India to give $2bn to fund bailouts in Europe

[Vijay.Sharma]

How do you propose we alleviate poverty in India? what should this 2 billion be used for exactly?

Not that I'd have any say in using those 2 billion but if I was in any way made responsible and accountable to using this money to better serve India I'd have lots of ideas in how to use the dough. And I'd give you tangible, measurable results and outcomes. 2 billion dollars is not small change even when it comes to international relations, sir. To put things in perspective, the Pakis have been getting around that much aid from the US to survive (sorry fight the war on terror) for a whole year. I get your point and I also agree it is necessary to build international relations and such marketing and investing in relationships must be done. All I am asking the Govt of India is to disguise it under better contexts than as bail outs for some developed country. The creation and the posing of such obligations to such groups as the G-20 and G-1 and G-100 is just a bloody front for the banking cartel that runs the world to make it's profits.

The thing is that trade relations are very important for a country like India which doesnt have very strong domestic demand as of now. Access to markets isnt free, so we need to pay more for it. Trade is what generates more employment in the country which creates further secondary employment opportunities - (like cabs, autos, hotels etc). If people dont have the purchasing power to afford these services, then we wont have all these additional forms of employment either. Inclusive growth in a heavily populated country like ours is not possible to achieve overnight (would be happy to proved wrong on this). It has to trickle down to the lower levels.

We don't need growth overnight and no one is asking for it either. But the myth about purchasing power not being there within the local economy needs to get buried. How long has it been since you have lived in this neck of the woods? There is genuine need to cater to the local market because the local market is screaming for products, services and the stuff. Consider this - we have the Nikes and Adidases coming here and accessing our market to sell their stuff which is incidentally manufactured here itself. What if an Indian shoe manufacturer who, till now did the orders for Nike, does it for his own brand and sells it at 50% the MRP? You think the millions living in tier 2 and 3 towns and villages won't buy those shoes? Maybe the brand conscious in the cosmopolitans won't buy those shoes but the shoe company will have a hundred times more sales than the "brand conscious" market can provide. There is no dearth of market in India. Open it for fair competition and even the villagers will be able to afford the Nikes in a few years time....Nike will bring it's MRP down unless of course it wants to remain an elite brand (which it isn't anywhere in the world).

[ravishingravi]

How do you propose we alleviate poverty in India? what should this 2 billion be used for exactly?

Starting with accepting the fact that we have a huge majority of population that lives in abject poverty. That the so called India shining and business tie ups and foreign investments are for people like you and me and more so the top 1 %. Nothing really is trickling down even if one is an advocate of trickle down economics. Forget about what the govt. should do to alleviate poverty which is a topic for another thread, what it certainly shouldn't do is give the tax payer's money abroad when a large part of the country and infrastructure is in disarray. That makes no strategic or economic sense other than something like CWG or WC or Obama's visit give the rich and middle class the false sense of pride of having made it, when all it is reinfores is existence of colonial mindset. We dont need to carry "white man's" burden. We have enough to save at home.

[ganeshran]

Not that I'd have any say in using those 2 billion but if I was in any way made responsible and accountable to using this money to better serve India I'd have lots of ideas in how to use the dough. And I'd give you tangible, measurable results and outcomes. 2 billion dollars is not small change even when it comes to international relations, sir. To put things in perspective, the Pakis have been getting around that much aid from the US to survive (sorry fight the war on terror) for a whole year. I get your point and I also agree it is necessary to build international relations and such marketing and investing in relationships must be done. All I am asking the Govt of India is to disguise it under better contexts than as bail outs for some developed country. How it is "disguised" has no relation to what is being done here. The government is not calling it a bailout - its a a loan to an IMF corpus by 26 entities which will be used to fund bailouts. India will get its money back and probably some goodwill as well, which translates into better trade opportunities are The creation and the posing of such obligations to such groups as the G-20 and G-1 and G-100 is just a bloody front for the banking cartel that runs the world to make it's profits.

