Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[Ultimate_Game]

I can't quite believe you folks are comparing Kapil Dev and Sachin Tendulkar :winky: One is a batsman (no offence meant to Tendulkar's bowling skills) and the other is a bowling all-rounder. How can cricket ever be one man army? There's 11 folks playing for a team right? Even if you score a hundred, that is not enough to win a game unless the rest also contribute, bowlers take wickets and catches are taken yeah? Vice versa for bowlers as well.

It looks like they are comparing the support cast the two got and in this case I have to say Kapil had a tougher task. He had the likes of Madan Lal and Roger Binny for support and came on to the scene where Gavaskar was used as an opening bowler to take out the shine off the ball so that the spin quartet could take over :haha:

[CSK Fan]

Indeed. The same set of people would probably be comparing why Kapil was a better all-rounder than Hadlee or Imran but compare him to SRT and suddenly Balwinder Sandhu becomes a world beater partner. That being said I loved the way Sardarji played, tonked Imran straight for six in his first test and took out Greenidge with a beauty at Lords.:hatsoff:

I think the only memory I have of him (Sandhu) is that match we lost by 1 run(or was that a tie?)

[maniac]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=awards_match;result=1;spanmax1=31+Dec+1999;spanmin1=1+jan+1990;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=allround;view=awards Sachin outperformed all of his contemporaries nearly 30% of the time when India won a game in his presence during the 90's. I am not even counting the number of times he was let down by his team mates,So I am not even considering lost games...Clearly anyone watching in the 90's saw Sachin being let down by his so called eqvilalent support staff and not vice-versa Azhar who played the next highest number of games at 106 was a match winner at a whopping 10%. Even V.Bharadwaj and S.Ramesh won 1 mom's each during this time...Hope now people don't come up with an argument saying that since they had a one off performance they should be considered as Sachin's support staff.

[maniac]

Tendulkar's support had batting averages in the 45-50 range which were genuine world class averages, specially in the 90s when only 3 batsmen averaged 50+. Kapil's support had bowling averages of 35+ which are decidedly poor bowling averages regardless the era. The question here is not whether Tendulkar's batting is better than Kapil's bowling or vice versa. The question is whose support was better. Even Sir_Afridi would be able to understand that batting averages of 45-50 in the 90s were better than bowling averages of 35+, but I don't expect Tendulkar fan boys to understand this simple thing.

Kapil was a definetely a one-man army when it came to bowling but I am sure he had no advantage of having the world's best batsman at the time at his peak.

[maniac]

^ I was and still am a big Kapil fan but all I am saying is the team quality that Kapil had was better than Sachin's in the early to mid-90's

[maniac]

Yup. The support cast of Kapil Dev..namely Shivlal Yadav, Dileep Doshi, Maninder Singh, Ravi Shastri, Balwinder Singh Sandhu, Madan Lal, Chetan Sharma, Roger Binny etc. Was as good as the support cast for SRT namely Azhar, Manjrekar, Kambli, Jadeja, Sidhu, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag, VVS. Morons.

Once again Kapil was a one-man band with the ball back in the day ,but he had another champion player carrying the team with the bat in Sunny. People need to be reminded of the days when we used Srinath and Mongia to up the scoring because we did not have too may quick scorers once Sachin was out.Azhar was capable but how consistent was he in doing so?

[Lurker]

Once again Kapil was a one-man band with the ball back in the day ,but he had another champion player carrying the team with the bat in Sunny.

Oh you don't have to remind me. Just a day back I was explaining to another poster how 80s Indian team was pretty formidable. We were just up against teams who wer lot more competitive. Indian batting was pretty decent in 80s, our bowling sucked and Kapil was the lone plough. However if you are suggesting that Kapil's effort or responsibility in bowling was akin to SRT in batting then you are simply being dishonest about it. More so since you seem to come across as a decent fan who has seen both eras actually.

People need to be reminded of the days when we used Srinath and Mongia to up the scoring because we did not have too may quick scorers once Sachin was out.Azhar was capable but how consistent was he in doing so?

