The Outsider Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 Too much emphasis on stats to analyze players in such an early stage of their careers. Can't rely on stats to judge players in their first few years of international cricket. I'll try to give me non stats take on them. The biggest dissappointments are Rohit, Yusuf, Irfan, Karthik and Uthappa Rohit is a proper, long term batsman. He has all the strokes and a lot of time to play them. He doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as the others above. He will surely go on to play test cricket for India with some success. That's not saying his game is perfect - he doesn't come forward enough while driving and is a bit slow to get to the pitch of the ball. Yusuf is a lower order hitter, not a proper batsman. His utility in the side is only if he can improve his bowling to an extent where he can deliver 6-7 overs on a consistent basis. In the absence of Yuvraj, he needs to provide a solid 5th bowler option. As for test cricket, forget about it. Not sure why you added Irfan there. He is not a front line batsman and the only way he can play is as a third seam bowler batting at number 7 if the team decides to go in with 5 bowlers which is seldom if never the case with India. Karthik is a good batsman. Problem with him is that he does not have the mindset of a top order batsman - he will get starts and 40s and 50s, but does not have the temperament to play the long innings required from a top order batsman. However, his versatility as a batsman (can open as well as bat in the middle order) and his keeping makes him an attractive option to carry as a reserve player on overseas tour where he can be a good stop gap for a number of situations. Uthappa is a waste. Obviously can never play test cricket and even in ODIs can play at best as a number 7 slogger who comes in the last 10-12 overs. Doubt he can keep properly for 50 overs to be a viable backup wicketkeeper either. The surprise element is Sir Jadeja and Parthiv having the same or better avg than Rohit Sharma Parthiv is the same as Karthik - doesn't have the mindset of a proper top order batsman. He won't give you the big scores and is a worse keeper than Karthik, and he can't bat in the middle order in ODIs. Karthik should always be chosen ahead of him. Jadeja's average obviously flatters him. He is a nervous wreck at the center and has never been able to play a situational game. However, he is still very young and has the time to develop his game. Was perhaps introduced to international cricket too early in our quest for an all rounder. Badri I think has wasted a big oppurtunity and it will be very hard for him to get back. Looking at his S/R it appears the man was desperately trying to get set and play a proper inngs. This is the same problem Rahul Dravid had early in his career. That's completely misreading the reality based on stats. Badrinath is nothing like Dravid - don't know how this comparison has gained popularity on ICF. Dravid's problem was not able to find the gaps and unable to drop the ball softly to rotate strike. Badrinath is simply not adept - he does not have any proper timed strokes in front of the wicket, can't manipulate the ball in the gaps using his wrists, is terrible against the short ball, and invariably ends up going for high risk strokes to improve the run rate. M Vijay is still young and can get back. Vijay doesn't have a versatile enough game for ODIs yet, but if he does well in tests he can improve in ODIs by adding more strokes and the ability to hit the gaps more often. At the moment, he puts the team under pressure with too many dot balls and ends up taking needless risks as a result. I feel Kohli, Pujara, Rahane, and Sharma will be our future middle order.
Academite Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 Too much emphasis on stats to analyze players in such an early stage of their careers. Can't rely on stats to judge players in their first few years of international cricket. I'll try to give me non stats take on them. Rohit is a proper, long term batsman. He has all the strokes and a lot of time to play them. He doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as the others above. He will surely go on to play test cricket for India with some success. That's not saying his game is perfect - he doesn't come forward enough while driving and is a bit slow to get to the pitch of the ball. Yusuf is a lower order hitter, not a proper batsman. His utility in the side is only if he can improve his bowling to an extent where he can deliver 6-7 overs on a consistent basis. In the absence of Yuvraj, he needs to provide a solid 5th bowler option. As for test cricket, forget about it. Not sure why you added Irfan there. He is not a front line batsman and the only way he can play is as a third seam bowler batting at number 7 if the team decides to go in with 5 bowlers which is seldom if never the case with India. Karthik is a good batsman. Problem with him is that he does not have the mindset of a top order batsman - he will get starts and 40s and 50s, but does not have the temperament to play the long innings required from a top order batsman. However, his versatility as a batsman (can open as well as bat in the middle order) and his keeping makes him an attractive option to carry as a reserve player on overseas tour where he can be a good stop gap for a number of situations. Uthappa is a waste. Obviously can never play test cricket and even in ODIs can play at best as a number 7 slogger who comes in the last 10-12 overs. Doubt he can keep properly for 50 overs to be a viable backup wicketkeeper either. Parthiv is the same as Karthik - doesn't have the mindset of a proper top order batsman. He won't give you the