What should be the playing combination of Indian XI on subcontinental featherbeds?

[Lord]

I agree with 3+1 combo,our second spinner is not that great anyways. however,no way can play 6 bats which includes Dhoni

[zen]

Considering that Irfan is out due to injury playing him against OZ is out of question. From the general opinion here, if Mohali's pitch isn't a rank turner, then the 11 below should be good: - Sehwag - Gambhir - Dravid - Tendulkar - Laxman - Raina - Dhoni - Spinner - Zak - Ishant / Munaf - Sree

[Lord]

Considering that Irfan is out due to injury playing him against OZ is out of question. From the general opinion here, if Mohali's pitch isn't a rank turner, then the 11 below should be good: - Sehwag - Gambhir - Dravid - Tendulkar - Laxman - Raina - Dhoni - Spinner - Zak - Ishant / Munaf - Sree

only if all 3 Zak,Sree,Ishant r fit.I dont want Munaf there.Mithun or even PK can be handy

[zen]

PS Bhajji will be the spinner. But I feel that someone like Mishy could be useful as he can deliver 3-4 wkts taking balls to turn the game, so how do we accomodate someone like him w/o disturbing the 3 seamers attack? So in the absense of Irfan (or a bowling allrounder), we are back to evaluating the usefulness of Raina (50-60 runs) vs usefulness of Mishy (3-4 wkt taking balls). Also you have to see, how someone like Raina (or Yuvi for that matter) would fare against the OZ pace attack.

[Lord]

PS Bhajji will be the spinner. But I feel that someone like Mishy could be useful as he can deliver 3-4 wkts taking balls to turn the game, so how do we accomodate someone like him w/o disturbing the 3 seamers attack? So in the absense of Irfan (or a bowling allrounder), we are back to evaluating the usefulness of Raina (50-60 runs) vs usefulness of Mishy (3-4 wkt taking balls). Also you have to see, how someone like Raina (or Yuvi for that matter) would fare against the OZ pace attack.

dont think Mishy will play even if we play 2 seamers,Ojha will likely get the nod ahead of him. hes crap nyway.4-150 wont be any good. Raina will be fine.its the Indian pitches,so bounce shouldnt be a problem.n he plays spin well. as for UV I expect him to be axed from the squad,let alone the XI.Hopefully Kohli will be picked

[zen]

For some reason, I am not too confident about LF spinners in tests. I know people could point at Bedi but over the years, the LFS hasn't impressed me apart from a few exception here and there (like Harris against Ind in SA) .... A leggie on the other hand is like a lottery, he could go for runs or pick up a bagful of wkts. I would be more inclinded to gamble on an erratic leggie than a steady LFS.

[saneindian]

For some reason' date=' I am not too confident about LF spinners in tests. I know people could point at Bedi but over the years, the LFS hasn't impressed me apart from a few exception here and there (like Harris against Ind in SA) .... A leggie on the other hand is like a lottery, he could go for runs or pick up a bagful of wkts. I would be more inclinded to gamble on an erratic leggie than a steady LFS.[/quote'] The only leggie we have right now is Mishra who is fat, unfit, completely out of sorts and is bloating by the day. I saw him at a Delhi restaurant recently, the guy looks like a shot putter and is not too far from being another Romesh Powar. One would have expected these unfit players to report to NCA after the test series, but looks like he has been gobbling too many parathas. As a guesstimate, I would say he must have put on at least 10-12 kgs since his debut vs Aussues on the last tour about 24 months ago.

[zen]

The only leggie we have right now is Mishra who is fat, unfit, completely out of sorts and is bloating by the day. I saw him at a Delhi restaurant recently, the guy looks like a shot putter and is not too far from being another Romesh Powar. One would have expected these unfit players to report to NCA after the test series, but looks like he has been gobbling too many parathas. As a guesstimate, I would say he must have put on at least 10-12 kgs since his debut vs Aussues on the last tour about 24 months ago.