Oh come on dude. Even Warne was sent in as a pinch hitter when Aussies were world champions.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[maniac]

This comparison is a non-starter as there exists no comparison between a bowling avg of 30 and a batting avg of 58 to be able to position them as leaders in the same right in their disciplines. FFS during the 80s we won just 11 tests( out of 80 ) with Kapil around ... how does that even qualify him as a lone ranger or a one man show when you are treating him as a Strike Bowler ? There was hardly any Show worth speaking of as far as bowling is concerned. And you are comparing that with what Tendulkar did that saw him Average 58 ? And yeah Even Sir_Afridi - the "Oracle" of Cricket Gyan - will tell you that a bowling avg of 30 will not win many tests for your side. That Right there disqualifies Kapil as having run any show. Yes he was the top dog in bowling but that only tells us how dire our bowling was. Kapils bowling contributions are comparable to Azhar and Dravids batting contributions at best as far as winning matches is concerned. Whereas Tendulkar avg of 58 is the very best in the world for the 90s and no one in the Indian side is remotely close to him. Dravid the closest has played less than half the no.of tests as SRT. I wont even bother getting into the ODIs. They are hilarious. You have a better case if you argue based on Kapil the complete All rounder which is what he is better renowned for. Anyhow here's Kapil in the 80s http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax2=31+Dec+1989;spanmin2=01+Jan+1980;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling And here is SRT in the 90s http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=2000;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=31+Dec+1999;spanmin1=01+Jan+1990;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting One is at the very top of the WORLD charts with a considerable difference between him and the next best and you are trying to tell me that Kapils bowling contribution was worth the same ?

As you know from the previous posts i have had ...I beleive Sachin is the greatest cricketer ever but I don't agree with you on your analysis of proving Kapil's contribuiton as not so significant. If there was a pedestal Kapil would be 2nd to Sachin in terms of the greatest cricketer we have ever produced.It is unfair of you of just bringing up Kapil's bowling stats as that man played some incredible knocks as well as to singlehandedly win games for India. If we had Kapil in our team playing the way he did with both bat and ball at his peak during Sachin's rise to goddom in the 90's then there would be a close debate of whose contributions were more significant. Kapil's mistake was he continued even after he was past his prime and had a peak obviously much lesser than SRT but no way we can discredit Kapil as being more important than infact SMG in the 80's. On an unrelated note please look at my sig...which is a true story of what the masses thought about Kapil back in the day.I was born in 1980 and growing up to me Kapil was what SRT is now to a lot of kids but obviously I watched more or infact the whole career of SRT which makes me states with conviction that he was the greatest cricketer ever. There is no doubt that Kapil was a once in a lifetime talent and it hurts when he is pulled down by his own countrymen

[maniac]

Kapil never tampered the ball, never played in an all conquering team,bowled most of his career on dustbowls,was one of the most exciting hitters of his time,did not have adequate bowling partners,captained a team to a wc win,was one of the best fielders in his side,batted at no.6 which today is a spot for specialist batsmen. I can reason as to why Sachin's contribution outweighs this(I have to mention this clearly as BB might get after me again) but I personally rate Kapil more than Imran,Botham and Hadlee when it comes to total package. Oh going back to this thread yes I rate Kapil better than Richards in terms of overall value to their team.This should put an end to this already derailed thread and maybe inspire someone to open a new one.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Raghav_12]

Yeah' date=' applying Raghav's superlative 'logic' to the last 5 years word for word [b']it turned out that Dhoni has been a one man army.

No, It did not. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1541901&postcount=342 Outy, In this post I had cleraly mentioned why my logic can not be applied in Dhoni's case. You did not reply to that post, instead preferred to (mis)use my loic to extend your own arguments :cantstop:

[Raghav_12]

I wonder why Sachin fanboys are being projected as Kapil haters? I believe that Sachin was more or less one man army for good part of late 90's in ODI's. But I do believe that Kapil was also one man army in bowling for good part of 80's, and IMHO to an extent greater than Sachin. Kapil's being one man army is the reason he is counted among the best of the world, though his bowling stats were not exactly in top class at world level.

[Raghav_12]

Here is Kapil's support cast in the 80s - only a fan boy can say Tendulkar was anywhere close to a one man army compared to Kapil : http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=50;qualval1=wickets;spanmax2=31+Dec+1989;spanmin2=01+Jan+1980;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

Going by that logic Zaheer has been greater "one man army" for Indian cricket than what Kapil ever was . http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=30;qualval2=wickets;spanmax1=29+Jun+2011;spanmin1=29+Jun+2006;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling and Dale Steyn even bigger for his SA team. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=30;qualval2=wickets;spanmax1=29+Jun+2011;spanmin1=29+Jun+2006;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=bowling and no need to dig stats to prove how big "one man army Murali has been. Moral of the story is that certain concepts can not be understood and explained based on the stats. Kapil carried India's bowling on soldiers for good amount of time and Sachin carried India's batting for long.

[mishra]

Hey. Why this Siiiir Phootauval.... We all know before kapil we were toothless as bowling unit. Probably Roger Binny was only one who actually opponent really considered while planning out. Binny is the unsung Hero of India. That doesnt mean that we start comparing Binny with Kapil, Kapil with Prabhakar, Prabhakar with Srinath, Srinath with Zaheer.... Sorry forgot to add Agarkar,Chetan Sharma..... We love our Sachin. Reason being, look at my signature he he... It doesnt says he is one man army or he is a bowler....

