Imran Khan - 'The lion of Pakistan'

[Asim]

this notion that Imran is an great all rounder is just ridiculous and a myth same like what Bradman's myth of being greatest batsmen just due to his 99.94 Avg is for Aussies Imran being great all rounder is also big myth, which all Pakistanis along with some fools from cricinfo have created. I never rated Imran Khan as a great all rounder, here is why. His bowling evolved during course of his career he started in 1971 but was never a regular fixture in the team till 1976 it took him five years to establish as a permanent team member let alone world class player. He scored his first 100 in his 30th test till then his HS score is 59, Ian Botham scored his first 100 in 4th test and Kapil Dev in his 8th test.Imran Khan scored two hundreds in first 60 test matches and 4 100 in last 28 matches when he was no longer a good bowler. Imran being a great bowler is also up to debate to some extent as Sir Imran suddenly and mysteriously started to pick up wickets at rapid rate after 30 tests.His bowling avg after 30 tests was nearly 30 which is worse among Botham and Kapil. But during his next 30 test matches where his bowling was truly world class his picked up 160 odd wickets including 40 in one series against India where many Indian players playing that tour believed Pakistanis did lot of ball tampering and of course lot of help from umpires. His last 28 tests which have led to creation of this myth that this guy was great all rounder he scored he scored 4 hundreds with avg over 50, which gave his final stats lot of make over.He had already retired once from international cricket only to make a comeback to team Pakistan which Javed still feels only to screw him. A great all rounder is a player who can play a vital innings when rest of batting fails Imran Khan has never played that innings both in odis and tests, he was least talented batsman among the three Ian botham and Kapil dev who have played a lot number of defining innings for their teams than Imran. To pick Imran Khan as all rounder in second world XI is a joke same like to say Dhoni/Sangakara are greater wicket keeper batsmen than Adam Gilchrist just because they AVG more than him. Imran was nothing world class at any stretch except his middle 30 tests where in he somehow managed to pick up 160 odd wickets doing what only god knows.

You built it very nicely, I appriciate but you missed out one aspect, he is considered a great captain or a great all rounder, now look at him as a captain+all rounder: Batting Avg: 52 Bowling Average: 20 I mean this is something extra ordinary... I am not sure if anyone else have such all rounding stats as a captain but I personally feel a genuine bowler or a genuine batsman might struggle as a captain to acheive any one of above stats but he had both with such an exceptional figures as a captain...

[putrevus]

By the way many people here have a habit to ALWAYS criticize Pakistani umpiring in the past' date=' which I believe must be genuine too but nobody ever bothered to mention that Imran Khan was the first captain who took initiative and strongly suggested ICC to start neutral umpiring and rather, if I am not wrong he literally invited 2 umpires from India for a home series vs. WI in 87 when no one else could have imagined this...[/quote'] Have you stopped one sec to think why he did that, he did that for one reason only because he knew his home town umpiring was crooked and biased, if that in your books makes him a great all rounder ?? what else can i add

[putrevus]

You built it very nicely, I appriciate but you missed out one aspect, he is considered a great captain or a great all rounder, now look at him as a captain+all rounder: Batting Avg: 52 Bowling Average: 20 I mean this is something extra ordinary... I am not sure if anyone else have such all rounding stats as a captain but I personally feel a genuine bowler or a genuine batsman might struggle as a captain to acheive any one of above stats but he had both with such an exceptional figures as a captain...

name one great inning which you sir Imran Khan has played thru out his career tests/odis.I will acknowledge him as a great all rounder. One more thing I am saying this is because your own Imran once gave this infamous/incorrect statement "Inzi is better match winner than Sachin' do you recall that if that is case let us ask sir Imran what match winnings he has played for Pakistan. For you guys when it comes to Indians you detest talking about stats but when it comes to Imran you guys suddenly become world's best statisticians.

[thevortex]

For me Wasim Akram is a legend and is best cricketer from Pakistan, Imran hogged all glory of 92 world cup which in fact he almost single handedly screwed things for Pakistan by batting at no3 and batted so slow, he had no business of batting at no3 he neither was the best batsman nor a great stroke maker. it took two great performances one from Inzi in semis and again in finals he batted almost till 32nd over and it took brilliance of Wasim Akram to win the match for Pakistan. What does Imran do he acts as if he was reason why they won world cup which is so not true, he almost screwed it up for Pakistan with his ridiculously slow batting.

