asterix Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Millions of them. The Syednas, the Azmis, most scholars etc. Google can help you out there. :) I generally don't keep such lists with me 24x7. Don't tell me to Google it. I know very well what needs to do to get information. Since you jumped in the discussion, I asked you and you quoted me first. If you don't have specific name of leaders who made any statements to "not glorify Osama", that's fine.. Your answer is relevant. Because you represent the "secular Muslims" of India. So it'll be interesting to know your views. :winky:
Mariyam Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 I'm not talking about "general leaders.. I'm talking about "Dharm Ke Thekedaars".. The Religious and or Political leaders.. Don't know why Gayrukh was brought in between. Maybe to digress.. Although Sahrukh has also made comments about Pakistan, 26/11 etc. Interesting comments though. i got in SRK as a joke. To cut a long story short. Muslims in India not equal to 1 big homogeneous group. Muslim society in India is divided along the lines of Sect, region, language, school of Islamic jurisprudence and class etc. So this one singular " dharm ke thekedaar" thing doesn't exist. There are many thekedaar's, some of them self anointed and many a times what they say is at odds with what other such thekedaar's say. So, it boils down to which group you want to listen to? General tendency of people is to listen to the person who shouts the loudest and blames others for their problems. This as far as I know, is not a Muslim specific thing. Salman Khurshid is a political leader. Syedna is a religious leader. And there are many like them. @ Homerus : I see you're from Texas. I am told freedom has a different connotation there. :nervous:
Homerus_Unus Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 @ Homerus : I see you're from Texas. I am told freedom has a different connotation there. :nervous: Errr....what is it that you've heard? (Expecting the usual nonsensical tripe) P.S. I love living in Dallas.
Alchemist Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Fortunately or unfortunately I had a chance to visit Nagpada for district basketball tournament. People there celebrated Pakistan winning against NZ in 1998 Independence cup. Nobody was even interested in India match.Everybody wanted to know what and how Pakistan did. Why would I like those people ? It was nice that we got a chance to play them and beat the feking day lights out of them. 65 - 25
Homerus_Unus Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 i got in SRK as a joke. To cut a long story short. Muslims in India not equal to 1 big homogeneous group. Muslim society in India is divided along the lines of Sect, region, language, school of Islamic jurisprudence and class etc. So this one singular " dharm ke thekedaar" thing doesn't exist. I'll agree with that. Religious groups are not monolithic. There are many thekedaar's, some of them self anointed and many a times what they say is at odds with what other such thekedaar's say. So, it boils down to which group you want to listen to? I'll agree with this argument too. General tendency of people is to listen to the person who shouts the loudest and blames others for their problems. Here's where I have to disagree...somewhat. The loudest shouter is never drowned out by sane and moderate voices in the Islamic world. Seriously, did any sane Muslim walk up to this guy and tell him he's wrong with his message....or that his spelling is so frackin' poor that it makes him look like an idiot? As one author claimed recently on CNN "The Islamic extremists go all the way, and the moderates/liberals simply go away." Sorry, but unless the rational voices among Muslims grow a spine and stand up to the bullies (ala Tarek Fatah and the like)...it's a pretty messy situation.
Mariyam Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 May be they did not helped Al Qaida. But some of them do help the terrorist activities in India. I repeat this again, there is no way people can just come to Mumbai and start shooting on random targets. It is well known that they were in the city before to final the targets. Also, what about 93 bomb blasts where the explosives were dropped on Konkan coast in parts which have majority Muslim population. As tangential as this is to the initial argument, The people who were responsible for the blasts ( and got caught) in 93 have been sentenced to death. Or at least most of them have been sentenced to death. You don't see me glorifying any of those. What the hell are you on about? If you are somehow trying to insinuate that the average Muslim = terrorist sympathizer, then there is no point of any further discussion. :two_thumbs_up:
asterix Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Muslims in India not equal to 1 big homogeneous group. Muslim society in India is divided along the lines of Sect, region, language, school of Islamic jurisprudence and class etc. So this one singular " dharm ke thekedaar" thing doesn't exist. There are many thekedaar's, some of them self anointed and many a times what they say is at odds with what other such thekedaar's say. So, it boils down to which group you want to listen to? I thought I made it clear in one of my initial posts about "Secular", "Not to glorify Osama" etc. posts.
