PK or Sree??

[gaurav92]

^He is talented enough to use those skills :--D

[gaurav92]

Lords - Flat with turn on days 3-4-5 Ishant Zaheer Sreesanth Mishra/Darty Trent Bridge - Lots of grass and bounce off the wicket Ishant Zaheer Sreesant Munaf Edgbaston - bit of a minefield and difficult to bat on Ishant Zaheer PK Mishra/Darty Oval - Normally a good deck with bounce and carry Ishant Zaheer Munaf Sreesanth

Waise, Oval mein Bhajji paa ne last time 5for liya tha. Rahi baat Bhajji ki, toh mere khayaal se Bhajji har game khelenge aur bahot achhi bowling karenge, mark my words, Bhajji will be the highest wicket taker in the series for India. :agree:

[saneindian]

this is not talent. these are his skills and with slow pace it will be very tough for him in England because they have better batsmen. Swing at 115K-120k of pace is very adjustable for good batsmen.

Ask Salman Butt, Younis and MoYo. Controlled swing at 72-73 mph and voila, Irfan had a hattrick! Thats what swing does to batsmen these days. They will adjust but only at a price as PK's 12 wickets so far shows in this series. Mind you none of his 12 wickets are of tailenders, all top 7 batsmen. Granted that the batting quality will be far superior, but if PK can even be bowling at 75-76 mph under cloudy conditions in England, he will be equally effective.

[rkt.india]

Ask Salman Butt, Younis and MoYo. Controlled swing at 72-73 mph and voila, Irfan had a hattrick! Thats what swing does to batsmen these days. They will adjust but only at a price as PK's 12 wickets so far shows in this series. Mind you none of his 12 wickets are of tailenders, all top 7 batsmen. Granted that the batting quality will be far superior, but if PK can even be bowling at 75-76 mph under cloudy conditions in England, he will be equally effective.

Pathan was not bowling 72-73 mph. He was faster and the advantage with pathan was he was left armer swinger which is always tough for right handed batsmen. PK swings but he is no Steyn not even in accuracy and out swing forget about pace. The kind of deliveries Steyn can bowl PK cannot with his military pace. English batsmen will leave him all day out side off stump. Until he swings them from middle stump to away, he won't trouble them and with video analysis which they will do his out swingers and in swingers will be picked easily because he has subtle change in action when he delivers different deliveries. Though time will tell how he fares as he is a street smart guy, but many a specialist swing bowlers came and gone in recent years without much impact because of their one dimensional ability.

[yoda]

Sree in tests if fit is always a good option.

[saneindian]

Pathan was not bowling 72-73 mph. He was faster and the advantage with pathan was he was left armer swinger which is always tough for right handed batsmen. PK swings but he is no Steyn not even in accuracy and out swing forget about pace. The kind of deliveries Steyn can bowl PK cannot with his military pace. English batsmen will leave him all day out side off stump. Until he swings them from middle stump to away' date=' he won't trouble them and with video analysis which they will do his out swingers and in swingers will be picked easily because he has subtle change in action when he delivers different deliveries. Though time will tell how he fares as he is a street smart guy, but many a specialist swing bowlers came and gone in recent years without much impact because of their one dimensional ability.[/quote'] 73, 76, 77...the same speed that PK operates at. And whats with this comparison with Steyn. On one hand in thread after thread you keep talking about how bowlers take time to adjust to international cricket and here you are comparing someone who has started his career with someone who is a legend (or on his way to become one).

[gaurav92]

^Absolutely :hehe:

[rkt.india]

73, 76, 77...the same speed that PK operates at. And whats with this comparison with Steyn. On one hand in thread after thread you keep talking about how bowlers take time to adjust to international cricket and here you are comparing someone who has started his career with someone who is a legend (or on his way to become one).

I am not compared bowlers...I only compared swing of both these bowlers. Nothing else other than that. I had said that bowlers take time to develop who does not have skills of swing and seam, which they can develop with time, but has raw ingredients to be a fast bowler. PK has already developed most of the skills which he had to because he could only survive in FC cricket if he had these skills as he lacks pace.

73, 76, 77...the same speed that PK operates at.

And look at where Irfan Pathan is now in world cricket. I had said many a specialist swing bowlers like PK have come and gone. Their effectiveness does not last long. We need to develop long-term options which PK will not be and this is the right time as we already have ZAK to guide those youngsters. Otherwise, we will have same problem which we had in 90s, lack of options.

[Pagalpanti]

Although lords was flat in SL test, I wont be surprised if they leave more grass in it when India arrives. Harbhajan, Zaheer and Ishant are the 3 bowlers sure to play all the tests unless some one gets injured. Sree should be the first choice and depending on form it can be decided to bring in PK or not.