There is far more money being spent on alleviating poverty and on other social schemes than the 2 billion dollars in discussion here. The problem in alleviating poverty has more to do with the seepage of funds for intended purposes than the lack of funds. Of course we dont have required funds to lift all our poor from poverty given the size of our population, but if the intended social schemes were utilized properly, there would be far more impact that what it has currently. More than 30 billion dollars have been spent since 2005 on the MNREGA scheme alone, without much benefit coming out of it other than lining the pockets of party officials with government money. In my village holes are dug with public money and weeks later the same holes are filled up spending more public money. From what I have seen, NREGA is turning into yet another well meaning initiative ruined by pisspoor implementation

We don't need growth overnight and no one is asking for it either. But the myth about purchasing power not being there within the local economy needs to get buried. How long has it been since you have lived in this neck of the woods? There is genuine need to cater to the local market because the local market is screaming for products, services and the stuff. Consider this - we have the Nikes and Adidases coming here and accessing our market to sell their stuff which is incidentally manufactured here itself. What if an Indian shoe manufacturer who, till now did the orders for Nike, does it for his own brand and sells it at 50% the MRP? You think the millions living in tier 2 and 3 towns and villages won't buy those shoes? Maybe the brand conscious in the cosmopolitans won't buy those shoes but the shoe company will have a hundred times more sales than the "brand conscious" market can provide. There is no dearth of market in India. Open it for fair competition and even the villagers will be able to afford the Nikes in a few years time....Nike will bring it's MRP down unless of course it wants to remain an elite brand (which it isn't anywhere in the world).

What you are saying is already happening. Local manufacturers do manufacture goods at cheaper prices which are bought by people who cannot offered branded goods. :dontknow: But the demand for goods/services in India is far lower compared to American and European countries.

[dial_100]

No point of bailing out Europe. Europe is pretty irrelevant as a continent these days. Justa few decades back, it was a hep and happening place that would go at war over minor things like race, language, colonies etc. Nowadays, Europeans only indulge in pub fights over the results of Barcelona vs England and other such meaningless football games. They don't even make good music or films there anymore. The only time Europe is relevant is when Yashraj films decides to shoot a song there. Europe is a Bollywood colony. I'd rather we bail out a needy African, Middle Eastern or South American country.

I think these bailouts are as a part of our commitment towards IMF. It is sad that this money will go to economies which are going to eventually collapse. It is just to keep the European creditors of these countries afloat for longer and not take a large hit when the country collapses. The IMF is to support world economy. Feeding to poor is the responsibility of the country itself and of course WB pitch-in for such causes.

[Vijay.Sharma]

How it is "disguised" has no relation to what is being done here. The government is not calling it a bailout - its a a loan to an IMF corpus by 26 entities which will be used to fund bailouts. India will get its money back and probably some goodwill as well' date=' which translates into better trade opportunities are[/quote']I think it does. If the Lokpal thing was not going on just now, the opposition would have quite rightly questioned this decision. Perception matters...the common man as evident from the reactions you see from a few of the ICF'ers here...we are those common people (let's not get into statistical sampling and all for that phrase I used but you get the idea), feels strongly about not wanting to spend the money for bail outs. Loans to fund bail outs, whatever. I am not arguing about alleviating poverty at all. As [Edit - twas RavishinghRavi actually] Akshay has mentioned it's a very large topic and may need tens of threads for it. My argument is that this money could've been better spent. We can start another thread on how to use those specific 2 billion dollars to better serve India than waste it on an IMF loan for funding bail outs, basically bailing out some developed countries. Alright here's a thought to ponder. India owes money to the Word Bank and IMF...in billions for the repayment of loans we have taken from them and continue to take from them. Why not use this bloody 2 billion dollars to repay those loans instead of bailing out a developed country/ies (it's basically Greece for now)? I mean how hard can the Math, Commerce, and Economics be on this - u have Rs.2/- extra pocket money. You have some Rs.100/- to be repaid for the loans you have taken. You are hell bent on not utilizing this Rs.2/- for buying something for yourself. Why not bring down your outstanding loans to Rs.98/- then? Or, if you are just feeling ultra generous why not lend/gift away this Rs.2/- to some poor person? Respectfully sir, how long has it been since you have lived in this neck of the woods? And can you please specify what goods/services we are referring to here? I can think of somethings that probably only China can beat us as a market for - Healthcare, Water, Transport, Electricity But if you are interested in household and consumer goods - cooking utensils, carpentry works, electrical fittings, furntiure, electronic appliances, computers, all dem new gadgets, cell phones. OK, do you know which brand of cell phones sells the largest in India or at least among the largest? Are you seriously saying there is no need for these goods and services here? Every school in the urban cities and even rural Kannada medium schools (I know for a fact coz I have taken it up to educate a couple of kids from a poor family I know of in Hassan district...the guy was a laborer who came over to paint our house and I offered to educate his kids and I am so grateful for him to have gave me the opportunity to do so) has a software application for its school management. Do they buy some Oracle product for that? No! They get it done from someone who makes/sells stuff locally. Is that not a beaming market to sell software services and products? Again, how long since you have lived in this neck of the woods, sir?

