltrated across the border and started bombing people. The point I am trying to make is – Yes, our people are a lot more moderate than them, but their govt. actively seeks to radicalize their peoples to forward their narrow political interests.

Even the 9/11 terrorists were recruited, trained and sent by AQ and Osama. Poor them, for all they did was get radicalized by AQ. :hehe: Even Osama became radicalized due to the plight of Palestinian people and the US polluting Saudi and their holy Mecca with the infidels. Poor him also :hehe:

[Mamu]

You’re absolutely right. There’s a general trend of animosity and distrust for Indians among Pakistanis that cannot be denied, but I am sure you will agree when I say that among average Indians, you can find very similar reciprocal sentiments for Pakistanis as well. So what differentiates the two nations? While peoples of both countries distrust each other equally, some elements in the Pakistani govt. have successfully managed to institutionalize terror as an instrument of state policy, while Indians hesitate to employ similar tactics (Make no mistake, Indian governmental agencies continue to support at various levels, anti-establishment, renegade groups in Pakistan. The only difference is, we keep it down to a level that is not easy to be perceived). Pakistan, on the other hand, has an entire foreign and military policy that is based on the sole cause of under-mining Indian interests and destabilizing our Republic. We never stoop down to those levels. And that’s partly because, our leaders over the years have been great statesmen and mainly because in our country, the institutions of legislature and judiciary is simply strong for the executive branch of govt. to simply run away with whatever it wants to do. If we have to go down the path of reproachment (which quite really, is the only option, given the alternative is a protracted proxy war over several decades or a disastrous nuclear confrontation over a short-time), we have to encourage moderate forces in Pakistan to get into the government so that they begin to influence official policy. It wont be easy and it wont be fast, but that is the ONLY long-term, lasting solution. Of course, at the same time we must do all we can to strengthen our defences and deter future terror attacks on our homeland on one hand, while working with world powers and institutions to convince Pakistani intelligentsia and centers of power that they must abandon terror as an instrument of state policy. And If you had noticed, that is what is happening already, especially after Septermber 11. Obviously, it will be impossible to stop terror attacks completely, but the least we can do is to minimize the casualties while the wheels of change are in motion.

One Word EDUCATION --- when you are taught the wrong things you will learn wrong things. Everyone there is taught to believe Pakistan is the supreme nation on earth. They have the best army on earth. They won ALL WARS against India All Non-Muslims are Kafirs When an average paki grows up getting wrongly educated -- they will tend to believe that.

[Ram]

He is currently standing trial and facing the death penalty for the Mumbai attacks. The others were killed.

Kasab was recruited, trained and armed by Lashkar-e-Toiba, he did not simply get up one morning from his sleep and chose to cross over to India.

So the fight was against the Taliban and not Pakistan itself. Also the Northern Alliance was in Afghanistan ... how did India help fight against the govt of Pakistan.. unless you mean that fighting against the Taliban means taking on Pakistan directly. Has any Indian group been guilty of the bomb blasts that have become so commonplace in Pak?

Dude, I dont know what to say man. We can have a debate over opinions, but I dont know how to debate with you on facts. If you're not willing concede that Indian intelligence agencies provided both covert and overt support to secessionist movements in Pakistan, then its really not my job to educate you.

Fact of the matter is that there are some things that cannot be solved. I am not saying that we should give up on peace.... but chances of Pak ever finding peace with India is non-existent. In fact during the 60s and early 70s Pak was doing much better than India economically. That didn't stop them from initiating 2 wars against us.

You speak as though the status-quo is something we can live with. It doesnt seem that way. You may very well be right, we may never achieve lasting peace with Pakistan, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try.

[Ram]

Even the 9/11 terrorists were recruited, trained and sent by AQ and Osama. Poor them, for all they did was get radicalized by AQ. :hehe: Even Osama became radicalized due to the plight of Palestinian people and the US polluting Saudi and their holy Mecca with the infidels. Poor him also :hehe:

This is what happens when you read isolated portions of random posts and type replies to it - Stuff that has very little relevance to the larger debate gets posted.