[saneindian]

I am not compared bowlers...I only compared swing of both these bowlers. Nothing else other than that. I had said that bowlers take time to develop who does not have skills of swing and seam, which they can develop with time, but has raw ingredients to be a fast bowler. PK has already developed most of the skills which he had to because he could only survive in FC cricket if he had these skills as he lacks pace. And look at where Irfan Pathan is now in world cricket. I had said many a specialist swing bowlers like PK have come and gone. Their effectiveness does not last long. We need to develop long-term options which PK will not be and this is the right time as we already have ZAK to guide those youngsters. Otherwise, we will have same problem which we had in 90s, lack of options.

And on what basis do you suggest that PK will not add variations to his bowling or not add an yard or two of pace as he plays more? Before he made his debut you kept shouting he will be a failure in international cricket, now that you have been proved wrong, you say he is not a long term option! Obviously how far he goes in test cricket will entirely depend on how he adapts to various conditions given, how fit he remains, how long he can sustain his form for and most importantly for how long he can keep that ability of getting prodigious swing. But to call someone as "doesn't look like a long term option" especially after he has taken 12 top order wickets in his debut series, is unjustified IMO. I understand your obsession with pace but that doesn't make other bowlers useless. Irfan disappeared from the scene because he tried to change too many things in his bowling, listened to too many experts and also started focusing on his batting. In fact if at all Irfan Pathan ever comes back to the Indian team, it will happen only when he gets back his "one dimensional" ability of getting the ball to swing.

[Fontaine]

Asif was bowling at 78-82 mph in England and against Australia last year and his pace wasn't an issue as long as he was able to move the ball. It's the same with Praveen Kumar. Now obviously, PK needs to improve a lot and needs to learn to be more attacking at the stumps but he's done a pretty good job so far. Is he going to be a constant wicket taking bowler for us throughout 80 overs? Maybe not, but he's shown enough consistency and accuracy in his swing bowler to merit further consideration.

[vvvslaxman]

I am not compared bowlers...I only compared swing of both these bowlers. Nothing else other than that. I had said that bowlers take time to develop who does not have skills of swing and seam, which they can develop with time, but has raw ingredients to be a fast bowler. PK has already developed most of the skills which he had to because he could only survive in FC cricket if he had these skills as he lacks pace. And look at where Irfan Pathan is now in world cricket. I had said many a specialist swing bowlers like PK have come and gone. Their effectiveness does not last long. We need to develop long-term options which PK will not be and this is the right time as we already have ZAK to guide those youngsters. Otherwise, we will have same problem which we had in 90s, lack of options.

Irfan Pathan failed because he could swing only with new ball. Also his strength is to bring the ball back into right hander. Another thing his release point is way too early which would give away what he is going to do. With Praveen you would never know which way ball was going to go. Hayden is one guy who has destroyed even medium pacers by charging down the wicket. Ask shaun pollock. Even he couldn't pick which way the ball was going to swing. Yes occasionally a guy like Gayle can have a wood over him. But that is in T20. In Tests with defensive mindset batsmen will err eventually. English batsmen handled bowlers that are much quicker than any of the Indian bowlers in Australia. What makes you think our bowlers will make them quack. Only way India can troble them is with swing or bounce not raw pace.

[Fontaine]

To be honest it doesn't really matter whether the 3rd fast bowler is Munaf, Sree or PK as each bowlers has strengths and weakenesses. What matters is: 1. The primary strike bowlers are Zaheer/Ishant/Bhajji. 2. That for the FIRST time in a long long time we have a genuine competition for the bowling positions. The worst situation for bowlers that have a lot of improvement to do is to constantly get an automatic selection as they have no great motivation to really work hard. Now that PK/Munaf/Sree are effectively fighting for the same position, each bowler knows they can't afford to mess around. Munaf knows he can't take his fitness lightly. PK knows that he needs to improve his stamina to bowl a little faster like he does in ODIs. And Sree knows he needs to start acting like a man instead of a crybaby and pretty much work on everything.

[vvvslaxman]

And Sree knows he needs to start acting like a man instead of a crybaby and pretty much work on everything.

That alone is not the are he ought to improve. He is not a complete fast bowler by any means. He very often thinks he is Malcom marshall and bowls far too many short balls and ends up wasting it.He is an outswing bowler. He will go for runs. But also he has chance of getting wickets. As a bowler he is yet to learn the art of setting up batsmen. He kinda bowls without any plan. Just random stuffs.