Ranatunga, Inzi, Boon, etc must be his inspirational figures :P

[saneindian]

Ranatunga' date=' Inzi, Boon, etc must be his inspirational figures :P[/quote'] Did any of them bowl leg spin :--D

[Ram]

There’s a reason why we rarely play 3 seamers at home in tests and that’s because the kinds of roles our seamers have played in wins at home over the last 18-24 months, does not require that we play 3 seamers. Our seamers’ most important contribution in home victories in the last 2 years have come in either one of the two forms; a) Masterful exploitation of reverse swing (eg; Australia, in 2008) b) Making use of the moisture in the first session of the day (eg; Sreesanth, against Lanka in 2009) That gives our seamers a very narrow window of time during which they can make a winning difference to the game at home. You cannot pick ¾ of your attack, based on a strategy that might prove effective, at best, only during one half of a days’ play. And that is assuming the ball reverse swings. If there is no reverse swing, the only time our seamers look anywhere threatening is during the early part of the day when there’s moisture on the surface and help in air (and by and large, even this holds true mostly during winter months of October, November and December) On the flip-side, if the ball does not reverse swing (and much like the English weather, reverse swing in india can be quite fickle and there’s no guarantee it will be there), then playing 3 seamers on pitches that are by and large getting slower and lower by the decade will be a recipe for disaster . Opposition batsmen will know that once they negotiate the first hour, they can milk our fast bowlers for runs like as though all of them were hybrid cows for a significant portion of the day. And this is when our spinners come into their own. On occasions when there is hardly anything in the pitch for the bowlers, our spinners do an excellent job of bowling 55-60 overs/day, keeping things in a leash, even if wickets are hard to come by. On occasions when there is mild assistance from the pitch and opposition batsmen mediocre, they also run through the opposition (Mishra against Australia, Bhajji against South Africa). You cannot hope to get 50-55 overs/day from spinners, if you play only one specialist spinner. For this reason alone, the team will never risk going in with just one spinner, even though our spin bowling returns at home off late have not been as prolific as they used to be. In essence, our pacers are very extremely good at making sharp dents into the opposition when conditions are ripe. And even though those hits are generally not fatal, the wounds are just wide enough for our spinners to get inside and spread like an infection and ultimately kill the opposition. So even without us realizing it, our spinners and pacers have formed a winning mantra at home, where one’s role is complimentary to the other. Playing 3 seamers will upset that delicate balance. And to just to finish, the performance of someone like a Zaheer Khan can create an illusion of effectiveness for pacers at home. That man is an zen master in subcontinental conditions who can make the ball sing even as the other pacers struggle to make it talk. Its easy to be swayed by his performance and think ‘It might be a good idea to play 3 seamers at home..’ But peel beyond the surface and you will find that our fast bowling prowess is still temperamental and unpredictable. Ishant has had his highs and lows and there’s no saying which Sreesanth will turn up for the day’s play – Sreesanth A who can flummox opposition batsmen with some excellent swing bowling or Sreesanth B, who sprays the ball far and wide and soon turns into the 12th man for the opposition.

[zen]

Did any of them bowl leg spin :--D

Is weight a criteria for selection :grin: .... Btw, Warne did :P

[zen]