big scores and is a worse keeper than Karthik, and he can't bat in the middle order in ODIs. Karthik should always be chosen ahead of him. Jadeja's average obviously flatters him. He is a nervous wreck at the center and has never been able to play a situational game. However, he is still very young and has the time to develop his game. Was perhaps introduced to international cricket too early in our quest for an all rounder. That's completely misreading the reality based on stats. Badrinath is nothing like Dravid - don't know how this comparison has gained popularity on ICF. Dravid's problem was not able to find the gaps and unable to drop the ball softly to rotate strike. Badrinath is simply not adept - he does not have any proper timed strokes in front of the wicket, can't manipulate the ball in the gaps using his wrists, is terrible against the short ball, and invariably ends up going for high risk strokes to improve the run rate. Vijay doesn't have a versatile enough game for ODIs yet, but if he does well in tests he can improve in ODIs by adding more strokes and the ability to hit the gaps more often. At the moment, he puts the team under pressure with too many dot balls and ends up taking needless risks as a result. I feel Kohli, Pujara, Rahane, and Sharma will be our future middle order. Excellent Post. I especially agree with the last sentence
Chandan Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I think Shwetabh is right. Rohit looked vastly improved this tour, fitness as well as temperament wise. And if he shows the determination,as he has shown on this tour to WI, there is no reason why he can't improve on his earlier mediocre stats as there is no shortage of ability which unfortunately is not true for Badrinath. The poor guy can't even face bowlers like Russel and Roach and can't bat on any pitch which has bounce. He can't play the shots in V and just poking and edging can't fetch an international career. Dravid could face good bowlers, could play straight shots, was wristy---everything. There is absolutely no comparison.
gaurav92 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I think Shwetabh is right. Rohit looked vastly improved this tour, fitness as well as temperament wise. And if he shows the determination, there is no reason why he can't improve on his earlier mediocre stats as there is no shortage of ability which unfortunately is not true for Badrinath. The poor guy can't even face bowlers like Russel and Roach and can't bat on any pitch which has bounce. He can't play the shots in V and just poking and edging can't fetch an international career. Dravid could face good bowlers, could play straight shots, was wristy---everything. There is absolutely no comparison. Agree 100% Kohli has a strong bottom hand grip and he hits the ball hard, he may be exposed in English conditions in Tests, but on bouncy tracks, I think he should do well.
Mariyam Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 BossBhai: Props for the effort you taken. Obviously computing and laying out all this takes a lot of time. But I tend to go with The Outsider's comment on why we shouldn't compare across batting positions. I have a suggestion: Why don't you split the batsmen for whom you have computed the averages into Opener to 2 down, 3 down to 5 down, and the rest. These are my arbitrary groupings. You can of course make more relevant ones. And in these groupings rank people by those who fall in the top 10%ile of average runs scored in each category. That way we can know who excels in a given category. And if you have the time, you can also do this "from 5 years" of debut exercise for all Indian players say from the 90s and try and see at what percentile level the debutants from the last 5 years stand. Just a suggestion.
Chandan Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 BossBhai: Props for the effort you taken. Obviously computing and laying out all this takes a lot of time. But I tend to go with The Outsider's comment on why we shouldn't compare across batting positions. I have a suggestion: Why don't you split the batsmen for whom you have computed the averages into Opener to 2 down, 3 down to 5 down, and the rest. These are my arbitrary groupings. You can of course make more relevant ones. And in these groupings rank people by those who fall in the top 10%ile of average runs scored in each category. That way we can know who excels in a given category. And if you have the time, you can also do this "from 5 years" of debut exercise for all Indian players say from the 90s and try and see at what percentile level the debutants from the last 5 years stand. Just a suggestion. Don't think all that is needed, Mariyam. We've seen all these batsmen debut and play most of the matches. The stats was just to get the rough idea of numbers. I think we'd like to see Rahane on the international scene now, facing the world class bowlers on different pitches in tough situations now to jugde him if he can be one of our future middle order batman or not. Rayudu is another one, who I'd like to be given chance in ODI. Badrinath, Uthappa, Parthiv etc are done and dusted now. Even Dhawan and Tiwari are not likely to get more chances now. Pujara needs to get more exposure to get ready as quickly as possibly and these freak injuries are only setting him back.
Karan114 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 rohit and virat are the best young bats in india but i feel yousuf should be given chance up the order , i feel rahane is probably not int class because if he were he would have got chance by now since he is from mumbai And you think S Badrinath and Dhawan are international class? Rahane actually has an FC hundred against the Australian Test attack last year.
