Is Tendulkar the second best batsman of all time?

[Ram]

As usual..you write alot. But it has little or no substance and absolutely no logic. The " logic " of the Wisden 100 ratings that you have portrayed is as clumsy as it can get. Not all knocks there are by great batsmen..but if you are an " all time great" ..let alone " 2nd best of all time" and played a record games without having a single knock there. it must mean something. Did I confuse you ?:cantstop:

The only thing that it means is that you're one hapless dude who cannot think straight because you missed your medication the previous night. Keep going though, this is great entertainment for the rest of us. It like watching a clown act in a circus for free. :cantstop:

[patriot]

It is obvious that Sachin fails miserably in criteria 6,7,8,9 . He has had many chances - that is for sure. http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2001/jul/30select.htm The rating criteria: The Selection Criteria Test Rating for Batting - A detailed note on the calculations 1. Batting Base points The Batting Base points are given for Runs scored. This Index is given a weightage of around 30%. Brian Lara, for his 375, gets the highest Index value. 2. Pitch Index Rhis index is determined based on the Runs scored in a match and number of wickets, which have fallen. Normalizing is done to take care of wide variations. Additional normalization is done to reflect the pre-WW1 situation with uncovered pitches. 3. Bowling Quality Index The Bowling Quality Index is based on the quality of bowlers who have bowled in the innings. A minimum of 4 and a maximum of 5 bowlers are taken for determining this Index value. Care is taken that the fifth bowler (e-g, Richards) does not lower the Index determination adversely. 4. Percentage of Score Index This reflects the % of team runs scored by the batsman. Surprisingly, Bannerman's 166 in the first test ever is still the highest % score in a completed innings. 5. Point of Entry Index This index reflects the entry point and distinguishes between 5 for 1, 27 for 2, 35 for 3 etc. For the first innings of the test, the index is absolute. For the other three innings, the Index is linked to a target score, exact for the last innings and national for the other two. 6. After point of Entry Index This index reflects the difference between entering at, say, 10 for 2 with a third wicket partnership of 100 and entering at 10 for 2 and the score going down to 20 for ¾. 7. Wkts falling while at crease Index This index reflect the number of wickets seen through by the batsman. An opening batsman, carrying his bat through, gets the highest value. 8. Support Index This reflects the support received by the batsman while he played his innings. 9. Shepherding of Tail enders Index This index is based on the way the batsman has nursed the 8-11 batsmen and built partnerships. The highest value is given for a batsman who has been involved in 4 signigicant partnerships. 10. Highest score Index This is the lowest rated parameter and is given to the innings if the same is the highest for the team. 11. Match Status Index This is complex index, which reflects the status of the match. The highest value is given to a successful and close fourth innings chase (Lara's 153*) or a great match-winning innings after a follow-on (Laxman's 281). 12. Result contribution Index. This index is based on the sum of the 11 index values and reflects the value of the players contribution, through the considered innings, to the match result. The match should be a win (x points) or a draw (0.3x points) for this index value to be allocated. Additional weightage is given for away wins. In addition, the Index values, which are calculated, are downsized proportionately if the innings is less than 100.

[Bumper]

Bumper, Very well said. I agree with most of what you mention. He has had an absolute dream 2-3 years which have helped team India a great deal. His commitment to the team cause and hunger to keep piling on the runs was never in doubt. But, I think he gets alot more credit than he deserves where as other silent performers just keep doing their job. Who would disagree with me that VVS's knock of 72 in Mohali was as much or more precious than Tendulkar's 200 in Bangalore ? Or that Zakky's 12 wickets was the MVP of the series ? But SRT's performance will get most of the credit. I bet you had SRT played the knock VVS played in Mohali - we would not hear the end of it for god knows how many years. Australia was a well and truely demoralized bunch after that Mohali game - which was a victory from an absolute lost cause for India in the 4th innings. For someone who has played a record 171 games - I wish SRT could for once rescue us from dire straits to a victory. His collegues in Team India itself have done it multilple times, let alone greats from other teams. Such a knock would define his legacy. He always seems to need copious amounts of help from the other end else he throws it away under pressure - I have seen it countless times. For once I would like to see him win India a game with little or no support from the top order. He has had lots of chances, thats for sure.