Alchemist Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 As tangential as this is to the initial argument, The people who were responsible for the blasts ( and got caught) in 93 have been sentenced to death. Or at least most of them have been sentenced to death. You don't see me glorifying any of those. What the hell are you on about? If you are somehow trying to insinuate that the average Muslim = terrorist sympathizer, then there is no point of any further discussion. :two_thumbs_up: Most of them are. If you decide to blind eye towards them or clean up after them, there is no point talking about it either.
Holysmoke Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 LULz at average muslim = terrorist sympathizer. :hehe:
Alchemist Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 there could internal politics amongst muslim leaders for power struggle but that doesnot mean their stance towards non muslims is any different , even if they feel so in private they will not come out in public since it is not the in thing to do . eg:-lots of hindu leaders have criticized narender modi but how many muslim leaders have criticized ousting of hindus from kashmir You sir, have a point.
Homerus_Unus Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 @ Homerus : I see you're from Texas. I am told freedom has a different connotation there. :nervous: Well...am I going to hear any corroboration over the "freedom has a different connotation in TX" soundbite? Or do I have to conclude you are among those who love conjuring up shite based on half-arsed information they receive from their "phoren-returned" co-workers, friends, or relatives? :hmmm:
Mariyam Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Here's where I have to disagree...somewhat. The loudest shouter is never drowned out by sane and moderate voices in the Islamic world. As one author claimed recently on CNN "The Islamic extremists go all the way, and the moderates/liberals simply go away." Sorry, but unless the rational voices among Muslims grow a spine and stand up to the bullies (ala Tarek Fatah and the like)...it's a pretty messy situation. So let me get this straight. Islamic extremism or even pan-Islamism, which btw is pretty low in India as compared to her neighbours is national problem which only the "Muslim moderates" (however you define them) have to address? That is secularism? I think you greatly exaggerate the problem of Islamic fundamentalism in India. Most Muslim community leaders/moulvis that I've interacted with wouldn't rate it among the top 5 problems that the community faces in the country. Low literacy especially among females, under representation in the corporate sector and govt jobs, infant mortality rates higher than the median for the nation etc are much bigger issues. Wonder why these don't feature in any of our discussions. The percentage of Muslims involved in subversive activities is pretty low. That we can agree upon. The percentage of Muslims affected by these issues on the other hand is quite high. What warrants more attention?
Sachin=GOD Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Labeling the average Muslim as a terrorist sympathizer is completely wrong. There are the extremists among Muslims who do sympathize with terrorists but then again even among the Hindus you've got a large number of such extremists that support some of the retarded activities carried on by the VHP etc in the name of religion.
Alchemist Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 So let me get this straight. Islamic extremism or even pan-Islamism, which btw is pretty low in India as compared to her neighbours is national problem which only the "Muslim moderates" (however you define them) have to address? That is secularism? I think you greatly exaggerate the problem of Islamic fundamentalism in India. Most Muslim community leaders/moulvis that I've interacted with wouldn't rate it among the top 5 problems that the community faces in the country. Low literacy especially among females, under representation in the corporate sector and govt jobs, infant mortality rates higher than the median for the nation etc are much bigger issues. Wonder why these don't feature in any of our discussions. The percentage of Muslims involved in subversive activities is pretty low. That we can agree upon. The percentage of Muslims affected by these issues on the other hand is quite high. What warrants more attention? How much of Muslim female population is literate or have a decent education ?