He did a good job batting there if I remember right! Over time everybody's game changes. He was no longer an aggressive batsman but one who knows the art of scoring runs and who could put a price on his wicket. If there is one quality that Pakistan needed more than anything else (and still does for that matter) it is that!! As for him being great or not - he was once one of three fastest bowlers in the whole world! Yes, he remodeled his action after his entry into international cricket but that need not be held against him. He was an effective bowler - all over the world. And once he was menacingly quick. He was always canny. In my book he is among the great all rounders of the world. More effective than Kapil Dev purely on the basis of bowling. Imran - over time - became a far more dependable batsman than our tireless Dev could ever become. And Botham's was a far shorter career. And there should be no question as to who was the better bowler - Imran or Botham!

[pensionplan]

name one great inning which you sir Imran Khan has played thru out his career tests/odis.I will acknowledge him as a great all rounder. One more thing I am saying this is because your own Imran once gave this infamous/incorrect statement "Inzi is better match winner than Sachin' do you recall that if that is case let us ask sir Imran what match winnings he has played for Pakistan. For you guys when it comes to Indians you detest talking about stats but when it comes to Imran you guys suddenly become world's best statisticians.

I will take it a step further. For an all-rounder who is touted to be an excellent batsman that can command a spot in the team just based on his batting skills alone in 15 career innings in WI'es not once did he cross 50 averaging less than 22 in the WI'es. As I said in the other thread he is very overrated whose stock rose considerably because he was a good man manager in comparision to say someone like a Miandad for an always in turmoil Pakistan cricket.

[DomainK]

Very interesting discussion here. The grand image of Imran Khan starts to fade.

[thevortex]

I guess one has to be sure of which Imran Khan we are comparing and assessing. Is it the Imran who did not take his batting as seriously as he did during his latter years but bowled like a demon possessed? Or is it the Imran who just about bowled medium fast but put a high price on his wicket? For one thing is for sure - both of the disciplines did not click at the same time too many times for the Khan. Ultimately though a rounded image is what we carry of each cricketer. Especially so when it comes to an all rounder. If the question is whether he was great, then the answer is very simple. There can be subjectivity though when you ask who is the second best all rounder after Sir Sobers.

[putrevus]

He did a good job batting there if I remember right! Over time everybody's game changes. He was no longer an aggressive batsman but one who knows the art of scoring runs and who could put a price on his wicket. If there is one quality that Pakistan needed more than anything else (and still does for that matter) it is that!! As for him being great or not - he was once one of three fastest bowlers in the whole world! Yes, he remodeled his action after his entry into international cricket but that need not be held against him. He was an effective bowler - all over the world. And once he was menacingly quick. He was always canny. In my book he is among the great all rounders of the world. More effective than Kapil Dev purely on the basis of bowling. Imran - over time - became a far more dependable batsman than our tireless Dev could ever become. And Botham's was a far shorter career. And there should be no question as to who was the better bowler - Imran or Botham!

what are you talking about he never was an aggressive batsman his 70 odd SR rate in odis proves it, he was always a grafter more like Ravi Shastri , at no7 whose career is more like Imran, Shastri became a far better batsman than Imran ever was in his career. As i said in middle 30 tests of his career Imran was world class bowler due to reverse swing which Kapil nor Botham ever had this arsenal.Imran for those 30 to 40 tests carried Pakistan bowling.He became great bowler but was never a great all rounder. Imran career lasted 20 years yet he played only 88 matches. Kapil dev played some great knocks against greatest west indies bowling attack of his time remember berbice 72 not out in 36 balls , 89 against patrick paterrson and in tests 100s in tie test chennai, 129 against a rampaging Allan Donald when top orders collapsed like cheap tents Botham also has many of such knocks.

[sangrock]

Very interesting discussion here. The grand image of Imran Khan starts to fade.

