What does an opener do in his first inning in England?

[Gambit]

Tendulkar's technique is overrated going by his recent exploits. He has scored runs in the recent past only on the flattest of tracks against friendly bowling attacks. When the ball does something him & Sehwag are on a level plane surface and because of his defensive instincts he may fail with a poorer score.

SRT outperformed Sehwag in RSA, in England, in Mumbai against Australia and on NZ wonderbras. On which lethal tracks did Sehwag outperform SRT?

[Bumper]

First of all, your tall claim of Sehwag being MUCH better than SRT since his debut has been torn to shreds and so has your other claim of SRT not showing up against big opponents. What was your laughable quote again?

Lets see SRT's showing against BIG opponents (SA, Pak, Aus) in the last 5 years:194* vs Pak, 241* vs AusHere is Waggy's:195, 155 vs Aus, 309, Two 200+, One 100+ vs Pak, 150+ vs RSACount for yourself. Two vs How many ?

(During this time, Tendy has predominantly been a minnow basher making mince meat of the mighty Bangles while promptly hiding when better opponents showed up).

I'll admit that it was a bit of a needling remark, which was plainly subjective.

Deny all you want, you were proven to be completely wrong here.

Like TWO KNOCKS in 5 years (one of which came against an attack lacking McWarne & another on flattest of tracks :-))

Secondly since Sehwag's debut, SRT has outperformed him against RSA away '01, England home '01, England away '02, WI home '02, NZ away '02, SL '05 and RSA '07. (7 series)Sehwag has outperformed SRT in Aus home '04, Pak away '04, Pak home '05, Pak away '06 and RSA home '04(5 series)They are comparable in Aus away '03. So what were you saying again?

This is an amazing interpretation of statistics.First of all i said last 5 years, u went all the back to 2001. Fine. Lets start from there.U have listed NZ'02, SA'07 as examples for outperforming ? Tell me u are kidding.In both these series, one was mediocre, the other was cr@p.I dont care if one batsman averages 20 & the other 25. To me both are cr@p. There is very little to read into such performances.And in Down Under'03 (as i showed with numbers), Waggy was the better bat

Why 2003? Why not since Sehwag's debut as you claimed which prompted me to step in to relieve you of your misconceptions?

2003 ROUGHLY marks the most recent era (since last world cup timeframe), LOL!

Hmm. Given your love for your fanciful "crunch situations", wouldn't SRT be the winner given he stepped up in the most crucial test of them all i.e. the 4th one when the series was grippingly locked at 1-1? And it's not like SRT made 6 ducks in a row. He made 37 in the 4th inning at Adelaide and 44 in the 3rd inning at MCG.

You are dragging points i made elsewhere in diff debates & placing them here without regard to any context.I discussed "crunch situations" in the past to debate SRT's greatness as a batsman. Are we talking about SRT vs Sehwag's greatness here. I merely claimed Sehwag is the better batsman in the last 5 years. U have dragged crunch & munch here because it suits your hero :-)

In Oct'04, Sehwag was the only bat who got off to a start in most innings and the only bat who showed some fight. And that proves what exactly? By that measure, Tendulkar is the greatest ever hands down given how our lineup used to cave in with alarming regularity. BTW showing some fight means just 2 50+ knocks from 8 innings with an average bolstered by a 10 odd not out? When Tendulkar does the same, you chasten him!

The context of the debate is NOT 1999. It is the last 5 years.

Oh really? But didn't you say this in this very thread?!Quote:If anything I'd argue sehwag has a better case for being picked on reputation, because he has a MUCH BETTER match winning potential AT THIS POINT than Tendulkar. which basically amounts to saying who plays the more influential knock doesn't it? Bizarre!

NOT REALLY! My claim is Sehwag is clearly the better batsman of recent times. The better batsman of recent times offers the better match winning potential. Simple logic, LOL!BTW, am curious which match did Tendu win us in the last 5 years ? Are u referring to the 2nd/3rd test in SA'07 ? (LOL!)

I have never claimed Tendulkar to be better than Sehwag in the last 5 years. I have, however, shot down your ridiculous claim for SRT not performing against bigger opponents. Like I said earlier, you were making it out to be as if SRT was averaging 30 and Sehwag 70! It's safe to say those 'facts' of yours have been blown apart!

I must admit, i floated a statement or two about SRT that were questionable, but u make it sound like, all my claims were baseless. Its your love for SRT thats blinding your eyes :-)

[The Outsider]

bumper, if we are talking recent how about the last year and a half. All Sehwag has to show is a double hundred on a patta in Pakistan and a century on another patta in WI. He must have failed to reach 20 on around 80% of the times he has come out to bat.

[Gambit]

Lets see SRT's showing against BIG opponents (SA, Pak, Aus) in the last 5 years:194* vs Pak, 241* vs AusHere is Waggy's:195, 155 vs Aus, 309, Two 200+, One 100+ vs Pak, 150+ vs RSACount for yourself. Two vs How many ?

I see that you are going to stick to your goalpost changing. Once AGAIN, your first post in this thread stated:

Infact during the time Sehwag & Tendu played test cricket TOGETHER

which is why my numbers start from the day Sehwag started his test career. You set the criteria and I stuck to it. And now you are the one changing it to suit your agenda. Anyway, I'll let that slide. Lets move on.

Like TWO KNOCKS in 5 years (one of which came against an attack lacking McWarne & another on flattest of tracks :-))

195 against an attack lacking McWarne, all Pak knocks on the flattest tracks known to man and the 150+ against RSA on a track where even Andrew Hall scored 150+. :hysterical:

This is an amazing interpretation of statistics.First of all i said last 5 years, u went all the back to 2001.

No you didn't. Let's move on.

Fine. Lets start from there.U have listed NZ'02, SA'07 as examples for outperforming ? Tell me u are kidding.In both these series, one was mediocre, the other was cr@p.I dont care if one batsman averages 20 & the other 25. To me both are cr@p. There is very little to read into such performances.

To you there maybe little to read(how convenient ) but in the context of the series, SRT was our 2nd best batsman on either tour. On the NZ tour, only he and RD managed 50+ innings. Your legend made 1 more than Harbhajan Singh and in RSA, the less said the better.

And in Down Under'03 (as i showed with numbers), Waggy was the better bat

Well, you didn't convince me. Or maybe not even yourself.

NOT REALLY! My claim is Sehwag is clearly the better batsman of recent times. The better batsman of recent times offers the better match winning potential. Simple logic, LOL!BTW, am curious which match did Tendu win us in the last 5 years ? Are u referring to the 2nd/3rd test in SA'07 ? (LOL!)

2nd/3rd test? We didn't even win that. SRT certainly played a big role in winning the 4th test against OZ in Mumbai. Which test has Sehwag won for us BTW and how long ago was it? Do tell. And let's see how clearly the better batsman won us matches. And in all our big victories since your champion debuted, he has got only 1 100(309) and 1 50(RSA home '04) against big teams in matches won by us. Tendulkar has 2 100s(193 and 194*) and 4 50s. And if I include SL(why an attack comprising Murali and Vaas isn't a big team for you, only god knows why) your champion will look even worse! And in response to your flat track remark kindly point out SRT on which lethal tracks did Sehwag outperform SRT?

[Dhondy]

And in response to your flat track remark kindly point out SRT on which lethal tracks did Sehwag outperform SRT? Lahore 2004? Against a rampaging Umar Gul, Sachin scored 2 and 8. Sehwag got 39 and 90. BTW, for not one or two, but over four successive series against non-minnow teams before his slump, twice against Pakistan home and away, and against Australia and SA at home, Sehwag was the highest scorer for the Indian team, not just by a small margin, but by a country mile. In the one off Test against Australia, while the ROW batsmen couldn't buy a run, Sehwag scored 76. That's the measure of his merit. There has been a concerted campaign against him in the media by people like Sandeep Patil. Two failures against England and SA, and he is out. Unbelievable!

[Bumper]

Gambit i'll respond later tonite. Something has come up

[Ram]

All these records/significant contributions of sehwag that have been highlighted have come in his best times. Now he is waaaaaaay off form and i dont think there will be too many doubting that statement. And sachin has been at his worst in the last 3-4 years. But , sachin at his worst is still a match fr sehwag at his best.

[Predator_05]

And in response to your flat track remark kindly point out SRT on which lethal tracks did Sehwag outperform SRT? Lahore 2004? Against a rampaging Umar Gul, Sachin scored 2 and 8. Sehwag got 39 and 90. BTW, for not one or two, but over four successive series against non-minnow teams before his slump, twice against Pakistan home and away, and against Australia and SA at home, Sehwag was the highest scorer for the Indian team, not just by a small margin, but by a country mile. In the one off Test against Australia, while the ROW batsmen couldn't buy a run, Sehwag scored 76. That's the measure of his merit. There has been a concerted campaign against him in the media by people like Sandeep Patil. Two failures against England and SA, and he is out. Unbelievable!

Come on, be fair. Why are you forgetting Tendulkar's 55 off 83 deliveries vs AUS in the 2nd innings of the 4th BG Series Test - an innings which was scored on an absolutely horrendous Mumbai pitch ? He and Laxman built the foundation for a total which afforded the bowlers a small chance to seize victory; which they did. A match-winning knock on a scary pitch on which IND had been dismissed for 100 in their first innings. Sehwag by contrast, didn't reach double figures in either innings. Or how about the '02 Test Series in NZ - namely the 2nd innings of the first test at the Basin Reserve ? Against a sh*t hot Shane Bond (who took 4 wickets in that innings), Tendulkar scored 51 off 74 balls, but India STILL collapsed for 121 all out. On the same pitch, Sehwag made 2 and 12. In two of the most challenging conditions - matches in which IND were bowled out for under on 200 all four occasions, Tendulkar still came out with a bit of credit, while Sehwag was just another mortal in a spineless team

[Ram]

Why does every arguement have to start and end with Sachin ??? :confused_smile::confused_smile::confused_smile:

[Bumper]

195 against an attack lacking McWarne, all Pak knocks on the flattest tracks known to man and the 150+ against RSA on a track where even Andrew Hall scored 150+.

How come SRT who played in similar conditions against the same bowling attack has ONLY TWO, whereas Sehwag has 7 big hundreds ? BTW, it was you who claimed SRT is a better player in difficult conditions. I see that he isnt even good enuff on flat tracks :-)

To you there maybe little to read(how convenient ) but in the context of the series, SRT was our 2nd best batsman on either tour. On the NZ tour, only he and RD managed 50+ innings. Your legend made 1 more than Harbhajan Singh and in RSA, the less said the better.

Second best, hahaha! In a list full of mediocre averages whats the point in discussing relative merits of averages ? But u have to latch on to anything dont you ? Unlike you, i have the luxury of falling back on a list of averages where Veeru is waay ahead of his peers. Show me a dominant series SRT had with the bat in the last 5 years. As Dhondy points above, Sehwag had atleast 4 such series. He was MoS in atleast 3.

Well, you didn't convince me. Or maybe not even yourself.

I dont think i can convince you, because u dont want to be. Tendu had an impact in ONLY ONE test. Sehwag played a crucial role in atleast 3 tests.

2nd/3rd test? We didn't even win that. SRT certainly played a big role in winning the 4th test against OZ in Mumbai. Which test has Sehwag won for us BTW and how long ago was it? Do tell. And let's see how clearly the better batsman won us matches. And in all our big victories since your champion debuted, he has got only 1 100(309) and 1 50(RSA home '04) against big teams in matches won by us. Tendulkar has 2 100s(193 and 194*) and 4 50s. And if I include SL(why an attack comprising Murali and Vaas isn't a big team for you, only god knows why) your champion will look even worse!

Aus, Pak, SA have historically been our nemesis teams. They also boast the best bowling attacks of modern times. Lankans have always been our biyatches at home. Anyways coming back to the point, one clarification on the knocks that u quoted. I thought u agreed the time frame is since 2003. SRT's 193 was in Aug 2002. Ok I'll let it go. Your statement that sehwag has only 1 100 & 1 50 is wrong. Sehwag scored 81 in Kolkatta'05 vs Pak, which we won. Since u included 193 vs England, i too can include Sehwag's 76* vs England at Mohali'05 which we won. I also see that you have ignored the games veeru setup/saved for us ? How about his 155 in Chennai vs Aus when we hardly scored 350 in the first innings ? Only rain stood between Sehwag & victory in the second innings. You take sehwag out, we'd have been defeated inside 3 days. How about the 200+ at Mohali'05 vs Pak ? Your hero along with Ganguly batted for 3 hours & scored 40 runs and guaranteed that rain took away the opportunity for a win. Same is true with the 180 odd he scored vs WI. Rain took away one day from the test match. I cant recall SRT save or setup games like that in the last 5 years. Clearly in the last 5 years Sehwag has shown more potential to win test matches than Tendulkar.

And in response to your flat track remark kindly point out SRT on which lethal tracks did Sehwag outperform SRT?

195 at Melbourne involved surviving the new ball in helpful conditions against Lee & Gillespie. His 39 & 90+ as Dhondy points at Lahore'04 were under challenging conditions too. Anyways i NEVER claimed veeru is a good player on difficult tracks. I was merely rebutting Shwetabh's claims that SRT is a much better player in such conditions, which is simply not true going by recent records (if u consider his overall career may be, but not in the last 5 years). Only Dravid can lay claims to that honor

[King]

Both Tendulkar and Sehwag have looked out of sorts over the last few years. Sehwag definitely doesn't deserve a place seeing the way he batted against Bangladesh in the ODIs. He batted like a no.8 pinch hitter against Bangladesh on pitches good for batting. I don't have much hope for him. He was a good batter but not anymore. He has sucked for far too long. Similarly Tendulkar has been 3rd or 4th best Indian batsman over the last few years but I can't agree he has to be dropped. Whatever his fashion of scoring runs he is still getting them whenever he has had opportunity be it against minnows or not. I don't reckon both are going to make much impact in the upcoming series. Tendulkar has his eyes on the number and will make one or two big score but will also cost us a game or two. Sehwag will cost us all the games if he is played. Both aren't match winners anymore, it's time we move on. We are still looking and pondering about some glorious past. It is time to look forward to the future. Tendulkar era has come to an end, he is not "THE THING" these days. He still is good enough to be in the team though. I look forward to Rahul Dravid, Laxman and even Ganguly to make some impact in this series. Won't be surprised if Yuvraj Singh turns out a hero.

[THX_1138]

the fat bloke deserves a spot in the team, and i am not saying this because he is from delhi, but he does not deserve to open. play him as a late order or middle order batsman. since we are playing musical chairs with laxman's career, i believe we do have an opening somewhere this bald and overweight slugger can squeeze into.

[Gambit]

How come SRT who played in similar conditions against the same bowling attack has ONLY TWO, whereas Sehwag has 7 big hundreds ? BTW, it was you who claimed SRT is a better player in difficult conditions. I see that he isnt even good enuff on flat tracks :-)

Good stuff! We are finally making some progress. So Sehwag can only play well on flat tracks and shouldn't be counted upon to do well on difficult tracks. Why such low expectations from your enormous "matchwinning potential"?

Second best, hahaha! In a list full of mediocre averages whats the point in discussing relative merits of averages ? But u have to latch on to anything dont you ? Unlike you, i have the luxury of falling back on a list of averages where Veeru is waay ahead of his peers.

As usual, you fail to see the point. In two series where runs were hard to come by for batsmen on BOTH teams i.e. a bowler dominated series, coming out the 2nd best batsman in a team is not something to brush aside. BTW this is the same SRT who you say makes runs only against friendly bowling lineups. :) Where did your precious Veeru darling go against these guys? Sehwag against RSA in RSA and against NZ in NZ came a cropper. Aus '04, the pitches weren't as deadly as we had faced in the past and the bowling was miles friendlier than the lineups we faced in the 90s. His only praiseworthy performance on difficult tracks against class opposition was v Aus '04 in India.

Show me a dominant series SRT had with the bat in the last 5 years. As Dhondy points above, Sehwag had atleast 4 such series. He was MoS in atleast 3.

Huh? You have repeatedly asserted in this thread that SRT has only scored against minnows in the past 5 years and that he has run away against your big teams. Get two things in your head. I never said SRT has been awesome in the last 5 years. And I never said he was Sehwag's daddy in the last 5 years either. I have shown both of them to be comparable; quite the opposite of what you have claimed for your SRT "clone". What you have done so far is make one tall claim after another, shift goalposts(You should work for the Bush administration.) and undermine SRT's knocks while praise Veeru's knocks made against the same opposition on same tracks.

Your statement that sehwag has only 1 100 & 1 50 is wrong. Sehwag scored 81 in Kolkatta'05 vs Pak, which we won. Since u included 193 vs England, i too can include Sehwag's 76* vs England at Mohali'05 which we won.

LOL! Include that if you want. Despite that, Sehwag only has 1 ton and 3 50s in matches won compared to Tendulkar who has 2 100s(193 and 194*) and 4 50s.Given your love for "matchwinning criteria", your hero fails miserably here. And no surprise, you have tried tiptoe your way yet again out of this one.

I also see that you have ignored the games veeru setup/saved for us ? How about his 155 in Chennai vs Aus when we hardly scored 350 in the first innings ? Only rain stood between Sehwag & victory in the second innings. You take sehwag out, we'd have been defeated inside 3 days.

This is fun. After having seen that SRT outperformed Sehwag in matches won, you have shifted goalposts again by coming up with this new games saved/setup drama. :hysterical: Anyway, I'll humour you. Which game has Veeru saved for us? That 155 saved us? What nonsense. By that logic, take out SRT's 194* and Pak wouldn't have followed on. Australia had scored a paltry 230 odd in the first innings and nowhere was it evident that we would lose within 3 days had Sehwag been out for 0. That inning did setup a victory for us I admit.

I cant recall SRT save or setup games like that in the last 5 years. Clearly in the last 5 years Sehwag has shown more potential to win test matches than Tendulkar.

Do you suffer from convenient memory losses? I see that you mentioned Sehwag's knock against WI. If you are that desperate to count WI, I'll do the same. 92(day 4 and 5) v England 2nd test Nottingham in the 3rd innings when we were 11/2 trailing by 300+ runs. 117 v WI 2nd test in WI setup our first test victory in WI after 30+ years. 176 v WI 3rd test Calcutta in the 3rd innings after we were 87/4 looking at a shock defeat. 55 v Australia 4th test Mumbai. "Setup" victory for us from a no hope situation. 109 v SL 1st test Delhi."Setup" victory for us. I don't know why I even bother arguing with someone who will not change his opinion re:SRT anyway because of reasons best known to him.:shot:

[Bumper]

Why such low expectations from your enormous "matchwinning potential"?

Whats match winning potential has anything to do with flat tracks anyways ? Match winning potential to me involves maximising the conditions provided (could be flat track or seaming track or turning track) & producing a superlative performance.

As usual, you fail to see the point. In two series where runs were hard to come by for batsmen on BOTH teams i.e. a bowler dominated series, coming out the 2nd best batsman in a team is not something to brush aside. BTW this is the same SRT who you say makes runs only against friendly bowling lineups. :)

Really ? One or two swallows does not a summer make. How about the numerous times SRT failed in difficult conditions (not just tracks, but also match situations, opponents etc) ? Do they not count ? Basically what u are saying is if a player scores once or twice out of 10 attempts in difficult times, he cannot be considered a failure in difficult situations ? Here is a dossier of failures of SRT (since 2003): Ind-Aus'03 --> 3 single digits (spanning 3 tests) Ind-Pak'04 --> 3 single digits (spanning 2 tests) Ind-Aus'04 --> 3 single digits (spanning 2 tests) Ind-SA'04 --> 1 single digit, 1 sub 20 score (spanning 2 tests) Ind-Pak'06, Ind-Eng'06 --> Scored some meaningless 20s which may help u build a case for averages, but IMO he was a total flop. Even in Ind-SA'07, which u frequently point to shoot down Sehwag, the only knocks that have some merit were 44, 63 (nothing big). There were about 3-4 flop shows in that series when chips were down. Basically my summary is this: 1) When chips were down SRT failed frequently (may be less frequently than Sehwag when pitches were difficult to bat, but that doesnt take away his share of failures) 2) When he salvaged something in difficult times, they were usually nothing extraordinary. Like his 37 @ Adelaide, 44 @ in SA, 63 @ SA or his 50 in NZ. This is not enuff for me to conclude SRT did well in difficult conditions in the last 5 years. I consider this a FAILURE. As i said Dravid is our only batsman who has played some significant knocks in dire conditions, be it pitch or pressure.

Where did your precious Veeru darling go against these guys? Sehwag against RSA in RSA and against NZ in NZ came a cropper. Aus '04, the pitches weren't as deadly as we had faced in the past and the bowling was miles friendlier than the lineups we faced in the 90s. His only praiseworthy performance on difficult tracks against class opposition was v Aus '04 in India.

You accuse me of selective reading, but u resort to the same :haha: So difficult conditions are all about pitch, pitch & pitch only ? It doesnt matter who the opponents were, what situations the runs came from ? These factors also contribute the degree of difficulty. Infact in many cases, they contribute the most to a batsman's failure. To set things straight, Sehwag & Tendu since 2003, has played against Australia twice, SA twice, Pak thrice. Sehwag scored well against Australia both times. Tendu did OK once (in Aus). Against SA, the honors are even (Sehwag did well at home & flopped abroad, while SRT flopped at home & did ok abroad). Against Pakistan, the comparison does not even begin. Against WI they BOTH did not play together since 2003. Against England, both failed Against SL, Tendu did better. Against NZ, didnt play. In series Sehwag was better he was waay better, unlike Tendu who merely outperformed Veeru in the series he did well

Huh? You have repeatedly asserted in this thread that SRT has only scored against minnows in the past 5 years and that he has run away against your big teams.