[saneindian]

Speed Thrills Plagued by injuries throughout his tumultuous six-year international career, Kerala pace ace S Sreesanth is coming through another frustrating period. Not only did he miss the tour of West Indies, where he was expected to spearhead the attack in Zaheer Khan’s absence, he’s also seen his replacement, Praveen Kumar, step up to the plate and stake a claim for a regular spot. Ishant Sharma is also bowling with renewed vigour. Eager to get back in the groove for the England tour, Sreesanth is banking on the thing that works for him – raw pace — injuries be damned. Making a comeback after his latest injury (tennis elbow) the 28-year-old is in no mood to sacrifice pace even with the physical demands of the modern game in mind. “I don’t want to be a bowler who gets injured and then comes back and bowls at 120kmph. I want to bowl fast. Even in 2007, I had a back injury and people asked, ‘why don’t you start playing because you can bowl?’ But, I don’t want to just bowl. I want to bowl fast,” Sreesanth tells the HT in an interview. Excerpts: What’s the status on your injury? I had a tennis elbow, and a bruise on my bone. For the last year and a half I’ve been on and off feeling pain while bowling. I am training hard and following a proper routine. I am fine now. What will be the challenge in England? England are a very good side, they have done well everywhere. The conditions will be helpful, but not getting carried away by the bounce and the swing, like I did on my last tour in 2007, will be the key. It took me two Tests to understand how to bowl in England, and the experience of playing a season for Warwickshire will be to my advantage. One thing about England is that the conditions are helpful but if you don’t hit the right areas you won’t get wickets. If you can swing the ball with pace, nothing like it. I learnt that from Allan Donald and Ashley Giles, who were my coaches at Warwickshire. Many feel the contest will decide the top Test team in the world? We don’t need to discuss that. We’re the top-ranked team, and we have proved it for the last year and a half. Experts feel you are more suited for Test cricket? Is it because it gives you a chance to bounce back unlike a limited overs game? It is an honour when a great player says that I am a good Test bowler. But honestly, as a cricketer, I want to play all forms of the game. I want to give my best shot, some days I don’t do well, which is a part of the game. All I can control is to give my best when I get an opportunity. There’s nothing like a one-day or a Test bowler, I just want to play for India and do well in all forms of the game. I have four-five years of very good cricket left in me, I am 28, and 28 to 32 are the best years for a fast bowler, you are more experienced and more fit. You are known to enjoy the party circuit. How are you preparing for the England series? Have you cut down on partying? I had my share of celebrations for a couple of weeks (after the World Cup win), but that is history now. I am training hard. I don’t want to be a bowler who gets injured and then comes back and bowls at 120kmph. I want to bowl fast. Even in 2007, I had a back injury and people asked, ‘why don’t you start playing because you can bowl?’ But, I don’t want to just bowl. I want to bowl fast. A lot of people question, why he is not playing? But I had this pain and whenever I bowled fast, it was getting worse. I don’t want to cheat myself. I want to bowl fast and get back in to the team. Full interview here -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sree talking sensibly here. Can he show same attitude on the field and make full use of the amazing talents he has got?

[Fontaine]

That alone is not the are he ought to improve. He is not a complete fast bowler by any means. He very often thinks he is Malcom marshall and bowls far too many short balls and ends up wasting it.He is an outswing bowler. He will go for runs. But also he has chance of getting wickets. As a bowler he is yet to learn the art of setting up batsmen. He kinda bowls without any plan. Just random stuffs.

Yes absolutely. I doubt though at the age of 27/28 he's going to start learning things now that he should have learned years ago. The best I can hope is he just becomes a little more consistent and a team player but even that, historically, has been proven as asking too much of this guy.

[Fontaine]

Here are my thoughts on the ideal bowling lineup against England: - England's top 7 are completely different from the Windies in that they are full of confidence and form. You can't just bowl tight line/length and expect to take 20 wickets against England like we've done with West Indies. They're too good for that. They're top 6/7 (apart from KP) are happy to absorb the pressure early on, get their eye in, and then capitalize and bat long. - To take 20 wickets against England you need strike bowlers who can bowl wicket taking spells consistently. Just bowling well and keeping things tight won't be good enough against Trott/Strauss/Cook/Bell. So, right now, I would be inclined to go with Zaheer/Ishant/Sree as the three seamers AS LONG AS, those guys are used in short, sharp burts (5-6 over spells) to take wickets and not necessarily just hold up one end. That means the holding job and giving those three a break will have to come from Bhajji (who can definitely do that) and our part time bowlers like Yuvi/Raina, Sehwag/Mukund. There's no point asking guys like Zaheer/Ishant/Sree to bowl long spells and keep things tight because that's not who they are and that's not going to intimidate/put pressure on and England batting lineup that's in top form. The good thing is that we were really, really close in getting that done against South Africa because they're batting lineup is also very formidable and techically very good, but Ishant was off color and Sree was inconsistent. Well Ishant is in the form of his life and Zaheer is well rested, and Bhajji will do his job. Whether we take 20 wickets or not consistently will come down to Sree and whether our part time bowlers can chip in with a wicket or two. I would feel much more confident if Sree was in good form but he's only coming back from injury just like Sehwag.