:dance:

[thevortex]

what are you talking about he never was an aggressive batsman his 70 odd SR rate in odis proves it, he was always a grafter more like Ravi Shastri , at no7 whose career is more like Imran, Shastri became a far better batsman than Imran ever was in his career. As i said in middle 30 tests of his career Imran was world class bowler due to reverse swing which Kapil nor Botham ever had this arsenal.Imran for those 30 to 40 tests carried Pakistan bowling.He became great bowler but was never a great all rounder. Imran career lasted 20 years yet he played only 88 matches. Kapil dev played some great knocks against greatest west indies bowling attack of his time remember berbice 72 not out in 36 balls , 89 against patrick paterrson and in tests 100s in tie test chennai, 129 against a rampaging Allan Donald when top orders collapsed like cheap tents Botham also has many of such knocks.

And why exactly does he need to be an attacking batsman, pray?! I did not claim that he was one. As for whether Shastri became a much better batsman, that is debatable and off topic. The definition of 'great' is always going to be personal. Forget all those statistics - Imran could bowl well with new ball and old. And pitch in with a dependable batting performance. More than you could say for many of his contemporaries. You mention the many sparkling batting performances of our best all rounder by a distance - Kapil Dev. Do you not remember how many times we have been let down by his impetuosity and his strokeful exhuberance? Nothing works one way. Kapil's aggression is why he has played memorable innings. And exactly because of the same reason he was not very consistent. In the end, both of these giants fitted very well into the roles available in their teams.

[fineleg]

"Ten things you never knew you could do with a bottle cap" Autobiography of Imran Khan Book will be mailed to you by USPS (Allow 7-10 days for delivery) DD/Cash mailed to finey

[putrevus]

Over time everybody's game changes. He was no longer an aggressive batsman but one who knows the art of scoring runs and who could put a price on his wicket. If there is one quality that Pakistan needed more than anything else (and still does for that matter) it is that!.

And why exactly does he need to be an attacking batsman, pray?! I did not claim that he was one. As for whether Shastri became a much better batsman, that is debatable and off topic. The definition of 'great' is always going to be personal. Forget all those statistics - Imran could bowl well with new ball and old. And pitch in with a dependable batting performance. More than you could say for many of his contemporaries. You mention the many sparkling batting performances of our best all rounder by a distance - Kapil Dev. Do you not remember how many times we have been let down by his impetuosity and his strokeful exhuberance? Nothing works one way. Kapil's aggression is why he has played memorable innings. And exactly because of the same reason he was not very consistent. In the end, both of these giants fitted very well into the roles available in their teams.

You read your post you only said he was no longer aggressive batsman, I just only gave you his SR to show otherwise. yes Kapil dev failed lot of times but when he succeeded he changed the matches and he had this knack of coming up big when Indian needed runs he was like Sehwag without his aptitude of big tons and his ability but he could score against any bowling attack in any conditions. It is not like Imran's batting wise was Jacques Kallis after 88 tests kapil dev's was 32 compared to Imran 37 but had more 50s and one less hundred avg being skewed due to more not outs. At no7 you need more impact full innings rather than workman like 30 not outs. Imran was a far better bowler than Kapil .But not a better batsman him.In Odis it is not even contest, I give credit to Imran for his matured approach towards batting later in career but their roles differed due to one remaining captain he had freedom to bat anywhere he wanted and other was not captain anymore. Just one more thing why Kapil has to get more credit, he was the lone wolf and Pioneer for fast bowling in India and changing the face of Indian cricket, where as Imran had more help and nurturing when they started Imran had so many avenues to better himself from county cricket and his oxford education. If look at any footage prior to 1983 how meek Indian team's attitude was and how tough it was for him coming from humble back ground.

[Raghav_12]

I guess one has to be sure of which Imran Khan we are comparing and assessing. Is it the Imran who did not take his batting as seriously as he did during his latter years but bowled like a demon possessed? Or is it the Imran who just about bowled medium fast but put a high price on his wicket? For one thing is for sure - both of the disciplines did not click at the same time too many times for the Khan. Ultimately though a rounded image is what we carry of each cricketer. Especially so when it comes to an all rounder. If the question is whether he was great, then the answer is very simple. There can be subjectivity though when you ask who is the second best all rounder after Sir Sobers.