I already conceded that was an overexaggerated claim & i thought u even said u'll let it slide.

Get two things in your head. I never said SRT has been awesome in the last 5 years. And I never said he was Sehwag's daddy in the last 5 years either. I have shown both of them to be comparable; quite the opposite of what you have claimed for your SRT "clone". What you have done so far is make one tall claim after another, shift goalposts(You should work for the Bush administration.) and undermine SRT's knocks while praise Veeru's knocks made against the same opposition on same tracks.

I dont know if i'll be successful in a Bush'ss administration, but with your ability to flip flop & recycle facts u'll do darn well in Sonia's :haha:, as u will find out below.

LOL! Include that if you want. Despite that, Sehwag only has 1 ton and 3 50s in matches won compared to Tendulkar who has 2 100s(193 and 194*) and 4 50s.Given your love for "matchwinning criteria", your hero fails miserably here. And no surprise, you have tried tiptoe your way yet again out of this one.

I aint tiptoeing. Lets keep my claims in perspective here a bit: 1) Sehwag is clearly a better batsman than SRT in the last 5 years (I already clarified by that i meant since beginning of 2003, which u also agreed) 2) Sehwag has shown better match winning potential than SRT in this time frame. To support (1), i have shown opponent by opponent series performance since 2003 above. I have also supported it by showing 7 to 8 BIG 100s Sehwag has scored against key opponents vs Tendu's 2 and that Waggy has dominated atleast 4 series & won MoS in atleast 3. More on (2) follows.

This is fun. After having seen that SRT outperformed Sehwag in matches won, you have shifted goalposts again by coming up with this new games saved/setup drama. :hysterical: Anyway, I'll humour you. Which game has Veeru saved for us? That 155 saved us? What nonsense. By that logic, take out SRT's 194* and Pak wouldn't have followed on. Australia had scored a paltry 230 odd in the first innings and nowhere was it evident that we would lose within 3 days had Sehwag been out for 0. That inning did setup a victory for us I admit.

This is where u lay strong claims to be part of Sonia's administration :hysterical: To support (2), which talks about MATCH WINNING POTENTIAL, we discussed match winning knocks of the respective players as well as games that the resp players setup/saved for us. Now u either include a knock in the saved/setup category or match winning category. U cant have it BOTH ways. I see that u have merrily recycled the 194*, 55 as big knock vs big opponents, match winning knock, match saving knock, match setup knock etc. How many more categories are u gonna reuse it for ? :hysterical:

Do you suffer from convenient memory losses? I see that you mentioned Sehwag's knock against WI. If you are that desperate to count WI, I'll do the same. 92(day 4 and 5) v England 2nd test Nottingham in the 3rd innings when we were 11/2 trailing by 300+ runs. 117 v WI 2nd test in WI setup our first test victory in WI after 30+ years. 176 v WI 3rd test Calcutta in the 3rd innings after we were 87/4 looking at a shock defeat. 55 v Australia 4th test Mumbai. "Setup" victory for us from a no hope situation. 109 v SL 1st test Delhi."Setup" victory for us.

I dont suffer from any losses. It is you who is flip flopping here. I thought u agreed the time frame was since 2003. I never said Sehwag was better than SRT in 2002, did I ? That 55 is already used by you as match winning knock. Its also a match saving & match setup knock :hysterical: U have also used 109 as a match winning 100, its also a match saving & match setup knock ?:hysterical: The above list basically yields ZERO qualifying knocks of SRT if u start from 2003 & take out double counted knocks. My claim stands, since 2003, Sehwag has shown much more match winning potential than SRT. His 200s vs Pak, 173 vs Pak, 155 vs Aus, 164 vs SA, 180+ vs WI (which were not counted under match winning), are all examples of knocks that helped us setup/save games. Flat track or not each of these knocks had a important role to play in the game. You take out these knocks India would have been in trouble or not in a commanding position Now u add up the match winning knocks + match saving/setup knocks (which is a big zero), u'll see that SRT ends up way short. And this without even discounting the fact that u double counted some 50s that SRT contributed in the SAME match (2 50s vs Pak in Kolkatta) which essentially is just ONE match winning performance. Since i have the luxury of a large margin here, i'll let that go. And if i want to nitpick further i can point that barring may be one knock (100 vs SL), SRT primarily played a second fiddle role in winning games. But i'll let that go too :haha:

I don't know why I even bother arguing with someone who will not change his opinion re:SRT anyway because of reasons best known to him.

Really ?:haha: U & me are the extreme opposites when it comes to SRT. I'll admit, both have been unfair in more than one ways in praising or ripping him apart. But dont let such rhetoric come in the way of an otherwise justifiable debate.

[Gambit]

Really ? One or two swallows does not a summer make. How about the numerous times SRT failed in difficult conditions (not just tracks, but also match situations, opponents etc) ?Do they not count ? Basically what u are saying is if a player scores once or twice out of 10 attempts in difficult times, he cannot be considered a failure in difficult situations ?

Even the best batsmen under pressure deliver, atmost 3-4 times out of 10. You would be hard pressed to find a batsman who has delivered/ has more than 30% of innings under pressure.

Here is a dossier of failures of SRT (since 2003): Ind-Aus'03 --> 3 single digits (spanning 3 tests) Ind-Pak'04 --> 3 single digits (spanning 2 tests) Ind-Aus'04 --> 3 single digits (spanning 2 tests) Ind-SA'04 --> 1 single digit, 1 sub 20 score (spanning 2 tests) Ind-Pak'06, Ind-Eng'06 --> Scored some meaningless 20s which may help u build a case for averages, but IMO he was a total flop.

That's a slightly harsh way of looking at failures. Ok. Let me apply the same to Sehwag and see if what you are saying about Sehwag being better than SRT by this criterion has any merit or not. Ok, according to you, SRT has 10 single digit failures. Here is a dossier of Sehwag's failures: Ind-NZ '02 - Laughable performance. Ind-Aus '04 - 3 single digits (spanning 2 tests) Ind-Pak '06 - 3 single digits (spanning 2 tests) Ind-Eng '06 - 4 single digits (spanning 2 tests) - A new world record ladies and gentlemen! Ind-RSA '06 - 4 single digits again!(spanning 3 tests) - He has equalled his world record!! LOL! 14 single digit failures! Sehwag is the undisputed champion of bumper's latest criterion! :hysterical:

Even in Ind-SA'07, which u frequently point to shoot down Sehwag, the only knocks that have some merit were 44, 63 (nothing big). There were about 3-4 flop shows in that series when chips were down.

Nice. Conveniently missed out the 64 in the 3rd test. And there weren't 3-4 flop shows when the chips were down. There were at most 2(T2I2 and T3I2) as opposed to many more for Sehwag.

Basically my summary is this: 1) When chips were down SRT failed frequently (may be less frequently than Sehwag when pitches were difficult to bat, but that doesnt take away his share of failures)

Even if you forget the pitches, Sehwag seems to have had more failures that SRT going by the criteria you set! This is when he was supposedly at his peak and SRT in decline! So basically, in the last 5 years, he has failed more often that SRT based on the criteria you set. Boy, you sure know how to contradict yourself and shoot yourself in the foot! :hysterical:

To set things straight, Sehwag & Tendu since 2003, has played against Australia twice, SA twice, Pak thrice. Sehwag scored well against Australia both times. Tendu did OK once (in Aus). Against SA, the honors are even (Sehwag did well at home & flopped abroad, while SRT flopped at home & did ok abroad). Against Pakistan, the comparison does not even begin. Against WI they BOTH did not play together since 2003. Against England, both failed Against SL, Tendu did better. Against NZ, didnt play. In series Sehwag was better he was waay better, unlike Tendu who merely outperformed Veeru in the series he did well

We've belaboured this point before and you know how what I think about this and I've made me point several times. Too tired to say the same thing again.

I already conceded that was an overexaggerated claim & i thought u even said u'll let it slide.

Yup. Forget about it.

1) Sehwag is clearly a better batsman than SRT in the last 5 years (I already clarified by that i meant since beginning of 2003, which u also agreed)

After all we have seen, you have to be blind or Cheney () to state even now that Sehwag has been clearly better than SRT. I'm sticking to last 5 years set by you initially: May/June 2002 - Present.

2) Sehwag has shown better match winning potential than SRT in this time frame.

Fuzzy logic. This match winning potential logic is quite flimsy and untenable in my view.

now u either include a knock in the saved/setup category or match winning category. U cant have it BOTH ways.

Fair enough. I didn't know you couldn't have 1 knock in two categories(like match won and setup).

I dont suffer from any losses. It is you who is flip flopping here. I thought u agreed the time frame was since 2003. I never said Sehwag was better than SRT in 2002, did I ?

I wonder who said this:

Infact during the time Sehwag & Tendu played test cricket TOGETHER

which in fact is 2001. AND

Gambit, i have been following both sehwag & Tendu's career closely in the last 5 years.

AND

it was Sehwag who stood out in the last 5 years.

Another effort at goalpost changing

His 200s vs Pak........Now u add up the match winning knocks + match saving/setup knocks (which is a big zero), u'll see that SRT ends up way short. And this without even discounting the fact that u double counted some 50s that SRT contributed in the SAME match (2 50s vs Pak in Kolkatta) which essentially is just ONE match winning performance. Since i have the luxury of a large margin here, i'll let that go. And if i want to nitpick further i can point that barring may be one knock (100 vs SL), SRT primarily played a second fiddle role in winning games. But i'll let that go too

Ok. Let's go. 200s v Pak? Are you including the one in that rain affected match as well? What is that exactly? Match saving? Ok, I'll include similar knocks then. And second fiddle or not, a good/great performance in saving/winning matches is to be hailed. If that were the case, 95% of Dravid's knocks wouldn't count going by your criteria. And 180+ against WI in an inning where even Kaif scored a ton? LOL. Great match setting up. Ok, I'll include similar knocks. Sehwag(Matches won/setup): Aus - 155 Pak - 309,201,173,81 RSA - 88 WI - 147,180,61 Eng - 75* (Total: 6 tons, 4 50s) Saved: Pak - 254 ?!?! :hysterical: Total: 7 tons and 4 50s. Tendulkar(Matches won/setup): Aus - 55, Eng - 193 Pak - 194*,52,52 SL - 109 WI - 117 (4 tons, 3 50s) Saved: Eng - 92 WI - 176 Total - 5 tons and 4 50s. He has a grand total of 2 50+ knocks more than SRT in the criteria set by you. Yup, like you said. SRT does fall waaaaaaaaay short of Sehwag in this regard. :hysterical: So really, is he really*that* clearly a better batsman than SRT in the last 5 years, Mr.Cheney? And this is when he was at his peak and SRT was in decline!

Really ? U & me are the extreme opposites when it comes to SRT. I'll admit, both have been unfair in more than one ways in praising or ripping him apart. But dont let such rhetoric come in the way of an otherwise justifiable debate.

I don't go over the top praising SRT and my praise for him is never as extreme as your criticism of him. If anything, there hasn't been much to cherish about SRT in the last few years. Having said that, this clouds your judgement of his overall career and for me, it doesn't.

[Bumper]

That's a slightly harsh way of looking at failures. Ok. Let me apply the same to Sehwag and see if what you are saying about Sehwag being better than SRT by this criterion has any merit or not. Ok, according to you, SRT has 10 single digit failures. : LOL! 14 single digit failures! Sehwag is the undisputed champion of bumper's latest criterion! :hysterical:

Waste of effort from u really, trying to disprove something that i never claimed. I thought it was u who claimed SRT is a much better player in difficult conditions & that Sehwag was cr@p. My rebuttal wasnt that sehwag was great, but merely SRT was cr@p too. By showing that Sehwag failed more often then Tendu u havent proved or disproved anything. Thats a convenient digression from the main point of focus. :haha:

Nice. Conveniently missed out the 64 in the 3rd test. And there weren't 3-4 flop shows when the chips were down. There were at most 2(T2I2 and T3I2) as opposed to many more for Sehwag.

I thought u said knocks under difficult conditions ? That 64 was one among the many 40s & 50s rest of the batsmen scored on that patta. Heck even Sehwag (who acc to u failed miserably) scored 40+ on the same track. SRT failed in the 2nd innings of test-1, test-2, test-3. Third esp the most embarrassing, handing our vantage position right back to SA, who never looked back from there.

Even if you forget the pitches, Sehwag seems to have had more failures that SRT going by the criteria you set! This is when he was supposedly at his peak and SRT in decline! So basically, in the last 5 years, he has failed more often that SRT based on the criteria you set. Boy, you sure know how to contradict yourself and shoot yourself in the foot!

Read above. You got this argument in circles. U sound like the pommies claiming Moral victories prematurely & frequently :haha:

After all we have seen, you have to be blind or Cheney to state even now that Sehwag has been clearly better than SRT. I'm sticking to last 5 years set by you initially: May/June 2002 - Present.

Inspite of me repeatedly clarifying that i meant beginning of 2003 as the beginning of last 5 year term ? Why do u have to be so desperate Gambo ?:haha:

Fuzzy logic. This match winning potential logic is quite flimsy and untenable in my view.

Whats fuzzy about the definition "Match winning potential is the ability to alter the course of the match significantly by producing knocks that can help win, save or setup matches" ?

Fair enough. I didn't know you couldn't have 1 knock in two categories(like match won and setup).

There is nothing devious about this. By double counting u have the opportunity to recycle the same knocks & use them to make your fav one look better than he is.

I wonder who said this: which in fact is 2001.

I already admitted that was a loose statement & that i actually meant beginning of 2003 as my time frame. Let me put this to rest, once for all. I made these statements to CC in a diff context. It was more of a subjective than objective comment. When i entered a debate with u, in my first or second post i did clarify i was talking beginning 2003 as the starting point for the debate. And u also did agree with that (so i thought), until the last two posts, when u have flip flopping as u discover that abandoning 2002 will make your hero become zero all of a sudden :hysterical:

Ok. Let's go. 200s v Pak? Are you including the one in that rain affected match as well? What is that exactly? Match saving? Ok, I'll include similar knocks then.

Yeah go on include them, which knock are u talking about ? We were chasing 600 & were under pressure right away. Knowing our choke meisters (including your maestro), a sehwag's single digit failure would have seen us in early trouble from which we may have never recovered. Sehwag is an opener. He makes or breaks pressure. There are other instances, where he went cheaply when we chased big totals on decent batting tracks, (Remember 2nd innings Karachi'06 ?) & we had folded like nine pins.

Sehwag(Matches won/setup): Aus - 155 Pak - 309,201,173,81 RSA - 88 WI - 147,180,61 Eng - 75* (Total: 6 tons, 4 50s) Saved: Pak - 254 ?!?! Total: 7 tons and 4 50s. Tendulkar(Matches won/setup): Aus - 55, Eng - 193 Pak - 194*,52,52 SL - 109 WI - 117 (4 tons, 3 50s) Saved: Eng - 92 WI - 176 Total - 5 tons and 4 50s.

Eng 193, 92 WI 176, 117 all came in 2002, Flip flopper :hysterical: That makes it 2 tons & 3 50s. Oh did i mention 2 of those 3 50s came in the SAME GAME (in effect a double count), Holy, moly we dont have anything to compare :hysterical:

He has a grand total of 2 50+ knocks more than SRT in the criteria set by you. Yup, like you said. SRT does fall waaaaaaaaay short of Sehwag in this regard. :hysterical:

7 tons vs 2 tons, 4 50s vs 3 (including a double count). Where i come from, this is waay better

So really, is he really*that* clearly a better batsman than SRT in the last 5 years, Mr.Cheney? And this is when he was at his peak and SRT was in decline!

Yes, Mr. Laloo

[Predator_05]

Alright you mugs - this is the bottom line; Since Sehwag's debut in 01/02; 01/02 Tendulkar was the better batsman, no questions asked 02/03 Tough call, as they both got hundreds vs WI (Sehwag 147 and Tendulkar 176) but Sehwag did nothing in NZ where Tendulkar did OK, so i'll give this one to Tendulkar 03/04 Sehwag was the better batsman (Tendulkar had a good season too, but a poor series at home vs NZ loses him this round - Sehwag scored a matchsaving 130 in the 2nd test of that series @ Mohali) 04/05 Sehwag was the better batsman, no questions asked - this was the "tennis elbow" year for Tendulkar, but i doubt he would have topped Sehwag even at full fitness 05/06 Sehwag was better, although not by much as this was when his streak started to fade (ie; one good knock amongst several failures - see SL @ home, PAK tour, England @ home and the WI tour). Tendulkar played in only three of these series, but other than a 109 vs SL he didn't score at all. 06/07 Tendulkar has been the better batsman 'til now, although this isn't saying much because Sehwag is experiencing the biggest run drought of his Test career 'til date and Tendulkar's contribution wasn't exactly an outstanding one when IND toured SA Bear in mind that i didn't bother counting the two series vs Banglastan or the two series vs ZIM As of right now, it's 3-3 ie; a stalemate. This can change though, as '06/07 hasn't finished yet so both players have a chance to take "the lead", LOL. We'll revisit the thread once the ENG tour is over

[dial_100]

Shame on us yaar. A guy with tennis elbow is compared with others. He was not out of touch but he was injured most of the time out of International cricket thats why his performance cannot be compared with a guy who was quite in form and completely fit. Talk of today, SRT is fit and lets see who is good as off today.. Even bhajji did lot of good, so do you want to include him or what? he is ....crap bowler now so OUT HE GOES... IMO, Sehwag shouldnt even come closer to our team until he gets some form in the domestic games.... Gambo bhai....you rock man....keep it up...good work there mate...

[King]

All said and done both are struggling for form. Tendulkar has produced 2 hundreds in a row and hopefully he will show the same appetite for runs in England. Tendulkar usually scores runs in England so I would expect him to score one big one at least. Lest it will provide people a reality check of where he stands at this point in time in his career.

[Gambit]

Oh boy. Mr.Cheney is back with of his unintentional contradictions and witticisms. Here we go again.

Waste of effort from u really, trying to disprove something that i never claimed. I thought it was u who claimed SRT is a much better player in difficult conditions & that Sehwag was cr@p. My rebuttal wasnt that sehwag was great, but merely SRT was cr@p too.

Ahahahahah! After seeing the fruits of the application of your criterion to your darling and SRT, you are backing away? I don't blame you considering how badly Sehwag has been trounced in something you thought he would have been better. 14 single digits! :hysterical:

I already admitted that was a loose statement & that i actually meant beginning of 2003 as my time frame. Let me put this to rest, once for all. I made these statements to CC in a diff context. It was more of a subjective than objective comment. When i entered a debate with u, in my first or second post i did clarify i was talking beginning 2003 as the starting point for the debate. And u also did agree with that (so i thought), until the last two posts, when u have flip flopping as u discover that abandoning 2002 will make your hero become zero all of a sudden :hysterical:

I know your admitted your folly(only 1 out of a 100 in this thread but that's a start). I have always included 2002. Go back and check. Here is proof: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=79544&postcount=14 my comparison includes 176 and 193 from 2002. And what I wrote nearly 3-4 days ago still holds true:

Ok, you have conceded that Tendulkar does not run away against better opponents something that you categorically stated a little while ago. And your point about Sehwag being much much better than SRT since he made his debut has been proved to be entirely false. And I also like the way you shift goalposts. First you compared the two from the time Sehwag made his debut. Now it's the last 4 years. What next? Last 2 hours?

In the exact post that you responded to me, you stated this twice!

Gambit, i have been following both sehwag & Tendu's career closely in the last 5 years. Tendu's averages are very misleading as they are built on usually one or two (usually one big knock).

AND

As u can see in every key series that mattered it was Sehwag who stood out in the last 5 years.

Dancing and spinning and spinning and dancing round and round shifting post after post. That's Mister Bumper Cheney for you.:dancing:After having seen how ridiculous your 1st post statements now look in light of the 5 year window, you are slowly and quietly trying to only stick to 4 or maybe even a lesser number of years. :hysterical:

Eng 193, 92 WI 176, 117 all came in 2002, Flip flopper :hysterical: That makes it 2 tons & 3 50s. Oh did i mention 2 of those 3 50s came in the SAME GAME (in effect a double count), Holy, moly we dont have anything to compare

Oh so scoring twice in a game apparently doesn't count for Mr.Cheney because it makes his wonderboy's position even more untenable? :hysterical: How convenient! Another blatant attempt at goalpost changing! And let's forget 2002 as if never happened. Because if we didn't, it would make Mr.Gulab Jamun not appear to be SRT's daddy like Mr.Cheney claimed! Bottomline - Last 5 years, Sehwag is NOT clearly a better batsman than SRT like Mr. Bumper Cheney claims and SRT's performance is quite comparable to his AND Sehwag has failed clearly more often than SRT as demonstrated using Mr.Bumper Cheney's criterion! Do I hear Mr.Bumper Cheney saying "Hallelujah, I have seen the light! What was I thinking when I made that blasphemous statement?!" :musicus: You are welcome Dick