Don Bradman most over rated player in the cricketing history?

[zen]

http://stats.cricketworld.com/Seasons/index.html See the comman names between uni and county games @ around 1930

I think a better analysis would be why can't India produce quality fast bowlers in respectable quantity despite a huge increase in cricket playing population If Ind could produce Md Nissar and Amar Singh during Bradman's time, Kapil Dev in the 70s, Srinath in the 90s, then surlely we can produce a bunch of such quality bowlers with the rise in cricket playing population. what seems to have gone wrong? I mean the population is increasing so it should throw up a few quicks per your grand theory, no? Also wondering, how a tiny nation like Netherlands manages to reach WC finals 3 times in football but countries with much larger population haven't been able to to so And why BD with a larger population than countries like Australia and NZ, doesn't manage to be that competitive with them in cricket? :hmmmm:

[thongale]

Cant u use a judgement based on how far behind the wicket keeper is standing? how many slips in place? Or WK were Supermans too

2D media capturing 3D cation can play plenty of tricks and visual illusions. Film it using same technology and we'll compare them. Of course the number of slips observation I do agree.

[mishra]

2D media capturing 3D cation can play plenty of tricks and visual illusions. Film it using same technology and we'll compare them. Of course the number of slips observation I do agree.

Actually if you see them pics, camera angle from square of the wicket there is on one side a constant sized cricket pitch and on other side is wicket keeper.... I know the angle of camera will introduce some error but not sure error will be that big...

[zen]

Mishraji, you are talking as if the batsmen of that era played with today's protective gear To be greater than Tendulkar, do you want guys of that era to be facing Ambrose, Marshall, Holding and Roberts with the protective gear they had then :hysterical: Below: Nissar the guy in the picture is probably Ind's 2nd fastest bowler ever (after Srinath) from wiki:

Career Mohammed Nissar was drafted into the Indian team which toured England in 1932. He was a part of the side which contained players like CK Nayudu, the brothers Wazir Ali and Nazir Ali, and of course, his famous bowling partner, Amar Singh. Even today, Nissar's main claim to fame was of being the first man to take a wicket for India, and for being the most fastest pre-war bowler India have produced. Nissar's career kick-started right in his first match, as he, in the first ball of his second over, dismissed Herbert Sutcliffe for 3, knocking over Sutcliffe's stumps. Then, with the fifth ball of the very same over, he bowled the other opener, Percy Holmes.[2]. What made this fact extraordinary was that Holmes and Sutcliffe were involved in an opening stand of 555 for Yorkshire just ten days ago.[3]. In the course of his 26-over spell, Nissar scalped five wickets for 93 runs, as England were skittled for 259, a below-par score for a team that had looked much stronger on paper. In the second innings, Nissar bowled 18 overs and took a wicket, of Walter Robins, who was a victim of his in the first innings as well, for 42 runs. Overall, with a trike rate of 44, and with match figures of 6 for 135, Nissar gave a glimpse of other performances England should have watched out for when he played them. That was to be the only test match for India that year, but there were many other first-class matches on the tour, where Nissar grabbed 71 wickets at an average of 18.09. In the winter of 1935, when Jack Ryder's Australian XI toured India to play against Maharaja "Vizzy" Vizianagaram's Indian team. He made a mark there too, grabbing 32 wickets in 4 unofficial tests and 12 in 3 tests. Nissar's last test was against England in 1936, at the Oval.

[zen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinoo_Mankad Would you say Jadeja or Shastri are better than Vinoo Mankad, arguably the finest all-rounder that Ind has produced? PS from wiki:

Mankad's best performance was against England at Lord's in 1952. In the first innings he top-scored with 72. During England's first innings, he bowled 73 overs and took 5 wickets for 196 runs. In India's second innings in that Test match, he top-scored again with 184 runs out of India's total of 378. Though England won the game easily, Mankad's all-round performance salvaged India's pride in a series where they were heavily overmatched. Mankad was the first player in more than 30 years to score a 100 and take five wickets in the same Test and the first Indian to achieve this feat. As such, he is one of only three non-England 'away' players whose name appears on both batting and bowling honours boards at Lords. (The other two are Keith Miller and Sir Gary Sobers). Also memorable was his role earlier in the same year against England in Madras. He took 8/52 in England's first innings and 4/53 in the second helping India beat England for the very first time in a Test match. In 1956 he hit 231 against New Zealand at Chennai and together with Pankaj Roy established the world record opening partnership of 413 runs which stood for 52 years. His score was a Test record for India at the time and would remain so until it was broken in 1983 by Sunil Gavaskar.