Sports is such a subject. Sportsmen take us through emotional rollercoasters during the game. We simply forget about our work, family and other commitments & watch in awe, sportsmen perform. As a result sportsmen will never be credited or slammed rationally. The criticism and the appreciation will always be disproportionate to their efforts - more so when the stature of the player in question is as high as SRT's. As for SRT getting more adulation than VVS, this is how it works in all sports. Several players shoot clutch jumpers to win NBA games. But when Jordan or Kobe does it, it will get 10 times more coverage. There are many on this board who call Sachin a god. Some like you call him a chokemeister. I think both these views are polarising. In reality, Sachin is neither of these. He is a brilliant batsman, but has many many flaws. Every one knows this. Depending on what they want to believe, people take one polarising view or the other.

[patriot]

The only thing that it means is that you're one hapless dude who cannot think straight because you missed your medication the previous night. Keep going though, this is great entertainment for the rest of us. It like watching a clown act in a circus for free. :cantstop:

Put up with facts and expose his IQ that is not even fit for a mouse ..and the maris mania gets personal. :cantstop:

[Ram]

Put up with facts and expose his IQ that is not even fit for a mouse ..and the maris mania gets personal. :cantstop:

See now your sentences dont even make sense. Steady there buddy, steady.. :winky:

[patriot]

Sports is such a subject. Sportsmen take us through emotional rollercoasters during the game. We simply forget about our work, family and other commitments & watch in awe, sportsmen perform. As a result sportsmen will never be credited or slammed rationally. The criticism and the appreciation will always be disproportionate to their efforts - more so when the stature of the player in question is as high as SRT's. As for SRT getting more adulation than VVS, this is how it works in all sports. Several players shoot clutch jumpers to win NBA games. But when Jordan or Kobe does it, it will get 10 times more coverage. There are many on this board who call Sachin a god. Some like you call him a chokemeister. I think both these views are polarising. In reality, Sachin is neither of these. He is a brilliant batsman, but has many many flaws. Every one knows this. Depending on what they want to believe, people take one polarising view or the other.

Yeah Bumps. I agree. But the double standards of these blinded fans are beyond any logic. ICC ratings will mean everything when we are No.1 but will mean nothing when for only 4 odd years of his international career of 21 years he has actually been at the top of the rankings. Can't imagine any other more hyped up sportsman. Sampras dominated the rankings for donkeys years as has Federer. Kasparov is an all time great in chess because he ruled No.1 spot for 20 fricking years. These are just few examples. Ofcourse such logic is of no use infront of delusional SRT fans.

[Raghav_12]

You missed the entire point pj ... see the thing is this team still gets into "dire straits" as soon as he gets out ... reasons are obvious ... so as long as he is out there in the middle it means that there was never a "dire" situation in the first place ... Case in point just the last match at B'luru ... he made a mountain of runs before getting out and the rest of the chokers promptly followed him at the rate of 1 wkt for 2 runs ... The blame for choking though is squarely on Baasu wonly ... he escaped any scathing criticism because we managed to win easily in the end ... so long story short you are never going to s win this argument ... because patriot likes players who fire a rocket up their butts and then sit and admire how they jump in a pond extinguishing it without getting drowned ... thats his definition of a "match winner". BTW suppose RD,Raina and Dhoni had gotten out soon after Pujara and SRT had made the same amount of runs to see us thru the finish line but with only 2 wkts to spare ( the lesser the better ) ... it would have been more match winning knock. So the next time Baasu is in this situation he should just run-out Jammy and his inngs would be that much more "match winningesque" ... Try working that one out .

Yeah.. Boss bhai you sum up whole situation pretty well. Over the years, India was considered in "dire straits" only if Sachin was out, so no way he could have come and rescued India from dire straits. People love to romanticize close finishes and elevate those protagonists to legendary statuses. Otherwise how come Sachin's Bangalore knock was less important than Laxman's Mohali one? Before he came to crease, 2 wickets had fallen for some 30 runs and after he left crease 5 wickets fell for some 10 runs. Doesn't this make people understand importance of Sachin's knock ? If helping team in close finishes is only criteria for being a great bat, than let's declare Monty Panesar better bat than RD (just an example). After all what he did in Cardiff '09, RD has never done in around 140 test matches.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Raghav_12]

Yeah Bumps. I agree. But the double standards of these blinded fans are beyond any logic. Can't imagine any other more hyped up sportsman. Sampras dominated the rankings for donkeys years as has Federer. Kasparov is an all time great in chess because he ruled No.1 spot for 20 fricking years. These are just few examples. Ofcourse such logic is of no use infront of delusional SRT fans.

:omg: You dumb or what? Comparing a team sport with individual ones? Who told you that Kasparov was ruling no 1 spot for 20 years? He became world champion in 85 and after 95 everything was hazy in world of Chess. Not to say Sachin has been as great in Cricket as Kasparov to Chess, but you have to compare comparables. Tell me one individual who has been so dominating in Cricket or Soccer (may be other than Bradman, but that time we had some 25-30 only individuals playing serious international cricket)

[yoda]

Well in team sport there was a guy named Michael Jordan who was the scoring champion (highest in points/game for the season) in NBA basketball 10 out of the 12 or 13 years he played the game and dominated the sport like no one else ever has. He also won 6 championships including 2 3-peats. Yes he needed good team mates to help with the championship runs, but in terms of scoring average, he would have probably done it with 4 other high school players with him. How is this relevant to the discussion in this thread, you may ask. I have no idea. :--D

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[EnterTheVoid]

Bumper, Very well said. I agree with most of what you mention. He has had an absolute dream 2-3 years which have helped team India a great deal. His commitment to the team cause and hunger to keep piling on the runs was never in doubt. But, I think he gets alot more credit than he deserves where as other silent performers just keep doing their job. Who would disagree with me that VVS's knock of 72 in Mohali was as much or more precious than Tendulkar's 200 in Bangalore ? Or that Zakky's 12 wickets was the MVP of the series ? But SRT's performance will get most of the credit. I bet you had SRT played the knock VVS played in Mohali - we would not hear the end of it for god knows how many years. Australia was a well and truely demoralized bunch after that Mohali game - which was a victory from an absolute lost cause for India in the 4th innings. For someone who has played a record 171 games - I wish SRT could for once rescue us from dire straits to a victory. His collegues in Team India itself have done it multilple times, let alone greats from other teams. Such a knock would define his legacy. He always seems to need copious amounts of help from the other end else he throws it away under pressure - I have seen it countless times. For once I would like to see him win India a game with little or no support from the top order. He has had lots of chances, thats for sure.

Re the first bolded part, thats actually a very good point, I agree with this. You're angry that other players in the team are not given the credit they deserve, overshadowed in the praises SRT recieves ? If I understand your POV correctly, you want SRT to play an innings like the one Lara played in 4th innings against Australia (the 153*) ?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Zero_Unit]

Surely not 2nd best. Only the BEST!

[CSK Fan]

Patriot answer this if you have one honest bone in your body 1) Why dont you ever criticise Dravid's slow scoring or failures in finishing things up? He has only been not out once in his career in 4th innings. What about strike rates making all the difference? 2) Why don't you criticise Sehwag not finishing the job he started? You claim Sachin choked when he got out against Pak in sight of victory. Sehwag got out when we still had 200+ left in that England match where Sachin was unbeaten but you still praise his knock. Isnt that double standards? 3) Why don't you question Laxman's failures or his carrer average? You always quote averages for Ponting. 4) Why don't you question Ponting failures, his getting out when he settled and call it choke too? What about his recent bad form? Finally, despite all the above having great strengths in their particular areas (Sehwag's strike rate, Dravid's resilence, Laxmans rear gaurd battles, etc), batting is a combination of all these and Sachin is the closest one comes to combining all of them into one package and delivering on a consitant basis. He also has his strength and weaknesses but at his best he is unstopabble, at his worst, still above others. When you study about protoplasm and nuclei, its easy to forget that we are discussing about a living creature which is a combination of millions of factor. That seems to be the case with you. Sometimes the most obvious answer (that Sacin has the greatest runs and is held in the highest regards by all experts, ex and current cricketers and critics, even his opponents) is the right one. Digging up stats is good time pass and brings up interesting things but it cannot be the measure of cricket. If cricket was just numbers, mathematicians would be coaches

Patriot, you have still not answered this one

[CSK Fan]

Who would disagree with me that VVS's knock of 72 in Mohali was as much or more precious than Tendulkar's 200 in Bangalore ? Or that Zakky's 12 wickets was the MVP of the series ? But SRT's performance will get most of the credit. I bet you had SRT played the knock VVS played in Mohali - we would not hear the end of it for god knows how many years.=.

Wait a minute. Isn't(or at least till a couple of years ago wasn't) Dravid considered a great crunch player and as the best batsmen overseas?Well, guess what, in almost each and every knock Dravid played, he had another partner who scored a 100 at a higher strike rate who gave him support. So Dravid was sometimes given credit over these others. Yet that was not taken into account by you while stating Dravid's greatness. Is this not another example of double standards from you?

[CSK Fan]

Below are some of the knocks where Baasu played a lot with the tail in tough situations ... Perth http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991-92/IND_IN_AUS/IND_AUS_T5_01-05FEB1992.html J'burg http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1992-93/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_26-30NOV1992.html Capetown http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1992-93/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T4_02-06JAN1993.html Edgbaston http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996/IND_IN_ENG/IND_ENG_T1_06-09JUN1996.html Kanpur vs SAF http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/RSA_IN_IND/RSA_IND_T3_08-12DEC1996.html Cape Town : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_02-06JAN1997.html Melbourne : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/IND_IN_AUS/SCORECARDS/IND_AUS_T2_26-30DEC1999.html Wankhede vs SAF : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/RSA_IN_IND/SCORECARDS/RSA_IND_T1_24-28FEB2000.html Basin Reserve (On Wonderbra's) : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2002-03/IND_IN_NZ/SCORECARDS/IND_NZ_T1_12-16DEC2002.html

Pwned! And I am sure no other Indian batsmen have done this as many times. Laxman gets more chances as he bats qute lower. But you and I know whats gonna happen now. The goal posts will be shifted to the results of these matches. Or to 4th innings BTW, one other thing Patriot is ignoring is that the Zimbabwe of Sachin's time was equivalent to New Zealand of today but he does not ignore Ponting's, et all performance against NZ

[Ram]

:omg: You dumb or what? Comparing a team sport with individual ones? Who told you that Kasparov was ruling no 1 spot for 20 years? He became world champion in 85 and after 95 everything was hazy in world of Chess. Not to say Sachin has been as great in Cricket as Kasparov to Chess' date=' but you have to compare comparables. Tell me one individual who has been so dominating in Cricket or Soccer (may be other than Bradman, but that time we had some 25-30 only individuals playing serious international cricket)[/quote'] That’s the best part. The dude likes to talk about IQ, but promptly goes on to compare rankings b/w individual and team sports, conveniently forgetting that the fortunes of the player often rise and fall with the fate of their own team.

[kabira]

where did my post go??

[kabira]

Basin Reserve (On Wonderbra's) : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2...16DEC2002.html Those who watched this knock, would admire guys capabilities, All others were struggling to put bat to ball and this guy took attack to them, eventually got out playing too many shots.