[yoda]

Every country has people living in poverty. Even the US has homeless folks and it's got a fecking 14 trillion dollar debt, yet is the biggest funder of the UN, IMF, IBDAF, and IWHATEVER. If all countries wait for all their problems to be gone before they would be willing to lend a helping hand, there would be no helpers. Right now Europe is in a mess. Countries are defaulting and need bailing out. All countries pitch and help stabilize, they can reap the benefits of a stable Europe later. Ofc, all this is in theory. :finger:

[Vijay.Sharma]

Every country has people living in poverty. Even the US has homeless folks and it's got a fecking 14 trillion dollar debt, yet is the biggest funder of the UN, IMF, IBDAF, and IWHATEVER. If all countries wait for all their problems to be gone before they would be willing to lend a helping hand, there would be no helpers. Right now Europe is in a mess. Countries are defaulting and need bailing out. All countries pitch and help stabilize, they can reap the benefits of a stable Europe later. Ofc, all this is in theory. :finger:

You think by showing the finger you are making your point any better? Which are these "all countries" that are helping to stabilize Europe. If "all" countries pitch in to stabilize Africa and SA I am damn sure we will reap even more benefits...there are more natural resources available in Africa and SA than in Europe. There is amazing human potential available in Africa and SA than in Europe. There are more people who can work hard than sit on their couches watching football in Africa and SA. Why not "all" countries pitch in and help stabilize Africa and SA? In fact it will stabilize global economy because it will do two things simultaneously - it will help improve standards in Africa and SA and reduce the standards in Europe - the world will be closer to equality than ever before. Anyway on a different note, I am sure you must be having some money in your account and of course you have your own financial problems to attend to as well. But, how about helping my friend Mr.X here? He makes 10 times the salary you make but he has just defaulted on a few loans and has run into some other unforeseen problems...all very unfortunate really. Can you please lend some money to help him? He doesn't promise you anything in return but I know for sure he is very kind-hearted...he might just make a job offer that will double your current income once he is in the clear. Oh and he lives in an elite neighborhood too. Come on, Yoda, lend him some money.

[ganeshran]

I think it does. If the Lokpal thing was not going on just now, the opposition would have quite rightly questioned this decision. Perception matters...the common man as evident from the reactions you see from a few of the ICF'ers here...we are those common people (let's not get into statistical sampling and all for that phrase I used but you get the idea), feels strongly about not wanting to spend the money for bail outs. Loans to fund bail outs, whatever. I am not arguing about alleviating poverty at all. As [Edit - twas RavishinghRavi actually] Akshay has mentioned it's a very large topic and may need tens of threads for it. My argument is that this money could've been better spent. We can start another thread on how to use those specific 2 billion dollars to better serve India than waste it on an IMF loan for funding bail outs, basically bailing out some developed countries. Alright here's a thought to ponder. India owes money to the Word Bank and IMF...in billions for the repayment of loans we have taken from them and continue to take from them. Why not use this bloody 2 billion dollars to repay those loans instead of bailing out a developed country/ies (it's basically Greece for now)? I mean how hard can the Math, Commerce, and Economics be on this - u have Rs.2/- extra pocket money. You have some Rs.100/- to be repaid for the loans you have taken. You are hell bent on not utilizing this Rs.2/- for buying something for yourself. Why not bring down your outstanding loans to Rs.98/- then? Or, if you are just feeling ultra generous why not lend/gift away this Rs.2/- to some poor person? Respectfully sir, how long has it been since you have lived in this neck of the woods? And can you please specify what goods/services we are referring to here? I can think of somethings that probably only China can beat us as a market for - Healthcare, Water, Transport, Electricity But if you are interested in household and consumer goods - cooking utensils, carpentry works, electrical fittings, furntiure, electronic appliances, computers, all dem new gadgets, cell phones. OK, do you know which brand of cell phones sells the largest in India or at least among the largest? Are you seriously saying there is no need for these goods and services here? Every school in the urban cities and even rural Kannada medium schools (I know for a fact coz I have taken it up to educate a couple of kids from a poor family I know of in Hassan district...the guy was a laborer who came over to paint our house and I offered to educate his kids and I am so grateful for him to have gave me the opportunity to do so) has a software application for its school management. Do they buy some Oracle product for that? No! They get it done from someone who makes/sells stuff locally. Is that not a beaming market to sell software services and products? Again, how long since you have lived in this neck of the woods, sir?