[mishra]

I think a better analysis would be why can't India produce quality fast bowlers in respectable quantity despite a huge increase in cricket playing population If Ind could produce Md Nissar and Amar Singh during Bradman's time, Kapil Dev in the 70s, Srinath in the 90s, then surlely we can produce a bunch of such quality bowlers with the rise in cricket playing population. what seems to have gone wrong? I mean the population is increasing so it should throw up a few quicks per your grand theory, no?

Who are they? I am sure some ICFers are qualitatively comparable to them.... No offence, I wonder have you actually been to India? how much you know Indian (as In ones living n India)society? Distribution of talent is never lopsided. Its geo-political conditions which govern the growth of It. Check the bowling speed and number of pace bowlers which came and joined Team India post Dada era to that of pre Dada era. Once talented players are identified, then they are skilled based on facility, coaching medicines, money, opportunity. If IPL grows, I am definite that few years down the line there will be more number of pace bowlers coming every year.

Also wondering, how a tiny nation like Netherlands manages to reach WC finals 3 times in football but countries with much larger population haven't been able to to so

Because number of kids/parents taking football seriously is way more than whole of India or a nation like China.

And why BD with a larger population than countries like Australia and NZ, doesn't manage to be that competitive with them in cricket? :hmmmm:

Let me know if you still believe in genetic superiority theory..... Fact: During Bradmans era nobility used to play cricket, General Spectators( working class subjects/peasants) came to get a glimpse of nobility playing a game.

[mishra]

Rett , You need to read my previous posts too..... I dont think protective gear was actually that much a requirement... Your assumption that English bowlers were good enough to ball six bouncer in a row is hypothtical.... Forgetr fast bouncer. I aint sure they could bowl six slow bouncers in a row. They neither had strength,stamina,skill,talent,training to achieve such a feat.. Else it would have been written just like the Lindwalls gretness that he once bowled a bouncer which struck some English tail end batsman

[zen]

Who are they? I am sure some ICFers are qualitatively comparable to them....

OK, so you think some ICFers are comparable to Nissar and Amar Singh! PS refer to post #164

Because number of kids/parents taking football seriously is way more than whole of India or a nation like China.

So a dedicated population even though smaller in size can produce quality

Let me know if you still believe in genetic superiority theory..... Fact: During Bradmans era nobility used to play cricket, General Spectators( working class subjects/peasants) came to get a glimpse of nobility playing a game.

Is that suppose to imply that only poor people can play quality cricket .... also read your own statement wrt Holland

[zen]

Rett ' date=' You need to read my previous posts too..... I dont think protective gear was actually that much a requirement... Your assumption that English bowlers were good enough to ball six bouncer in a row is hypothtical.... Forgetr fast bouncer. I aint sure they could bowl six slow bouncers in a row. They neither had strength,stamina,skill,talent,training to achieve such a feat.. Else it would have been written just like the Lindwalls gretness that he once bowled a bouncer which struck some English tail end batsman[/quote'] Appears as if you haven't read abt bodyline .... and you don't need protective gear just to face bouncers, ever wondered why batsmen pad up even in nets? Per your grand theory, cricket played in that era was of mickey mouse level, would you rate Jadeja or Shastri > Vinoo Mankad, arguably the finest all-rounder Ind has produced?

[mishra]

OK, so you think some ICFers are comparable to Nissar and Amar Singh!

Yes.

So a dedicated population even though smaller in size can produce quality

Only if they population is large enough there could be some talent. Now that talent can only be nurtured to make skilled with proper training, coaching, incentives.

Is that suppose to imply that only poor people can play quality cricket .... also read your own statement wrt Holland

No, You find out how many nobles/elites are actually making it to internationals today?