[CasualVisitor]

If I need someone who can be relied upon as a batsman then it is SRT and if I need someone to pull off next-to-impossible feats then it is SRT ;)

[The Outsider]

This comparison is a non-starter as there exists no comparison between a bowling avg of 30 and a batting avg of 58 to be able to position them as leaders in the same right in their disciplines. FFS during the 80s we won just 11 tests( out of 80 ) with Kapil around ... how does that even qualify him as a lone ranger or a one man show when you are treating him as a Strike Bowler ? There was hardly any Show worth speaking of as far as bowling is concerned. And you are comparing that with what Tendulkar did that saw him Average 58 ? And yeah Even Sir_Afridi - the "Oracle" of Cricket Gyan - will tell you that a bowling avg of 30 will not win many tests for your side. That Right there disqualifies Kapil as having run any show. Yes he was the top dog in bowling but that only tells us how dire our bowling was. Kapils bowling contributions are comparable to Azhar and Dravids batting contributions at best as far as winning matches is concerned. Whereas Tendulkar avg of 58 is the very best in the world for the 90s and no one in the Indian side is remotely close to him. Dravid the closest has played less than half the no.of tests as SRT. I wont even bother getting into the ODIs. They are hilarious. You have a better case if you argue based on Kapil the complete All rounder which is what he is better renowned for. Anyhow here's Kapil in the 80s http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax2=31+Dec+1989;spanmin2=01+Jan+1980;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling And here is SRT in the 90s http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=2000;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=31+Dec+1999;spanmin1=01+Jan+1990;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting One is at the very top of the WORLD charts with a considerable difference between him and the next best and you are trying to tell me that Kapils bowling contribution was worth the same ?

All irrelevant - the comparison is not between Tendulkar and Kapil, but between the support players they had.

[The Outsider]

No, It did not. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1541901&postcount=342 Outy, In this post I had cleraly mentioned why my logic can not be applied in Dhoni's case. You did not reply to that post, instead preferred to (mis)use my loic to extend your own arguments :cantstop:

You added those caveats once you realized how absurd your analysis of picking matches won/lost is that even someone from one of the best batting units can come out to be a one man army based on them. You 'analysis' is a classic case of starting with a preconceived notion, finding 'stats' to make it sound plausible, and when shown the absurdity of the 'stats' keep adding caveats to them.

[The Outsider]

Going by that logic Zaheer has been greater "one man army" for Indian cricket than what Kapil ever was . http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=30;qualval2=wickets;spanmax1=29+Jun+2011;spanmin1=29+Jun+2006;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

How is he a greater one man army than Kapil - I see Kumble, Harbhajan, Sreesanth, Ishant having averages in the 30-35 range.

and Dale Steyn even bigger for his SA team. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=30;qualval2=wickets;spanmax1=29+Jun+2011;spanmin1=29+Jun+2006;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=bowling

How? Morkel, Ntini, and Kallis have very acceptable bowling figures even though in the case of Kallis the wickets per match ratio is lower for obvious reasons.

and no need to dig stats to prove how big "one man army Murali has been.

And Murali has been a one man army in the absence of Vaas - you can see the effects of his retirement in the fact that Sri Lanka are yet to win a test since and are struggling to bowl sides out.

Moral of the story is that certain concepts can not be understood and explained based on the stats. Kapil carried India's bowling on soldiers for good amount of time and Sachin carried India's batting for long.

Only fan boys can rubbish the achievements of players like Azhar, Dravid, Ganguly, Sidhu (in tests and ODIs) and Jadeja (in ODIs). Name one bowler who Kapil bowled with in the 80s who was in the class of these batsmen - on the other hand Tendulkar had at least 2 of these in the line up, on occasions more during the 90s.

[Raghav_12]

You added those caveats once you realized how absurd your analysis of picking matches won/lost is that even someone from one of the best batting units can come out to be a one man army based on them. You 'analysis' is a classic case of starting with a preconceived notion' date=' finding 'stats' to make it sound plausible, and when shown the absurdity of the 'stats' keep adding caveats to them.[/quote'] No my analysis wasn't absurd. Your example of Dhoni has just one similarity with my analysis and that was batsman who has highest averages in matches won, doesn't have highest average in matches lost. I agree on that count, my analysis puts both Dhoni and Sachin on same plateform. But there were more aspects of my analysis which I had clearly mentioned in my another post (which you had replied with accusation of me having an agenda).