Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 This is a three-way race...Malcolm Marshall, Curtly Ambrose, and Glenn Mcgrath....rank them at whatever number you want first to third...no one can call you wrong...and please do not ask for stats or logic.... These bowlers are beyond logic and stats....beyond comparable to others.... and why are they beyond comparable to others?
Chandan Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 and why are they beyond comparable to others? I suppose you'd love these two articles here which was written here on ICF: The Greatest Bowler of Them All-Part I The Greatest Bowler of Them All (Part 2) Read and marvel at the writing. I still miss some of the gems which these guys used to put up for ICF those days.
Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 I suppose you'd love these two articles here which was written here on ICF: The Greatest Bowler of Them All-Part I The Greatest Bowler of Them All (Part 2) Read and marvel at the writing. I still miss some of the gems which these guys used to put up for ICF those days. Going by those articles and the stats put forth therein, Mcgrath seems to be the front runner for the title of the world's best ever paceman :hatsoff:
Chandan Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Chandan, Why would I want to take all the trouble to come up with material that can make a stats article when idiots who cant understand what is being said get bent out of shape and start hurling muck ? And then the mods also join in and you and other mods sit and watch silently as though nothing is happening ? One of these days I'am going to convince Doc to delete all those articles. Not worth it. Cant believe I spent all those hours on them. Don't be silly Boss. They are just gems. Hope you guys stop being sarcastic in the various threads and come up with articles like these. Which was the article which had concluded that 90s was the era of the meanest bowlers? Those articlea were a delight to read.
rkt.india Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Chandan, Why would I want to take all the trouble to come up with material that can make a stats article when idiots who cant understand what is being said get bent out of shape and start hurling muck ? And then the mods also join in and you and other mods sit and watch silently as though nothing is happening ? One of these days I'am going to convince Doc to delete all those articles. Not worth it. Cant believe I spent all those hours on them. Sir ji...there will always be difference of opinions. You cannot make everyone happy. Every one has a view. Some will agree with you, some not. It does not mean, you change your perception if you think it is right. You wrote it because you liked it for your satisfaction. I do not think you wrote it for others. You did it for your passion and wanted that others read and give their opinions. They did give opinions, some agreed, but they all are not forced to agree with you. That is it...
rkt.india Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Nobody is asking anyone to agree with me. All that is being asked is to not start hurling insults and put downs and generally being puerile the moment they think they have found a flaw ( some just simply don't like stats so they will jump in no matter what ) and the ***in mods sit and watch. Ok...that is what happens in discussions like this..most often..:((
Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 I thought the Topic is Allan Donald or Glenn Mcgrath??!! Those are the 2 bowlers I picked to be the best ever... But it seems a few West indian, a New Zealander and a Pakistani could also be thrown into the ring as the best ever... But unfortunately other than personal opinions no one has able to come out with anything definite, barring the old articles of Dhondy
Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 Chandan, Why would I want to take all the trouble to come up with material that can make a stats article when idiots who cant understand what is being said get bent out of shape and start hurling muck ? And then the mods also join in and you and other mods sit and watch silently as though nothing is happening ? One of these days I'am going to convince Doc to delete all those articles. Not worth it. Cant believe I spent all those hours on them. That would be tragic :((
Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 At their peak' date=' Donald , easy choice.[/quote'] Why?
rkt.india Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Those are the 2 bowlers I picked to be the best ever... But it seems a few West indian, a New Zealander and a Pakistani could also be thrown into the ring as the best ever... But unfortunately other than personal opinions no one has able to come out with anything definite, barring the old articles of Dhondy No one can come up with better than that:two_thumbs_up:
ravishingravi Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 It is not so difficult. Stat gurus and a prejudiced mind will get u through
Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 It is not so difficult. Stat gurus and a prejudiced mind will get u through What about your prejudiced mind? Who does it choose as the best pace bowlers ever?
ravishingravi Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 And a generous supply of :Hmmm: . Just so that no one assumes that you are not apllying your mind.