[mishra]

Appears as if you haven't read abt bodyline .... and you don't need protective gear just to face bouncers, ever wondered why batsmen pad up even in nets? Per your grand theory, cricket played in that era was of mickey mouse level, would you rate Jadeja or Shastri > Vinoo Mankad, arguably the finest all-rounder Ind has produced?

I have also heard Alha...Hear them singing. You will start believing that Alha and Udal are best warriors in history of world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alha-Khand

[zen]

Yes. Only if they population is large enough there could be some talent. Now that talent can only be nurtured to make skilled with proper training, coaching, incentives. No, You find out how many nobles/elites are actually making it to internationals today?

Intresting observations .... appears as if you know a lot abt ICFers On one hand, Holland can produce international level footballers despite having small population (albeit decicated) and on the other hand, you need a large population Hmmm, so cricketers of that era i.e. Larwood, Jardine, Hammond, etc were all from elite families .... Not to forget the likes of Nissar, Naydu, Amar Singh, etc :hysterical:

[zen]

Let's summarize some of Mishraji's points: * Horsee riding and F1 are comparable in a sense that a horse racer of 15t century would naturally take to F1 (and not horse racing) in the 21st century (I guess, no one races horses now) * Some ICFers are comparable to Nissar and Amar Singh * Only the elite played cricket during Bradman's time. Hammond, Larwood, Jargine, Nissar, Amar Singh, Headley, etc were thus all elites .... if elites play cricket the quality automatically becomes poor * Holland produces great footballers despite having a smaller population through dedication but you need a large population to nurture talent * Protective gear was actually not that much a requirement in that era * Jadeja or Shastri > Mankad because for some reason there are ballads about Udal and Alah and we haven't heard of other warriors

[mishra]

Intresting observations .... appears as if you know a lot abt ICFers On one hand, Holland can produce international level footballers despite having small population (albeit decicated) and on the other hand, you need a large population Hmmm, so cricketers of that era i.e. Larwood, Jardine, Hammond, etc were all from elite families .... Not to forget the likes of Nissar, Naydu, Amar Singh, etc :hysterical:

Man population of Holland is 10,000.... Working class ones may have been allowed to the team in case to get some advantage.... But they were not allowed to take the wicket of Bradman or likes of him..... Else criminalised/chucked out.. :secret:

[zen]

Man population of Holland is 10,000.... Working class ones may have been allowed to the team in case to get some advantage.... But they were not allowed to take the wicket of Bradman or likes of him..... Else criminalised/chucked out.. :secret:

Oh Ok, so British working class were not allowed to take wkt of Bradman, an Australian they were playing against for ashes .... I guess, they were only allowed to bowl bodyline :dontknow:

[mishra]

Let's summarize some of Mishraji's points: * Horsee riding and F1 are comparable in a sense that a horse racer of 15t century would naturally take to F1 (and not horse racing) in the 21st century (I guess, no one races horses now) * Some ICFers are comparable to Nissar and Amar Singh * Only the elite played cricket during Bradman's time. Hammond, Larwood, Jargine, Nissar, Amar Singh, Headley, etc were thus all elites .... if elites play cricket the quality automatically becomes poor * Holland produces great footballers despite having a smaller population through dedication but you need a large population to nurture talent * Protective gear was actually not that much a requirement in that era * Jadeja or Shastri > Mankad because for some reason there are ballads about Udal and Alah and we haven't heard of other warriors

You can read a book and make your own summary..... :two_thumbs_up:

[mishra]

Oh Ok' date=' so British working class were not allowed to take wkt of Bradman, an Australian they were playing against for ashes .... I guess, they were only allowed to bowl bodyline :dontknow:[/quote'] Get ur facts right...

[zen]

Get ur facts right...

which is:

Working class ones may have been allowed to the team in case to get some advantage.... But they were not allowed to take the wicket of Bradman or likes of him..... Else criminalised/chucked out..

:hatsoff:

[mishra]

which is: :hatsoff:

MCC set standards immediately after that series....... i.e Bradman is a Hero Also. Working Class... Aukat mein raho

[zen]

MCC set standards immediately after that series....... i.e Bradman is a Hero

So MCC from Eng, a rival of Australia, proclaimed Bradman, an Australian, as a hero .... what a sham :hitler: