Pakistan is 10th most failed state

[bharathh]

Sorry fella, you need basic amount of intellect to become a spy. Besides, you'd make a pathetic spy, since you think all they do is sit around and watch reality TV shows all days. And how did you know i am spy? OMG! my cover is blown! :(( And reg. 007, the last time i spoke to him, he told chicks are harder to get these days.. seems like they prefer investment bankers more these days.. wanna become an IB? You dont need too much intelligence for that, just have to be scrupulous..

:hysterical: Just as I suspected. Boss so you don't really have any facts. Anyways let's move on to the next topic. Nothing more to add I suppose.

[Ram]

:hysterical: Just as I suspected. The facts you were talking about are thought up under a lal topi!

Just like how ignorance resides in your mind? :hysterical:

[Ram]

Even Nepal' date=' Bhutan, Burma, Homolulu might have their own intelligence agencies and might not be sitting, doing nothing, twiddling their thumbs. Every country has their own security/intelligence/counter-intelligence agencies. So what's the point?[/quote'] The fact isn’t about who or who does not have intelligence agencies, the fact is what they do with it.. If undermining Pakistani intesests and diverting their attention away from the proxy war against India isn’t the job of our intelligence guys, I don’t know what is.

[bharathh]

Just like how ignorance resides in your mind? :hysterical:

Whatever makes you happy boss. You and I have no idea what the Indian intelligence agency does. You are supposing that they do this and that and say that they are facts. Then you call me clueless. Anyways... to each his(or her) own.

[The Outsider]

There are numerous third party research and accounts of ISI involvement in Kashmir and propping up the terrorist groups there like LeT and JeM. I would be interested in reading such neutral accounts from reputed sources of RAW involvement in Balochistan over the last 10-15 years. Can someone point me to a few?

[Ram]

Whatever makes you happy boss. You and I have no idea what the Indian intelligence agency does. You are supposing that they do this and that and say that they are facts. Then you call me clueless. Anyways... to each his(or her) own.

Speak for yourself dude, dont make assumptions about others.. You dont have to be a spy, nor do you have to be in govt. to figure out intelligence people do.. Their primary role is to undermine the enemy and secure our security. That is obviously self-evident.

[bharathh]

Speak for yourself dude' date=' dont make assumptions about others.. You dont have to be a spy, nor do you have to be in govt. to figure out intelligence people do.. Their primary role is to undermine the enemy and secure our security. That is obviously self-evident.[/quote'] Regardless of the quality of your intuitive powers, these are not facts.

[asterix]

The fact isn’t about who or who does not have intelligence agencies, the fact is what they do with it.. If undermining Pakistani intesests and diverting their attention away from the proxy war against India isn’t the job of our intelligence guys, I don’t know what is.

Yes, Sriram..Then why do you term this as an activity to destablise Pakistan? You think if thses activities wouldn't have been done, the World and our region would've been a safer place? Arre bhai, here we have a rampaging bull, pulling all stops to harm us in whatever means possible (and has done with impunity in Kashmir, Punjab, Assam etc.). And you say that the situation has gone bad to worse by RAW getting involved in the Western border of Pakistan? This is a clear case of "Eik to andhe se marwao aur phir usko ghar bhi chhorne jao" (Translation: Getting fecked up by a Blind man and then escort him back to his home too).. Aree, have some self esteem.

[Ram]

To whoever this may concern; Here’s a report from the Council of Foreign relations, an American nonprofit and nonpartisan organization dedicated to improving the understanding of U.S. foreign policy and international affairs.

In retaliation, in the mid-1980s, RAW set up two covert groups of its own, Counter Intelligence Team-X (CIT-X) and Counter Intelligence Team-J (CIT-J), the first targeting Pakistan in general and the second directed at Khalistani groups. The two groups were responsible for carrying out terrorist operations inside Pakistan (Newsline), writes Pakistani military expert Ayesha Siddiqa. Indian journalist and associate editor of Frontline magazine, Praveen Swami, writes that a "low-grade but steady campaign of bombings in major Pakistani cities, notably Karachi and Lahore" was carried out. This forced the head of ISI to meet his counterpart in RAW and agree on the rules of engagement as far as Punjab was concerned, writes Siddiqa. The negotiation was brokered by then-Jordanian Crown Prince Hassan bin-Talal, whose wife, Princess Sarvath, is of Pakistani origin. "It was agreed that Pakistan would not carry out activities in the Punjab as long as RAW refrained from creating mayhem and violence inside Pakistan," Siddiqa writes.

Praveen Swami is one of the most widely respected Indian journalists on security affairs. He says that when Pakistan started supporting Khalistan terrorists in Punjab, our agencies began bombing targets in Lahore and Karachi in retaliation. The logic is simple – If you bleed me, I will bleed you even more. This is our direct proof of the involvement of our agencies engaging in both covert and overt subsersive activities in Pakistani mainland. From the same article;

In the past, Pakistan also accused RAW of supporting Sindhi nationalists demanding a separate state, as well as Seraikis calling for a partition of Pakistan's Punjab to create a separate Seraiki state. India denies these charges. However, experts point out that India has supported insurgents in Pakistan's Balochistan, as well as anti-Pakistan forces in Afghanistan

http://www.cfr.org/publication/17707/raw.html#p5 Richard Clarke, former Counter-terrorism chief under the Clinton administration, openly complaints in his book 'Against all Enemies: Inside America’s War on Terror’ that the CIA simply stood by and watched the Taliban grow in the 90s, while it was only the Russians and Indians who were supporting the Northern alliance that was fighting the Taliban, which was obviously massively supported by ISI. According to him, our intelligence was involved in directly countering Pakistani backed forces in a third country. If our people are going to fight ISI and their allied interests in a third country, wont they do it in Pakistan itself? And here's Ved Marwah, former head of our National Security Guard, talking about our influence in Balochistan;

Well from all accounts and reports, the situation in Kashmir is certainly not improving. Pakistan is hoping to destabilise the state and also taking active steps towards that direction. Now as far as dealing with Pakistan is concerned, I think we should know where we have our leverage. We have our leverage in Balochistan and in some other parts of Pakistan. What we really need to convey to Pakistan is that if they commit a blatant anti-India act on the ground, a military act or otherwise, it will have to bear the repercussions. We have to respond when they blatantly cross or breach the ceasefire line or the ceasefire agreement. We must retaliate quietly but firmly and make the right diplomatic noises to cover it. I would say that diplomatically, I am not too unhappy with our dealings with Pakistan.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/68505/How+to+tackle+an+obstinate+Pakistan.html?complete=1 What do you guys think he’s talking about when he says ‘we have our leverage in Balochistan..’? That RAW has the ability to plant apple orchards or rice fields there? And if that doesn’t convince you, here’s B.Raman, former cabinet secretary of RAW, penning an open letter to Sonia Gandhi, asking her to extend full moral support for the Baloch nationalists, calling the struggle for an independent Balochistan as an ‘unfinished agenda of the Partition.’ http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/07/demonisation-of-baloch-freedom-struggle.html He also says, in 2002 that 'The role of our cover action capability in putting an end to the ISI's interference in Punjab, by making such interference prohibitively costly is little known and understood' I have several other links to independent Pakistani writers/analysts (not every Pakistan’s a nutjob ya know..) who have written extensive who talk in specific detail about what India did in Balochistan to undermine Pakistan. I have even come across Baloch leaders openly expressing gratitude for the support offered to them by their ‘Indian friends’. But for the sake of objectivity, I have avoided all those sources. The plain FACT is, our intelligence agencies have indulged in significant, If not large-scale covert and overt against Pakistani interests not just in Pakistan, but also outside it. That is the bare art of counter-insurgency. You hit your enemy where it hurts most. Anyone here who think we simply stood by and watched as ISI spread its tentacles in Punjab in the 80s and Kashmir in the 90s is simply deluding themselves.

[Ram]

Yes, Sriram..Then why do you term this as an activity to destablise Pakistan? You think if thses activities wouldn't have been done, the World and our region would've been a safer place? Arre bhai, here we have a rampaging bull, pulling all stops to harm us in whatever means possible (and has done with impunity in Kashmir, Punjab, Assam etc.). And you say that the situation has gone bad to worse by RAW getting involved in the Western border of Pakistan? This is a clear case of "Eik to andhe se marwao aur phir usko ghar bhi chhorne jao" (Translation: Getting fecked up by a Blind man and then escort him back to his home too).. Aree, have some self esteem.

Huh, you completely lost me there mate. I don’t even know where to start, but line after line of your post is blatant mis-characterization of my position. Where did I the RAW’s involvement in Pakistan has made the situation ‘worse’? The other dude (bharath) says our intelligence agencies never took part in any covert activities in Pakistan (specifically Balochistan). I was simply responding to him and said that was patently false and our agencies have a long history of subversive activities against Pakistan interests not just in Pakistani mainland, but outside Pakistan as well.

[bharathh]

Huh' date=' you completely lost me there mate. I don’t even know where to start, but line after line of your post is blatant mis-characterization of my position. Where did I the RAW’s involvement in Pakistan has made the situation ‘worse’? The other dude (bharath) says our intelligence agencies never took part in any covert activities in Pakistan (specifically Balochistan). I was simply responding to him and said that was patently false and our agencies have a long history of subversive activities against Pakistan interests not just in Pakistani mainland, but outside Pakistan as well.[/quote'] Please tell me what subversive activities have been identified with Indian Intel agencies. You are now talking about covert activities. There is a big difference. List one incident... any one incident in Balochistan where Indians associated with the Intel agencies of India have been caught by Pakistanis. Here is a list of the functions of R&AW on wikipedia which have been drawn from various books that I will never have the patience or time to read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_and_Analysis_Wing

[Ram]

Please tell me what subversive activities have been identified with Indian Intel agencies. You are now talking about covert activities. There is a big difference. List one incident... any one incident in Balochistan where Indians associated with the Intel agencies of India have been caught by Pakistanis. Here is a list of the functions of R&AW on wikipedia which have been drawn from various books that I will never have the patience or time to read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_and_Analysis_Wing

What? Are you even serious? How about I massage your legs in the meantime as well? Dude, who do you think I am? Some sort of senior intelligence dude with clearance to classified info? I can only give you pointers, if you cannot understand even now, it’s a completely futile exercise to have this discussion. This is covert intelligence activities dude, people don’t advertise about it on CNN. It is meant to be low-profile. What do you expect? The director of RAW to come on live national TV and brag about how helped set up bomb blasts in Pakistan? I thought you were simply mis-informed before, now I see you’re being deliberately obtuse. Its clear that you dont even get the 'ABCs' of counter insurgency, i just wasted 30 mins of my time trying to educate you..

[bharathh]

Covert operations is not subversive activities. Subversive activities would be training people to go attack your target - or assassinating leaders, inciting violence etc. To be caught doing something along the lines of this can be considered an act of war. Many ISI operatives have been caught or implicated in doing the following against India... eg. David Headley. Please tell me one Indian agent who has been caught doing so. You specifically mentioned Balochistan. Where has any bomb attack, or attack on Pakistani soldiers or civilians been attributed to our agencies? Let's take bomb blasts as an example. According to this website here http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/Balochistan/data/blast.html, there have been 45 blasts in Balochistan alone since the beginning of the year to the beginning of June. Not one Indian agent or agency has been implicated in any of these. I don't know how many attacks on soldiers have occurred, but I can bet you not one agent or agency has been implicated. You are telling me that for the past n number of years, our agency is so amazing and the Pakistanis so inept that not one agent/agency has been implicated? Maybe they are not involved in subversive activities as India has seen that these kind of things come and bite your hard in the ass like the US and Pak are finding out? Covert operations have more to do with intelligence gathering and analysis. I agree that the primary purpose of our intel agencies is to do so. Agents may have been caught doing this.

[seedhi]

What? Are you even serious? How about I massage your legs in the meantime as well? Dude, who do you think I am? Some sort of senior intelligence dude with clearance to classified info? I can only give you pointers, if you cannot understand even now, it’s a completely futile exercise to have this discussion. This is covert intelligence activities dude, people don’t advertise about it on CNN. It is meant to be low-profile. What do you expect? The director of RAW to come on live national TV and brag about how helped set up bomb blasts in Pakistan? I thought you were simply mis-informed before, now I see you’re being deliberately obtuse. Its clear that you dont even get the 'ABCs' of counter insurgency, i just wasted 30 mins of my time trying to educate you..

There is a difference between counter insurgency/covert intelligence and sending armed men across the border to inflict significant civilian casualties which is what pakistan has been doing for 20 years. Moreover, it might seem unimportant to you but it is a fact that there is very little evidence of RAWs activities inside pakistan, therefore on available evidence it is infeasible to equate RAW with the ISI. As far as I have read there was a small period in the latter half of 1970s when RAW supported the Balochistan movement. Then there was a short period of targeted action by RAW to eliminate the Sikh separatists in the late 1980s. Perhaps there was some support to the Mohajir parties in the 1990s. I have not heard of RAW deliberately targeting civilians or setting of bombs in markets like the ISI has done through its proxies ranging from LeT, JeM and Hizbul. I personally find it astounding that based on limited evidence/knowledge you are trying to indirectly justify the ISI sponsored, civilian targeted, jehadi terrorism perpetrated by pakistan. There is no record of India having sent tens of thousands of insurgents across the border into pakistan, like what has been done by the latter in Kashmir. Nor have we bombed their stock exchanges, hotels, trains, airports, Parliament, markets, stations, mosques, hospitals, colleges, restaurants, stadiums etc. I sincerely hope that you dont believe the Zaid Hamidesque propaganda that RAW is involved in propping up the Taliban.

[Ram]

There is a difference between counter insurgency/covert intelligence and sending armed men across the border to inflict significant civilian casualties which is what pakistan has been doing for 20 years. Moreover, it might seem unimportant to you but it is a fact that there is very little evidence of RAWs activities inside pakistan, therefore on available evidence it is infeasible to equate RAW with the ISI. As far as I have read there was a small period in the latter half of 1970s when RAW supported the Balochistan movement. Then there was a short period of targeted action by RAW to eliminate the Sikh separatists in the late 1980s. Perhaps there was some support to the Mohajir parties in the 1990s. I have not heard of RAW deliberately targeting civilians or setting of bombs in markets like the ISI has done through its proxies ranging from LeT, JeM and Hizbul. I personally find it astounding that based on limited evidence/knowledge you are trying to indirectly justify the ISI sponsored, civilian targeted, jehadi terrorism perpetrated by pakistan. There is no record of India having sent tens of thousands of insurgents across the border into pakistan, like what has been done by the latter in Kashmir. Nor have we bombed their stock exchanges, hotels, trains, airports, Parliament, markets, stations, mosques, hospitals, colleges, restaurants, stadiums etc. I sincerely hope that you dont believe the Zaid Hamidesque propaganda that RAW is involved in propping up the Taliban.

Almost everything that you claim is my position on this issue, including my fictitious justification for the ‘the ISI sponsored, civilian targeted, jehadi terrorism perpetrated by pakistan’ (Huh what, where did that come from?) or my apparent ‘equation of RAW and ISI’ is 100% FALSE. So I am not even going to bother replying to the specifics of your post. Do me a favor and stop making stuff up. I didn’t know intellectual dishonesty and blatant mischaracterization is par for the course among the right-wing brigade here.

[seedhi]

Almost everything that you claim is my position on this issue' date=' including my fictitious justification for the ‘the ISI sponsored, civilian targeted, jehadi terrorism perpetrated by pakistan’ (Huh what, where did that come from?) or my apparent ‘equation of RAW and ISI’ is [b']100% FALSE. So I am not even going to bother replying to the specifics of your post. Do me a favor and stop making stuff up. I didn’t know intellectual dishonesty and blatant mischaracterization is par for the course among the right-wing brigade here.

You said that India had a long and documented history of supporting renegade movements in pakistan including the Balochistan movement. Well, first of all there is no documentation ofcourse, and from what has been speculated it was for a short period in late 1970s that India might have supported BLA. Over and above all this is the fact that pakistan has not even a shred of evidence to show for its claims of RAW supporting insurgencies in pakistan. The very fact that you have made these claims about RAW in an unrelated thread indicates the tendency to equate it with the activities of the ISI. You have unfortunately bought into the regular pakistani talking points they use to justify the activities of ISI/LeT etc.

[asterix]

Huh' date=' you completely lost me there mate. I don’t even know where to start, but line after line of your post is blatant mis-characterization of my position. Where did I the RAW’s involvement in Pakistan has made the situation ‘worse’? The other dude (bharath) says our intelligence agencies never took part in any covert activities in Pakistan (specifically Balochistan). I was simply responding to him and said that was patently false and our agencies have a long history of subversive activities against Pakistan interests not just in Pakistani mainland, but outside Pakistan as well.[/quote'] I don't know why the discussion came to India and RAW and subversive activities in Pakistan. This topic is about Pakistan being a FAILED state. We are supposed to analyse why it's a failed state. We are not supposed to analyse why it's India's fault that Pakistan is a FAILED state? We also cannot help them because they themselves can't take our 'help' in any matter as that'll be percieved as 'bowing down' to India. Unless they ditch the official policy of animosity against India, nobody can help them. Also the country is not Governed by one authority. There are multiple authorities which influence their policies. Because of the lack of clarity of whom in control, we as a neighbour can't help them to come out abject state failure. Our Intelligence agencies might be involved in certain activities in and out of Pakistan to SAVE OUR INTERESTS and to COUNTER THEIR ACTIVITIES AGAINST US. Every country does it and this cannot be blamed as the reason of FAILURE OF ANY STATE. We certainly want a better Pakistan in our neighbour, but they themselves have to find a way out of their mess (by policy change, changing mindsets, whatever).. In the mean time we are not going to sulk if they are declared as a FAILED STATE. If you want to sulk, please carry on. Please don't ask others to sulk. No need to blame British for the current situation (as mentioned in your first post). If Britishers had not done it, Pakis themselves had done it later. Good riddance.

[someone]

I really do not understand how much we critical of Pakistan. For a fact, I am certain India is not very far from Pakistan in terms of failed state. There is still a fear among people when going outside. Particular at night so we are very different from Pakistan from safety point of view

[CSK Fan]

I really do not understand how much we critical of Pakistan. For a fact, I am certain India is not very far from Pakistan in terms of failed state. There is still a fear among people when going outside. Particular at night so we are very different from Pakistan from safety point of view

On the contrary, India has been identified as a rising super power by everyone. You have more chances of being robbed and killed at night in US/UK, if you go out

[someone]

On the contrary' date=' India has been identified as a rising super power by everyone. You have more chances of being robbed and killed at night in US/UK, if you go out[/quote'] There is no denying that, but every indian knows also the old problems are still there and there is a great threat of terrorism anywhere crowded