There’s a reason why we rarely play 3 seamers at home in tests and that’s because the kinds of roles our seamers have played in wins at home over the last 18-24 months, does not require that we play 3 seamers. Our seamers’ most important contribution in home victories in the last 2 years have come in either one of the two forms; a) Masterful exploitation of reverse swing (eg; Australia, in 2008) b) Making use of the moisture in the first session of the day (eg; Sreesanth, against Lanka in 2009) That gives our seamers a very narrow window of time during which they can make a winning difference to the game at home. You cannot pick ¾ of your attack, based on a strategy that might prove effective, at best, only during one half of a days’ play. And that is assuming the ball reverse swings. If there is no reverse swing, the only time our seamers look anywhere threatening is during the early part of the day when there’s moisture on the surface and help in air (and by and large, even this holds true mostly during winter months of October, November and December) On the flip-side, if the ball does not reverse swing (and much like the English weather, reverse swing in india can be quite fickle and there’s no guarantee it will be there), then playing 3 seamers on pitches that are by and large getting slower and lower by the decade will be a recipe for disaster . Opposition batsmen will know that once they negotiate the first hour, they can milk our fast bowlers for runs like as though all of them were hybrid cows for a significant portion of the day. And this is when our spinners come into their own. On occasions when there is hardly anything in the pitch for the bowlers, our spinners do an excellent job of bowling 55-60 overs/day, keeping things in a leash, even if wickets are hard to come by. On occasions when there is mild assistance from the pitch and opposition batsmen mediocre, they also run through the opposition (Mishra against Australia, Bhajji against South Africa). You cannot hope to get 50-55 overs/day from spinners, if you play only one specialist spinner. For this reason alone, the team will never risk going in with just one spinner, even though our spin bowling returns at home off late have not been as prolific as they used to be. In essence, our pacers are very extremely good at making sharp dents into the opposition when conditions are ripe. And even though those hits are generally not fatal, the wounds are just wide enough for our spinners to get inside and spread like an infection and ultimately kill the opposition. So even without us realizing it, our spinners and pacers have formed a winning mantra at home, where one’s role is complimentary to the other. Playing 3 seamers will upset that delicate balance. And to just to finish, the performance of someone like a Zaheer Khan can create an illusion of effectiveness for pacers at home. That man is an zen master in subcontinental conditions who can make the ball sing even as the other pacers struggle to make it talk. Its easy to be swayed by his performance and think ‘It might be a good idea to play 3 seamers at home..’ But peel beyond the surface and you will find that our fast bowling prowess is still temperamental and unpredictable. Ishant has had his highs and lows and there’s no saying which Sreesanth will turn up for the day’s play – Sreesanth A who can flummox opposition batsmen with some excellent swing bowling or Sreesanth B, who sprays the ball far and wide and soon turns into the 12th man for the opposition.

I skimmed through your post so I am sorry if I missed something but this is what you should know: 1. Test cricket is in a way about making the most of the conditions so you have to make the most of suitable conditions. If your point is that why pick 3 seamers as they can only be successful during a particular window but the point is to do exactly that, i.e. make the most out of those windows. There is no point in bowling a spinner from over #12-13 and let the opportunities go by. There is a reason why they say "make the new ball count". We have to make the first session and the last hour of the day count. 2. Our spinners depend a lot on the help from the pitch. When there is nothing in it they resort to bowling restrictive lines (which you think as coming on to their own) and something that we see on day 1 and day 2. This happens because we couldn't capitalize during the 'window' because our seamers couldn't be rotated properly 3. For the 2+2 combo to complement each other, Ind usually have to hope to bat first against good sides 4. So we have to take Zak performance as an exception and take spinners' like Bhajji as a rule Stats of Indian bowlers over the last two years when Ind is fielding first: link PS and when it is batting first: link

[thevortex]

This theory of Sehwag and Yuvraj being used in a pinch is all well and good. If the track is turning. If not, they are just fodder. I do have respect for Sehwag as a bowler - for his skill. But he cannot be considered a specialist bowler. And we cannot tire him out with bowling when he has got perhaps the most important batting slot for India. The whole problem lies with our spinners being pressed into action after about 10 overs of play on the first day of a Test match!!! That is unacceptable. We just do not have the pitches to do that.

[Ultimate_Game]

I would have a strong batting lineup with 7 batsmen and 4 bowlers (3 fast and one spin) with part-timers such as Sehwag/Yvraj/Raina bowling the remaining 10 overs. For us 7 batsmen formula generally works - remember 2003 world cup with Dravid keeping wickets to add depth to the lineup which paid rich dividends. I would go with the following team with players in parentheses as possible options/replacements for the particular spot. This way I am selecting around 20 players and this squad can be termed to 16. By the way in my squad Uthappa is a wicket-keeper batsman as a replacement for Dhoni in case of injury to Dhoni else he can come in at 7 and hammer the bowling the way he did in IPL. - Sehwag - Tendulkar - Gambhir - Yuvraj - Dhoni - Raina - Rohit Sharma (Robin Uthappa/Kohli/Irfan Pathan) - Harbhajan (R Ashwin/Ojha/Murali Kartik) - Praveen Kumar - Zaheer - Nehra (Munaf/Sreesanth)

[zen]