Chandan Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 rohit and virat are the best young bats in india but i feel yousuf should be given chance up the order , i feel rahane is probably not int class because if he were he would have got chance by now since he is from mumbai Why should Pathan be given chance to bat up the order? He was given this chance during the world cup in place of the in form batsman Kohli, and he blew it. So why would he be given this opportunity again? Now he seems to have lost chance to bat anywhere in the XI.
The Outsider Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Once a player has played 30-40 odis like most of these guys have you know what you are getting. Their stats will not change that much. People like SRT are exceptions. Don't agree at all. 30-40 ODIs these days is a span of 2-3 years even for fringe players who are not regulars. That period of time is not enough for most players to develop there game completely. It is however sufficient to see whether the batsman has something to work with or not. I don't think so. Having time to play the strokes is one of those useless traits that you can never measure. It also is meaningless. The greatest example is Inzi mian. We are told how the guy has this "Quality" in truckloads and that it is what separated him from the rest. We all now know that it meant jack. Somone like Dravid who obviously did not have this quality went ahead and forged a ODI + Test career that is far more succesfull than Inzi. To me the only criteria that should matter is how many times a batsman hits the ball from the middle of the bat. Comming back to Rohit he simply lacks temperment and his work ethics plus fitness levels leave a lot to be desired. He will get found out in Test matches. Time will tell. For all the ribbing Inzamam has gotten from us, he was a very good batsman specially in ODIs. It all depends on the kind of expectations you are setting from the incoming players. I would happily take someone averaging 50 in tests and 40 in ODIs with an improved record against the top teams. Moreover, getting to the level of Dravid and Laxman is not just about abilities. Inzamam was never one to bother much about work ethics, if Rohit can avoid that trait there is no reason that he cannot emulate or better Inzamam. Agreed. Badri is a broke mans Dravid. But his problems are of the same nature to what Dravid had only much worse. He is one of those old skool batsman that need to spend time at the wicket and they think runs will automatically flow. It doesn't work like that in the ODIs. Perhaps Manjrekar would have been a better comparison. But it is also slightly harsh on him as he has had only few chances given. If Rohit was given 60 odd ODIs Badri surely deserved a bit more. ohh well. You are being too charitable to Badrinath once again - he is not even in the Manjrekar league. More like Ajay Sharma or the plethora of mediocrity England dished out in test batting during the 90s and early 00s like Crawley. Manjrekar has a test hundred at Barbados against Walsh, Marshall, Bishop, and Ambrose. He also has centuries against Imran, Akram, and Waqar. His problem was one of temperament. Badrinath is a technical nightmare - I have seen him bat against Lee, Johnson, Steyn and he simply cannot get the ball off the square once the bowling speed goes beyond 140.
ch1234 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 You are being too charitable to Badrinath once again - he is not even in the Manjrekar league. More like Ajay Sharma or the plethora of mediocrity England dished out in test batting during the 90s and early 00s like Crawley. Manjrekar has a test hundred at Barbados against Walsh, Marshall, Bishop, and Ambrose. He also has centuries against Imran, Akram, and Waqar. His problem was one of temperament. Badrinath is a technical nightmare - I have seen him bat against Lee, Johnson, Steyn and he simply cannot get the ball off the square once the bowling speed goes beyond 140. Badri cant be compared to Manjrekar.. He was a very sound technician.. Remember that 1989 series in Pakistan where Manjrekar scored 100s after 100s against Imran, Wasim and Waqar.. ANd I dont think Badri can do it that sort.. Badri is as good as Mohammed Wasim of Pakistan (the one who comes to my mind now)..
The Outsider Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 @karan rahane scoring 100s against aus is not an exception other guys have also done it, badri also got runs against touring/a sides, infact he holds a record with venugopal rao of achieving highest 4th inngs runs chased against eng a. He has failed in every single high profile FC match over the last few years. Failed against South Africa in tests, failed in 2009 Irani trophy, failed in BP XI match against Australia, failed in 2008 Irani trophy, failed against Australia A in 2008, failed in 2007 Irani trophy.
saneindian Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 He has failed in every single high profile FC match over the last few years. Failed against South Africa in tests' date=' failed in 2009 Irani trophy, failed in BP XI match against Australia, failed in 2008 Irani trophy, failed against Australia A in 2008, failed in 2007 Irani trophy.[/quote'] All those were failures before selection for SA tests. He failed there again and was promptly dropped from the squad. Since then though he has done well in the high profile FC matches (none against any international side though). 94 and 61 in the Irani Trophy 2010-11, 175* in the Ranji semis when no one else made a 50 for his side, 136 in the final of the Duleep Trophy. But the ODI failures (and his struggles against short balls) may work against him though there may still be a chance for him to play in the WI tests as he is the only reserve middle order batsman in the side. If at all that opportunity comes his way, will be the final chance to prove himself. Grab it or forget it.