[Ram]

except that it isnt intermittent. Its a constant. Right from 622 AD and most importantly by-and-large one way. and dont forget to answer my question .... in the spirit of "debate"

Totally agree dude, its obvious the tyrannical Muslim rulers of the past and the hateful Holy text of the Prophet that's the root and sole cause for all the problems facing us today. Is it of any relevance that Muslim nation states were subjected to decades of imperialist oppression by Western powers, or the fact that the very Western govts. who are the ultimate souls of purity in your opinion have a long and chequered history of propping up Muslim tyrants and dictators who have oppressed their very own people. How does it matter that the creation of the state of Israel has caused racial and ethnic wounds that are still deeply etched in many peoples minds, or the fact that the very same Israeli govt. can bomb the impoverished area of Gaza with hazardous material 1000s of innocent men, women and children. If that wasnt worse, Israel will then go on and impose a draconian blockade on the entire region and turn the entire place into a humanitarian disaster. How does it matter that the very same Osama Bin Laden whom US has declared enemy no.1 was in part helped to grow by the very same US itself, because he helped organize the Mujahideen fight against the Soviet in Afghanistan. Maybe we should also ignore that the Saddam Hussein, who was overthrown in a phony war based on fabricated evidence that massacred 5,00,000 people, was given covert support by the US govt. during the 80s' war against Iran. Could it be of any worth that the same Muslim dictators people accuse of committing gross human rights violations, guys like Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, or the House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, are govts. openly propped by Western powers, just like how Mussharraf was supported during the war of convenience? You're absolutely right dude - We're all so naive in trying to find sophisticated answers to some of the most complex questions that have dogged our minds? We should try to keep things simple and look for one simple answer. In that regard, I agree - Its all the fault of the Muslims and the Quran... And oh btw, along with the round donuts and the evil Gujjus who keep buying Dunkin Donuts all over the east coast.

[yoda]

This is what happens when you read isolated portions of random posts and type replies to it - Stuff that has very little relevance to the larger debate gets posted.

random post it sure was :giggle:

[bharathh]

Kasab was recruited' date=' trained and armed by Lashkar-e-Toiba, he did not simply get up one morning from his sleep and chose to cross over to India. [/quote'] So according to you, only if you wake up one fine day and cross over the border to kill people you really mean to kill others? :blink: All the guys who crossed over on 26 Nov joined the LeT to get trained to attack India. I admit that Kasab apparently just wanted to become a better thief when he joined up... Who knows what the other 12 or so who joined with him wanted to become? Until proven otherwise given their actions, I would say that they joined up to kill them some Indians.

Dude' date=' I dont know what to say man. We can have a debate over opinions, but I dont know how to debate with you on facts. If you're not willing concede that Indian intelligence agencies provided both covert and overt support to secessionist movements in Pakistan, then its really not my job to educate you. [/quote'] I just asked you which secessionist movement does India support. There is no evidence indicating that India actively has or does support any secessionist movements in Pak. Whatever we know so far is just hearsay spouted by conspiracy theorists in Pak. I am perfectly capable of believing that India does support the TTP or the Punjab TTP or FTP or whatever they call themselves now. I am just puzzled that the govt doesn't so confused that they probably support the wrong guys at the end.

You speak as though the status-quo is something we can live with. It doesnt seem that way. You may very well be right' date=' we may never achieve lasting peace with Pakistan, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try.[/quote'] I did mention that we shouldn't give up on the idea of peace - but for that you need to have some element of mutual trust. I just believe that that era of mutual trust can never arrive, because the power brokers in Pak currently get to rule over Pak by telling everyone India is the bogeyman and only they can protect them from it. Who is going to get rid of these power brokers? Only the people of Pak can. Until that happens, aman ki asha will remain a nirasha.

[Ram]

So according to you, only if you wake up one fine day and cross over the border to kill people you really mean to kill others? :blink: All the guys who crossed over on 26 Nov joined the LeT to get trained to attack India. I admit that Kasab apparently just wanted to become a better thief when he joined up... Who knows what the other 12 or so who joined with him wanted to become? Until proven otherwise given their actions, I would say that they joined up to kill them some Indians.

Huh, Who said they didn’t? I am not going debate on how a significantly larger section of the Pakistani population is radicalized when compared to our population. That is a FACT. But here’s where we disagree. In my opinion, the above is the case not because fundamentally the Pakistani people are any more extremist than Indians, it is that their govt. has institutionalized terror as an instrument policy, thus opening up more avenues for the disillusioned sections of their population to get radicalized. Now, I clearly don’t see any confusion in what I typed. You seem to have plenty of problems comprehending it though.

I just asked you which secessionist movement does India support. There is no evidence indicating that India actively has or does support any secessionist movements in Pak. Whatever we know so far is just hearsay spouted by conspiracy theorists in Pak. I am perfectly capable of believing that India does support the TTP or the Punjab TTP or FTP or whatever they call themselves now. I am just puzzled that the govt doesn't so confused that they probably support the wrong guys at the end.

As I said, while definitely entitled to your opinion, you’re not entitled to your own facts. When you so casually say ‘There is no evidence indicating that India actively has or does support any secessionist movements in Pak’, it doesn’t mean there’s no evidence, it means you’re just ignorant of the FACTS. Its not my business to educate someone on FACTS on a MB.

[bharathh]

Huh' date=' Who said they didn’t? I am not going debate on how a significantly larger section of the Pakistani population is radicalized when compared to our population. That is a FACT. But here’s where we disagree. In my opinion, the above is the case not because fundamentally the Pakistani people are any more extremist than Indians, it is that their govt. has institutionalized terror as an instrument policy, thus opening up more avenues for the disillusioned sections of their population to get radicalized.[/quote'] :two_thumbs_up: on agreeing upon something. My point is that the govt will not want to drop this institutionalizing in the foreseeable future. That is their modus operandi for staying in power. It doesn't matter who comes into power. All of them do the same thing. What chance does peace have until this stops happening?

As I said' date=' while definitely entitled to your opinion, you’re not entitled to your own facts. When you so casually say ‘There is no evidence indicating that India actively has or does support any secessionist movements in Pak’, it doesn’t mean there’s no evidence, it means you’re just ignorant of the FACTS. Its not my business to educate someone on FACTS on a MB.[/quote'] Bhai.. you quoted some book which said that India has supported Northern Alliance against Taliban in Afghanistan. I completely agree.. My question is how does that equate to destabilizing Pak or supporting groups that destabilize Pak? When did the Northern Alliance invade Pak?

[Ram]

:two_thumbs_up: on agreeing upon something. My point is that the govt will not want to drop this institutionalizing in the foreseeable future. That is their modus operandi for staying in power. It doesn't matter who comes into power. All of them do the same thing. What chance does peace have until this stops happening?

Absolutely, why would elements that benefit from the status-quo want to change it? Which is why I said, it is up to us to strengthen forces of progression, modernity and democratic values within the Pakistani society such that they gain ground, get into politics/govt and start influencing official policy. This sort of thing happens all over the world all the time

: Bhai.. you quoted some book which said that India has supported Northern Alliance against Taliban in Afghanistan. I completely agree.. My question is how does that equate to destabilizing Pak or supporting groups that destabilize Pak? When did the Northern Alliance invade Pak?

Mate, I said it was one of the instances of support of anti-Pakistani groups by Indian intelligence groups, I didn’t say it was the ONLY instance. I also did mention we provided covert support for the Baloch nationalist movement. So, it is for me to mention it and for you to verify it for yourself. Don’t expect me to go looking for evidence to post here. As I said, I’ve come across multiple sources where this has been mentioned, finding proof for it shouldn’t be too hard for you.

[asterix]

There's no proof of India's involvement in Balochistan. If there's any proof Pakistan would've latched on it and presented the facts to the World. The thing is, we as a country has enough problems in our hands already and we are trying to sort them out. We cannot go around in our neighbourhood to sort their problems out. They have solve their own problems. A nation and it's citizen helps themselves to solve their own problems. The Pak lawyers managed to pull down Musharraf. It's their problem and they have to solve it, if they have the will.

[bharathh]

Absolutely' date=' why would elements that benefit from the status-quo want to change it? Which is why I said, it is up to us to strengthen forces of progression, modernity and democratic values within the Pakistani society such that they gain ground, get into politics/govt and start influencing official policy. This sort of thing happens all over the world all the time[/quote'] How does one do that when they regard everything you do with hostility?

Mate' date=' I said it was one of the instances of support of anti-Pakistani groups by Indian intelligence groups, I didn’t say it was the ONLY instance. I also did mention we provided covert support for the Baloch nationalist movement. So, it is for me to mention it and for you to verify it for yourself. Don’t expect me to go looking for evidence to post here. As I said, I’ve come across multiple sources where this has been mentioned, finding proof for it shouldn’t be too hard for you.[/quote'] ?? You said it was a fact. Where would I find these facts? I haven't read any statement that says that this is true. Just some rants which go something like "If you think outside the box, it is obvious that India supports the Baloch movement and FTP". You think the Pak leadership would not have worn themselves down to the bone crying about this proof at international conventions right from cake making conventions to WWE Monday night raw if any such provable facts existed? They haven't done it so far. You tell me where you have seen these facts?

[asterix]

No He doesn't have the facts. He says that you have to find out the fact. Just like when I say, "Jadeja is Dhoni's haremboy and it's a fact". If you don't agree then find out the facts yourselves..

[Ram]

Lol, this is hilarious, You guys obviously think the intelligence agencies’ main day job is to play hungry-hungry hippos.. :haha:

[bharathh]

Lol' date=' this is hilarious, You guys obviously think the intelligence agencies’ main day job is to play hungry-hungry hippos.. :haha:[/quote'] So you don't have any FACTS? It's ok admit that. You don't lose anything.

[Ram]

So you don't have any FACTS? It's ok admit that. You don't lose anything.

I told you earlier, its not my job to educate you. If you're completely ignorant and oblvious to how competing intelligence agencies act, then it is not my problem. I am guessing you guys think RAW agents spend the day painting their fences and mowing their lawns. :haha:

[bharathh]

I told you earlier, its not my job to educate you. If you're completely ignorant and oblvious to how competing intelligence agencies act, then it is not my problem. I am guessing you guys think RAW agents spend the day painting their fences and mowing their lawns. :haha:

Perhaps you can tell me what the curriculum to understand how an intelligence agency works is. Which college offers it? Think you are doing an ignoramus a favor and tell me. I am interested in becoming a spy which you obviously seem to be. Or maybe you are the handler type that pulls all the strings. So does 007 really get all those hot chicks?

[Ram]

Perhaps you can tell me what the curriculum to understand how an intelligence agency works is. Which college offers it? Think you are doing an ignoramus a favor and tell me. I am interested in becoming a spy which you obviously seem to be. Or maybe you are the handler type that pulls all the strings. So does 007 really get all those hot chicks?

Sorry fella, you need basic amount of intellect to become a spy. Besides, you'd make a pathetic spy, since you think all they do is sit around and watch reality TV shows all days. And how did you know i am spy? OMG! my cover is blown! :(( And reg. 007, the last time i spoke to him, he told chicks are harder to get these days.. seems like they prefer investment bankers more these days.. wanna become an IB? You dont need too much intelligence for that, just have to be scrupulous..

[asterix]

Even Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, Homolulu might have their own intelligence agencies and might not be sitting, doing nothing, twiddling their thumbs. Every country has their own security/intelligence/counter-intelligence agencies. So what's the point?