Roshanrocks Posted June 23, 2011 Author Posted June 23, 2011 And a generous supply of :Hmmm: . Just so that no one assumes that you are not apllying your mind. and what would the use of each of these smileys mean? ----> :hysterical: B-> :giggle: :haha: :blink:
Vijay.Sharma Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Did Malcolm Marshall ever bowl on flat dead pitches? How would he compare to McGrath and Donald on those? Did he bowl against world class - all time great batsmen? How many? And who would you consider to be world class all time great batsmen who played during that era? ((you have an advantage of referring to ur virtuoso theory)) As far as I know Marshall never bowled to the best batsmen ever like Bradman, Richards, Sobers, Lara, Ponting, Tendulkar, then how could be be considerd to greatest if he were never tested by ATG talent? He did bowl to gavaskar, that much i know....The main reason I have Macko above anyone else is because of his virtuosity - any pitch, any team, any batsman, any innings great performance. the only guy who comes close to him in such a comprehensive look at bowling performances is Hadlee. Macko cut short Gavaskar, Chappell arguably greater batsmen at facing fast bowling than Richards. That image of Gavaskar's bat being felled down by a nasty Macko in 1983 when they toured India is an image that shook the whole nation. No one, absolutely no one could do that to Gavaskar and Macko did it. The only other bowler who got close to brutalizing Gavva was Imran in 1982. Anecdotes done. The thing about McGrath and Donald bowling to the greatest among batsmen: did they bowl to the batsmen at their peaks, and were they at their peaks themselves? If such is the context then both of them have also bowled only to three ATG bats - sachin, Lara, and Inzy just like Macko bowled to Gavva, Chappal, and Miandad. Let's get to the realm of numbers and contexts. McGrath and Donald are great no doubt. But apart from Hadlee and Steyn I am not sure if any other fast bowlers have 5 fors or run through the batting line up in India (and I am not talking about a minnow Indian team of the 50s and 60s...I am talking serious regular Test quality sides). Some subjectivity - McGrath is a metronome and in my book his lack of flair rules him out as a virtuoso. He is an ATG not a virtuoso - to me a virtuoso must have everything to offer: flair, metronomic accuracy, flexibility, innovation, etc. Hadlee had it. Wasim is a master magician. Macko was slightly better than the two of them. Donald bowled faster than any of these fellas for sure and I am not sure why my intuition doesn't put him in the top 2 bracket. Possibly Lillee could be in the top 2 bunch but the only thing that does not take him to that orbit is his lack of sizable performances in different conditions. He played not even 5 Tests on the dust bowls and to me that's too small a sample to judge his performance on sub-continent wickets. Whereas Macko and Hadlee have performed almost as good as Murali and Kumble on dust bowls. Given their performances vis-a-vis the other bowlers in the top 3 bunch are similar in all other conditions, their superior performance on dust bowls takes them ahead.
Cricket Tragic Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Did Malcolm Marshall ever bowl on flat dead pitches? How would he compare to McGrath and Donald on those? Did he bowl against world class - all time great batsmen? How many? And who would you consider to be world class all time great batsmen who played during that era? ((you have an advantage of referring to ur virtuoso theory)) As far as I know Marshall never bowled to the best batsmen ever like Bradman, Richards, Sobers, Lara, Ponting, Tendulkar, then how could be be considerd to greatest if he were never tested by ATG talent? He did bowl to gavaskar, that much i know.... I know that you're taking the piss but I'd like to make a couple of points. He destroyed India in the series after the WC in 1983 and also did well in Pakistan a couple of years later. And Marshall did bowl against Tendulkar in county cricket (Tendulkar made 80 or 90 odd I think). He has bowled a fair bit against Richards during Hampshire vs Somerset games. If someone works out the averages, Viv might not have a great average in those matches (against Roberts and then Marshall) but he very often got out to other bowlers for low scores. For example, he got out several times to Tremlett Sr (Chris Tremlett's dad).
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