The Outsider Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 All those were failures before selection for SA tests. He failed there again and was promptly dropped from the squad. Since then though he has done well in the high profile FC matches (none against any international side though). 94 and 61 in the Irani Trophy 2010-11, 175* in the Ranji semis when no one else made a 50 for his side, 136 in the final of the Duleep Trophy. I had copy/pasted from an earlier post of mine. But regardless, none of these matches had anywhere close to an international quality attack. Even if he scores substantially against an attack with two or more international level bowlers it would be something to consider. Can't you guys see how his limitations as an international quality batsman, specially in the Indian side which is traditionally a strong batting unit?
Cricketics Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 It's hard to find a batsman these days who can have as consistent and strong start to his career as Dravid had. He kept scoring 80s and 90s and eventually on the most toughest of tours to South Africa, he broke the jinx of his century and went to get get his maiden test hunded. He was the lone warrior with 148 and 81. I haven't seen any new youngster do that in past decade. If I feel there is someone who can match or come close to this, I think it has to be Virat Kohli. His stats say that he is going to produce something special down the line for India. With all the talk of Rohit being one for the future, he hasn't really done enough yet to be honest. He has to really, score score and just score to prove us that he can really survive in Int'l cricket. He might have all the shots, but if he doesn't bat with great tempermant, he might have a Michael Vaughan style Career. .
saneindian Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I had copy/pasted from an earlier post of mine. But regardless, none of these matches had anywhere close to an international quality attack. Even if he scores substantially against an attack with two or more international level bowlers it would be something to consider. Can't you guys see how his limitations as an international quality batsman, specially in the Indian side which is traditionally a strong batting unit? Yes, cannot disagree with what you have said. It's tough to see guys like him struggle at international level. Have given it all for that elusive India spot and falter just when it matters the most. Thats why I said, if at all, he gets a chance during the test series, could well be playing for his international career. And he will have no right to complain afterwards.
Chandan Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 rahane scoring 100s against aus is not an exception other guys have also done it, badri also got runs against touring/a sides, infact he holds a record with venugopal rao of achieving highest 4th inngs runs chased against eng a. although badri looked out of depth in wi he deserved his chance. you may say the same thing about rahane that he too deserves his chance but what i have seen of rahane he has looked inferior to badri in fc level @chandan did yusuf got to bat in the first 20 ovrs in wc ? most matches i have seen yousuf hardly gets 10 ovrs to bat , i think he can be very good in odi since he seems physically and mentally strong , the 2 100s he scored were exceptional knocks ,it would be a tragedy if we waste him Oh yes. Yusuf did get chance to bat in first 10 overs when he came at one down again Holland. And what did he do? Got out in 10 balls! Sorry. He is a slogger and doesn't deserve any more chance. And against which touring side had Badri hit a ton? As far as I know, he has failed in every BP XI vs touring side match.
King Tendulkar Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Too much emphasis on stats to analyze players in such an early stage of their careers. Can't rely on stats to judge players in their first few years of international cricket. . This is what I have been saying for ages. We seem stat obssessed and no one wants to use the cricket eye, or frankly many dont have it. Thus a very young talented player comes in, clearly has what it takes. But naturally fails a bit then has lynch mob after him. What they dont realise is that failure is part and parcel of the learning, just like ZK, Gambhir and now Rohit have done(all had lynch mobs after them) I mean stats are relevant at times. But I hate statements like for Badrinath eg " He has earnt his chance"!!!!! No he hasnt, this is not a democracy, just cos some guy churns it day in day out in Ranji, that does not mean he can step up to international level. It could mean he works hard and puts in effort, even in mundane moments. That does not mean he has star quality. I mean some great players can not psyche themselves for mundane FC stuff but get them playing for their country and they wake up. This particularly applies to bowlers and selectors make goof ups. Look at Vinny Kumar, good solid stats but clearly not good enough for international level. Did selectors even try and use cricket eye. A fella like RP will not put in the effort for Ranji but put him in India shirt and he has way more to offer at top level then solid pros like Kumar. Players like Yadav and aaron hace pace but no stats... so what pick them, they can be groomed and have serious potential to deliver at international level if giving time and chances. They have pace, so pick them. It may take a few years but they become bowlers we want
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