Right now, if I look at the Indian combination playing in the sub-continent on pitches that are not rank turners, I have to hope that we bat first. For the number one ranked side, winning the toss and batting first shouldn't be the prime consideration. Our goal should be to have a side that is confident enough to do well whether its bowling or batting first. I see a lot of people(including some of the players) get disheartned as soon as we have to bowl first. This comes from our unshakable faith in our spinners to win us the games. That faith was probably justified in the past but at the moment, I don't think Ind has the best spin attack in the world. Neither is our spin attack significantly better than our seamers. I like it, if the team hopes for the best (batting first) but also prepares for the worst (bowling first). And from what I gather, we pick our team hoping for the best when you should have a team that is prepared for everything that's thrown at it. If I am the captain, then I don't want either me or others in the team to be worried about what happens at the toss. If I win the toss then I carry out my plans, if not then I still carry out my plans (or wreck the opposition's). If I am bowling first, I am looking to knock around 3 wkts in session one, and around the same in the final session. I want to end the first day with 7-8 opposition's wkts. How do I go about executing this plan? Do I pick two spinners, who aren't that good to pick wks up on day 1 type of conditions (in fact very few spinners can be good on the first day so I wouldn't blame them). Do I introduce spin around 13 over mark, when the pacers should be trying to make the most of session one? You also want the pacers to give their best so you don't want to tire them out so you have to rotate them. And then what does the helpless spinners do? They resort to bowling restrictive line and lengths, which is what the other team wants, i.e. lay a foundation w/o losing a lot of wkts on day 1. If it is a rank turner, play 2 or may be 3 spinners! No one is going to stop you from doing that.

[Ram]

I skimmed through your post so I am sorry if I missed something but this is what you should know: Test cricket is in a way about making the most of the conditions so you have to make the most of suitable conditions. If your point is that why pick 3 seamers as they can only be successful during a particular window but the point is to do exactly that, i.e. make the most out of those windows. There is no point in bowling a spinner from over #12-13 and let the opportunities go by. There is a reason why they say "make the new ball count". We have to make the first session and the last hour of the day count.

And I am saying that there’s no guarantee that the conditions that you think the pacers will thrive in – swing with the new ball and reverse swing with the old one - may not exist at all. I am not going to go to the usual ‘stats without context route’ where we get to argue over stats that are so high level that no one is really none the wiser about anything. I don’t know about you, but I have watched almost all of our test matches at home in the last 2 years and I know that if we pick 3 seamers on absolute flatbeds that offer no hope whatsoever, then it will a hiding unto nothing for our bowlers.

Our spinners depend a lot on the help from the pitch. When there is nothing in it they resort to bowling restrictive lines (which you think as coming on to their own) and something that we see on day 1 and day 2. This happens because we couldn't capitalize during the 'window' because our seamers couldn't be rotated properly

That’s just not true. You look at Amit Mishra’s 5 wicktet haul against Australia in 2008, or Bhajji’s performance against South Africa in 2010 and you’ll know that those were very good batting tracks. Since the retirement of Kumble, our spinners have gotten a lot of stick at home for not running through the opposition like we used to, but we shouldn’t forget that, thanks to ICC’s fear mongering tactics, our pitches are nowhere near spin-friendly as they used to be. Even then, our spinner have helped us win some important matches. And that is not to say our pacers receive a lot of help from the pitches either. But as I mentioned earlier, when there is assistance they have been excellent in short bursts, providing us the crucial breakthroughs. Of course, there have been times as well when our pacers have done little of note as well, but I wouldn’t blame them at all. The conditions for test cricket at home are as batting friendly as it can get, these days.

[zen]

And I am saying that there’s no guarantee that the conditions that you think the pacers will thrive in – swing with the new ball and reverse swing with the old one - may not exist at all. I am not going to go to the usual ‘stats without context route’ where we get to argue over stats that are so high level that no one is really none the wiser about anything. I don’t know about you, but I have watched almost all of our test matches at home in the last 2 years and I know that if we pick 3 seamers on absolute flatbeds that offer no hope whatsoever, then it will a hiding unto nothing for our bowlers. That’s just not true. You look at Amit Mishra’s 5 wicktet haul against Australia in 2008, or Bhajji’s performance against South Africa in 2010 and you’ll know that those were very good batting tracks. Since the retirement of Kumble, our spinners have gotten a lot of stick at home for not running through the opposition like we used to, but we shouldn’t forget that, thanks to ICC’s fear mongering tactics, our pitches are nowhere near spin-friendly as they used to be. Even then, our spinner have helped us win some important matches. And that is not to say our pacers receive a lot of help from the pitches either. But as I mentioned earlier, when there is assistance they have been excellent in short bursts, providing us the crucial breakthroughs. Of course, there have been times as well when our pacers have done little of note as well, but I wouldn’t blame them at all. The conditions for test cricket at home are as batting friendly as it can get, these days.

There is nothing much to comment on rest of your post as you are entitled to an opinion but you can't say that only Bhajji performed well against SA. Zak and Ishant did well too. Moreover the spinners were helped because they were bowling on day 4 and day 5. It was Zak, who set us up nicely on Day 1 but we couldn't follow up as we didn't have a back up seamer. And if you see most of Bhajji's wkts came in the last session, something that happens at the Eden gardens So a bad example to show your point. I don't recall much about 2008 (will have to refresh my memory) so won't comment on that yet. But yeah, that's what you play a leggie for, i.e. to bowl some wkt takling balls.

[zen]

if we go back to the test played at Nagpur in the same series against SA in 2010: SA first inning: Fall of wickets1-5 (Prince, 4.3 ov), 2-6 (Smith, 6.3 ov), 3-346 (Kallis, 113.2 ov), 4-454 (de Villiers, 141.1 ov), 5-476 (Duminy, 151.5 ov), 6-554 (Boucher, 174.2 ov) Probably shows how we missed the 3rd seamer. What was shocking is that Saha was picked as a batsman there rather than picking a bowler instead (a couple of batsmen got injured iirc).

[Ram]

There is nothing much to comment on rest of your post as you are entitled to an opinion but you can't say that only Bhajji performed well against SA.

And where did I say that? Follow the logic trail and see for yourself if that is what I implied; Your post;

Our spinners depend a lot on the help from the pitch. When there is nothing in it they resort to bowling restrictive lines (which you think as coming on to their own) and something that we see on day 1 and day 2. This happens because we couldn't capitalize during the 'window' because our seamers couldn't be rotated properly

My response;

That’s just not true. You look at Amit Mishra’s 5 wicktet haul against Australia in 2008,or Bhajji’s performance against South Africa in 2010 and you’ll know that those were very good batting tracks.

Your response to that post;

you can't say that only Bhajji performed well against SA.

??? I never even remotely implied that ONLY BHAJJI did well against South Africa. You said our spinners thrive only when there’s help from the pitch and that is simply not true at all. In fact you hardly classify any of our recent pitches at home as being overtly spin-friendly. The last time such a thing happened, it was in the 3rd test in Chennai(?) in 2008 against South Africa. We were 0-1 down in the series and there was a pressing need to prepare a spin friendly track for the final test. And a spin friendly track is what we got, in addition to loads of criticism from the South African camp for preparing what seemed like a deliberately under-cooked pitch. At least, its good that you’re conceding that you need to refresh your memory on previous test series, rather than just go by stats. If you do, you’ll find out that despite inceasingly batting friendly conditions, our spinners have done a reasonable job at home in test matches, ably supported by our pacers who have extended a helping hand whenever the conditions allowed them to do so.

[Ram]

if we go back to the test played at Nagpur in the same series against SA in 2010: SA first inning: Fall of wickets1-5 (Prince, 4.3 ov), 2-6 (Smith, 6.3 ov), 3-346 (Kallis, 113.2 ov), 4-454 (de Villiers, 141.1 ov), 5-476 (Duminy, 151.5 ov), 6-554 (Boucher, 174.2 ov) Probably shows how we missed the 3rd seamer. What was shocking is that Saha was picked as a batsman there rather than picking a bowler instead (a couple of batsmen got injured iirc).

I don’t know how you could possibly look at that those fall of wickets and make an automatic implication that things went wrong because we did not have a 3rd seamer. That is an incredibly specific implication obtained from a stat set that is very fuzzy. I am sorry, but this is just a classic case or you picking and choosing stats that you think, supports your case for a 3rd seamer in our test side in home conditions. It’s a bit like a judge already giving his verdict and then going around looking for evidence supporting his case.