The point is for majority of his career he played as batsman with an average of 25 or less, hardly meeting even basic qualification of being an allrounder. He could cross average of 30 only after playing 60% of his cricket. So around 60% of the time he played more like bowler who could bat. In last part of his career he became better batsman but I think by that time he had stopped doing a lot of bowling. As somebody else also mentioned about Ravi Shastri, both career had same kind of progression. Shastri started as a bowler and then turned himself into a stodgy batsman. But for there was hardly any time when he started a test match as genuine all-rounder. Please note that I am not comparing Imran with Shastri. I am also not convinced much with this 52 average thing. How many test matches we are taking into account while doing this calculation? Around 30? For that many tests Hussey maintained an average in 70's 0r 80's. Career ending averages may be misleading at times - Vinod Kambli ended his career at an average around 55 I think. Also the fact that he played only 88 test matches despite having a career spanning over 21 years, doesn't reflect good on his greatness.

[Raghav_12]

Very interesting discussion here. The grand image of Imran Khan starts to fade.

Asim might be cursing himself for bringing Imran up for discussion as ICF:haha:

[Asim]

Have you stopped one sec to think why he did that, he did that for one reason only because he knew his home town umpiring was crooked and biased, if that in your books makes him a great all rounder ?? what else can i add

and have you stopped for one sec while reading my post, I clearly mentioned that all your criticism must be genuine for Pakistani umpiring BUT I just said its very sad that you discuss only one side of picture... no one here ever bothered to acknowledge Imran Khan's efforts to introduce and to initiate neutral umpiring and if he called 2 umpires from India in 87 he deserves the credit and yes of course he called them to stop biased umpiring and to promote neutral umpiring, so whats wrong in that?

[putrevus]

and have you stopped for one sec while reading my post' date=' I clearly mentioned that all your criticism must be genuine for Pakistani umpiring BUT I just said its very sad that you discuss only one side of picture... no one here ever bothered to acknowledge Imran Khan's efforts to introduce and to initiate neutral umpiring and if he called 2 umpires from India in 87 he deserves the credit and yes of course he called them to stop biased umpiring and to promote neutral umpiring, so whats wrong in that?[/quote'] nothing wrong with that in fact it was great he did that , he wanted to win fair and square which is what all sportsmen and sports fans ideally want,I have never denied that fact but why put him on some pedestal for doing the right thing which should be given. see what happened in 1989-90 series due to neutral umpiring when India toured pakistan even though Pakistan had great team they could not force any result due to nature of pitches which was norm for most India pakistan series till 90s where series is decided by one match others were generally boring draws. Pakistan fans/players complain about 2-0 drubbing in India was due to umpiring and Indians fans do the same about 3-0 drubbing 1982-83 series.

[Asim]

name one great inning which you sir Imran Khan has played thru out his career tests/odis.I will acknowledge him as a great all rounder. One more thing I am saying this is because your own Imran once gave this infamous/incorrect statement "Inzi is better match winner than Sachin' do you recall that if that is case let us ask sir Imran what match winnings he has played for Pakistan. For you guys when it comes to Indians you detest talking about stats but when it comes to Imran you guys suddenly become world's best statisticians.

Now few things Neither I claim he have too many or any match winning knock, because 1) I was not old enough to watch his most of cricket live 2) there is no entry like "match winning knock" in any stats book or database, but still... fine... you must have seen his all cricket, you claim he dont have any match winning knock, I accept. Now having said that he dont have too many match winning inngs, look on it this way: he is avging 50+ as captain in Test cricket not for 1 or 2 weeks... not for 1 or 2 months but for 10 years long time period... and mremember not as pure batsman although can easily be compared with pure batsmen... Also he is doing great in bowling, within same time period he is taking wickets with an exceptional avg of 20. What I want to say is now, for any player, at the end of his career: term "match winng inngs" sounds good when you are discussing a pure batsman. term "match winng bowlings" sounds good when you discussing a pure bowler. but for all rounders neither you should find match winning inng, nor match winning bowling BUT the "match winning performance"... it could either be batting or bowling or some of both Now go again in record books and just have a quick glance on his overall stats: Just few examples: in some of his last test, he did not bowled but in 1st inng vs WI he scored 73* when only 2 other crossed 2ble figures... match winning vs WI in 88, he failed in batting but took 11 wickets... match winning in Faisalabad vs WI, he took 5 wickets and scored 83 runs, now this might not be great performance in one category but overll it is match winning performance similarly 63 runs, 5 wickets 117 runs, 11 wickets vs india... loot at it again... 33 runs, 10 wickets vs india 70 runs, 5 wickets vs AUS 63 runs, 6 wickets vs IND etc etc