Mariyam Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Well...am I going to hear any corroboration over the "freedom has a different connotation in TX" soundbite? :hmmm: This is India. We work on rumours and unsubstantiated accusations. :icflove:
Mariyam Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Your answer is relevant. Because you represent the "secular Muslims" of India. So it'll be interesting to know your views. :winky: My views on what?? You are asking me to name some people who criticized xyz or stood up to abc. As far as my knowledge of the Queen's language goes, that is testing my GK and not my views.
asterix Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 My views on what?? You are asking me to name some people who criticized xyz or stood up to abc. As far as my knowledge of the Queen's language goes, that is testing my GK and not my views. You talk about Queen's language. Have you understood my post? Or you just try to go on some hyperbol, just for the heck of it. I asked you: 1) Can you name any Muslim leader of stature who has asked the Muslim community to "not glorify Osama and not read namaaz or offer prayers on his demise"? 2) I wanted to know your views that whether there's a need by any Muslim leader(s), "Secular or Not", to ask what mentioned in point 1, at all or not? Don't go on Hyperbols and don't digress using names like Shahrukh Khan etc. In any case, I can understand from where you are coming to or are going to. For you, if we discuss complicated issues, it directly means blaming "Avegarge Muslims == Terrorist Sympathsizers" etc. Which is NOT. It's not that extreme. Don't jump into conclusions. Average Hindus have kicked Hardline Hindu politicians and Hindu terrorism sympathisers and have criticised them at every forums possible. So it's not very extra ordinary to expect the same from "average Muslims". Muslims are not some group which needs to be molly coddled in every country and not necessarily the only group which is always "victimised". So please come out of any "victim" mentality if you have any.
Texy Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Average Hindus have kicked Hardline Hindu politicians and Hindu terrorism sympathisers and have criticised them at every forums possible. So it's not very extra ordinary to expect the same from "average Muslims". Muslims are not some group which needs to be molly coddled in every country and not necessarily the only group which is always "victimised". So please come out of any "victim" mentality if you have any. :hatsoff::hatsoff: totally agree
asterix Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Islamic clerics hail Osama killing Lucknow, May 2 (IANS) Leading Islamic clerics here Monday hailed the killing of Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in Pakistan as a ‘major blow to terrorism.’ Lucknow’s Naib Imam Maulana Khalid Rasheed, who also heads the city’s oldest Islamic seminary Firangi Mahal told IANS: ‘This is a clear victory of peace loving forces against those busy preaching and propagating terrorism.’ The maulana said: ‘Osama bin Laden was misusing the name of religion and Islam to pursue his personal agenda. Islam firmly believes in peace and is vehemently opposed to violence and terrorism. Yet this man continued to thrive as some kind of self-proclaimed custodian of Islam.’ US naval commandos early Monday shot dead bin Laden at a mansion in Abbottabad, not far from Islamabad, ending one of the biggest manhunts in the world. Rasheed said that bin Laden’s killing would also bring much respite to all those who had suffered on account of his indiscriminate actions. While hailing bin Laden’s killing, renowned Shia scholar and cleric Maulana Kalbe Jawaad wondered if it would really go a long way in ending terrorism. ‘After all, the manner in which bin Laden was created and allowed to grow – with underhand patronage of none other than the US – it would be too simplistic to assume that his entire Al Qaeda empire would crumble behind him in a split second.’ While welcoming the killing of bin Laden, retired army colonel Fasih Uddin Ahmed wanted to know why the US repeatedly ignored India’s assertions about Pakistan harbouring the world’s most wanted terrorist. ‘Time and again India sought to emphasise that Osama bin Laden was being accorded shelter in Pakistan, but the US continued to turn a deaf ear to that.’ ‘No international terrorist of that level could survive in any country without an express nod of those at the helm of affairs. It is therefore now important for the US to initiate some action against Pakistan.’ http://www.inewsone.com/2011/05/02/islamic-clerics-hail-osama-killing/47643 :hatsoff: Not is mainstream news..
Sachin=GOD Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 sometimes i feel non muslims deserves what they get at the hands of muslim fundamentalists, care to explain PFI 's surge in kerala , as I said, a certain section does have extremist mentality but to label an entire community as extremist because of that particular section is wrong. Thats like saying that all Hindus are also extremists because of the RSS's ideology and actions - it is a small section of the community and is not representative of the views/opinions of the majority who abhor violence and terrorism. Labeling an entire community as terrorist sympathizers because of these extremists will only serve to further deepen the religious divide and further isolating the minorities.
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