[NareshK]

I'm a little surprised at the amount of confidence some posters seem to be having in our bowling attack. I mean Ishant, Praveen, Bhajji are already in the team playing against West Indies and barring Ishant, our bowling attack hasnt looked too deadly and this is under favorable conditions. West Indies are also a very low ranked team and they are low on confidence and struggling especially with their batting. So if Indian bowling attack hasnt looked great against them, they will be up against it when they play England who are ranked No.2 and in top form and playing in their own conditions. I feel Sreesanth should be back in the team with Zaheer and I hope they give the much needed boost that this bowling attack needs against England. I personally cant see how Ishant, Bhajji and Praveen alone can do much damage to England.

[rkt.india]

And on what basis do you suggest that PK will not add variations to his bowling or not add an yard or two of pace as he plays more? Before he made his debut you kept shouting he will be a failure in international cricket, now that you have been proved wrong, you say he is not a long term option! Obviously how far he goes in test cricket will entirely depend on how he adapts to various conditions given, how fit he remains, how long he can sustain his form for and most importantly for how long he can keep that ability of getting prodigious swing. But to call someone as "doesn't look like a long term option" especially after he has taken 12 top order wickets in his debut series, is unjustified IMO. I understand your obsession with pace but that doesn't make other bowlers useless. Irfan disappeared from the scene because he tried to change too many things in his bowling, listened to too many experts and also started focusing on his batting. In fact if at all Irfan Pathan ever comes back to the Indian team, it will happen only when he gets back his "one dimensional" ability of getting the ball to swing.

Do you think he has become successful based on 3 tests. Munaf had 24 wickets in first 6 test matches, in the next 6 tests, he has 10. Sreeshanth had 44 wickets in his first 11 test matches, in the next 13 tests, he took 35 wickets. Three test matches are not enough to call him successful. Though predictions can go very wrong in cricket and I am not predicting anything. I am just saying what I see. He will be better bowler than many on England tour because of swing factor, but if we need to stay no. 1, we will need better bowler for tests, more all round bowlers, look how Dhoni did not give much bowling to PK yesterday other than new ball out of 83 overs. We would not want a bowler who is under bowled by captain against strong batting lineups as we only play 4 bowlers. Then we will left with 3 bowlers. Even Munaf has bowled more than him in both the innings. You are talking about Irfan Pathan. When he took that hattrick, he was struggling with his bowling and was about to be left out from the team and that was just a flash in a pan spell on a very green wicket on the cold morning of Karachi and came out of no where if you remember and remember that Irfan Pathan when first came was though not a quick bowler was used to be around 130-135 most of the time which is a handy speed with swing and now you are talking about 115K and barely touching 120K. And I am not obsessed with pace at all. I like genuine pace bowlers, most of us like, not just me. Pace is an added advantage for a bowler, and swing and seam are also as important for a fast bowler.

[rkt.india]

Asif was bowling at 78-82 mph in England and against Australia last year and his pace wasn't an issue as long as he was able to move the ball. It's the same with Praveen Kumar. Now obviously, PK needs to improve a lot and needs to learn to be more attacking at the stumps but he's done a pretty good job so far. Is he going to be a constant wicket taking bowler for us throughout 80 overs? Maybe not, but he's shown enough consistency and accuracy in his swing bowler to merit further consideration.

Asif is not a swing bowler. He is a seam bowler and his main ability is to get extra bounce with his high arm action and good enough height and he sill bowls around 80 mph (128 KPH) consistently. while PK does not have any of these advantages. He is a swing bowler who is right now bowling 115-120 kph. He will be successful in England and I will prefer him over inconsistent Sreeshanth. Though PK may not take 5-wicket hauls, but he will keep the batsmen in check while useful with the new ball. In comparison to Sreeshanth who can pick up 5-wickets in a match, but largely bowls rubbish unless he sorts out his thought process regarding his bowling and stop thinking like a genuine pacer which he thinks he is but he is not and concentrate on just his out swing bowling with accuracy and just good enough pace around 135K.