[Pak_Forever]

this notion that Imran is an great all rounder is just ridiculous and a myth same like what Bradman's myth of being greatest batsmen just due to his 99.94 Avg is for Aussies Imran being great all rounder is also big myth, which all Pakistanis along with some fools from cricinfo have created. I never rated Imran Khan as a great all rounder, here is why. His bowling evolved during course of his career he started in 1971 but was never a regular fixture in the team till 1976 it took him five years to establish as a permanent team member let alone world class player. He scored his first 100 in his 30th test till then his HS score is 59, Ian Botham scored his first 100 in 4th test and Kapil Dev in his 8th test.Imran Khan scored two hundreds in first 60 test matches and 4 100 in last 28 matches when he was no longer a good bowler. Imran being a great bowler is also up to debate to some extent as Sir Imran suddenly and mysteriously started to pick up wickets at rapid rate after 30 tests.His bowling avg after 30 tests was nearly 30 which is worse among Botham and Kapil. But during his next 30 test matches where his bowling was truly world class his picked up 160 odd wickets including 40 in one series against India where many Indian players playing that tour believed Pakistanis did lot of ball tampering and of course lot of help from umpires. His last 28 tests which have led to creation of this myth that this guy was great all rounder he scored he scored 4 hundreds with avg over 50, which gave his final stats lot of make over.He had already retired once from international cricket only to make a comeback to team Pakistan which Javed still feels only to screw him. A great all rounder is a player who can play a vital innings when rest of batting fails Imran Khan has never played that innings both in odis and tests, he was least talented batsman among the three Ian botham and Kapil dev who have played a lot number of defining innings for their teams than Imran. To pick Imran Khan as all rounder in second world XI is a joke same like to say Dhoni/Sangakara are greater wicket keeper batsmen than Adam Gilchrist just because they AVG more than him. Imran was nothing world class at any stretch except his middle 30 tests where in he somehow managed to pick up 160 odd wickets doing what only god knows.

:haha: talk about being negative. The world knows he was the best all-rounder and most influential captain.

[EnterTheVoid]

What the **** is up with Pakistani fans comparing their players to jungle animals ? :hysterical:

[Asim]

Asim might be cursing himself for bringing Imran up for discussion as ICF:haha:

<--- my post number :) Not at all my dear :) rather honestly speaking I myself got some oppertunity because of this thread to view Khan's cricketing profile and stats in some depth because previously I only had an overview of his profile in my mind and would you believe I found his stats a way better than what I always thought... Also let me tell you, although the whole world know he was a great player, superb all rounder, extra ordinary captain but had he not played any cricket for Pak, in today's date I would have been the same biggg fan of Imran Khan, why? Because I only watched 1 full match of him which is very clear in my mind and, and although the moment Imran Khan holding World Cup trophy, celebrations everywhere, Pak on the top of cricketing world are unforgettable moments but I love Imran Khan more because of his personality and post cricketing career. Lets totally eliminate cricket from his life, he is still an unbelievable man, he sets a goal and forgets everything else, even forgets his own life in order to achieve that, NEVER accepts defeat, never compromise... He built a free cancer hospital in Pakistan when the feasibility report made by worldwide best experts rejected the project and declared it a failed idea but he never accepted defeat and today its one of the most advanced hospital in Pakistan with free cancer treatment. He joined politics despite knowing that political culture of Pakistan might never allow him to succeed but he came with a purpose and even though its almost 15 year long he is there now and he yet to get any prominent political success but what makes him different is that despite all failure his energy increased every day and he NEVER compromised and never made a single decision for his personal benefit, he even reject the offer by Musharraf to become Prime Minister only because Mush tried to use him for his own purpose and the way was unfair. He is one of rare well educated politician here, studied politics and economics from oxford, he is the only one perfectly far sighted politician right now, thinks every issue in global vision, and thinks so accurately that his predictions remains true even after years, he is the only one who have all the courage which a true leader requires, he is the one who literally don’t care for his life against his goals but till now failing only because of worst political system here, still he is the one true hope for Pakistan's future, what we know and love is the fact that he never gonna giveup. So the Great Khan in my opinion will remain a Legend even if you eliminate his cricketing career, you people asked for his one match winning inng, here you go, he is playing a one true match winning knock for his country actually since he left the cricket.