Nirvanam, as usual you are writing huge volumes of text without making an iota of sense. No one denied there is a local market in India. Its just that it is smaller in size compared to the USA and Europe where a huge culture of consumerism drives a demand for goods and services which is more than what is present in India currently. Local demand needs to be boosted by lifting more people out of poverty. People can be lifted out of poverty only if there is trickle down growth to lower levels. Trade is important to ensure that there is growth in the country and such contributions form a part of the need to boost trade. The example which you cited - China is also reliant on external markets to boost its internal demand. The area of our disagreement is the benefit this 2 billion dollar loan will get us in the future. I say it will bring us a good standing within the G20 and boost trade opportunities with other countries. You say it wont be useful and the money could have been spent domestically. Since both of us dont know what will happen in the future, we have to agree to disagree here.

[dial_100]

Every country has people living in poverty. Even the US has homeless folks and it's got a fecking 14 trillion dollar debt, yet is the biggest funder of the UN, IMF, IBDAF, and IWHATEVER. If all countries wait for all their problems to be gone before they would be willing to lend a helping hand, there would be no helpers. Right now Europe is in a mess. Countries are defaulting and need bailing out. All countries pitch and help stabilize, they can reap the benefits of a stable Europe later. Ofc, all this is in theory. :finger:

There is no question in any experts mind that Greece will default on its payment soon. Now question is how long others should continue to help so that creditors in Europe won't incurr larger loses. Growth rate is not substantial. Every country will have to suffer there share of bad policy making. After all these financial institutions are leaders in their respective countries. Having said that, I feel, all the major contributors want Europe's economy to improve, especially, these 4 countries.o

[CSK Fan]

So at what point do we go from being a local player to having a good hand in the world economy? Where is India's currency and economic clout now, its fairly non-existant. Yes we have loads of issues and poverty at home which we need to solve, but the world scenario is not going to wait for us to solve all our home issues and then step into the global market. With the US going down and Europe shrinking, there will soon be a vaccum. the BRIC countries are poised to take advantage of this. India IMO has to strike a fine balance between home and global situations and be equally participating in both The world is changing at a very fast pace, soon even finances and economy will be cloud based and the power centers will shift. If India does not dig its feet in now, it will find that it has missed the bus in a world mostly controlled by China and Russia and hugely dependent on them It will take 20 years or more for the above scenario to take place but the seeds are being sown now. No country worth its salt can afford to live in its own bubble, ignoring the market particulary when any change in the global scenario is going to affect each and every country immediately. Wouldnt you want an inside say in those changes then Obviously I have painted a very simplistic, linear summary of my understanding of the market and there are numerous factors and permutations involved. But in short, India doesnt have the luxury of just being a cautious watcher anymore, the existance of rivals will force its hands sooner than it likes.

[Guest Gunner]

So at what point do we go from being a local player to having a good hand in the world economy? Where is India's currency and economic clout now, its fairly non-existant. Yes we have loads of issues and poverty at home which we need to solve, but the world scenario is not going to wait for us to solve all our home issues and then step into the global market. With the US going down and Europe shrinking, there will soon be a vaccum. the BRIC countries are poised to take advantage of this. India IMO has to strike a fine balance between home and global situations and be equally participating in both The world is changing at a very fast pace, soon even finances and economy will be cloud based and the power centers will shift. If India does not dig its feet in now, it will find that it has missed the bus in a world mostly controlled by China and Russia and hugely dependent on them It will take 20 years or more for the above scenario to take place but the seeds are being sown now. No country worth its salt can afford to live in its own bubble, ignoring the market particulary when any change in the global scenario is going to affect each and every country immediately. Wouldnt you want an inside say in those changes then Obviously I have painted a very simplistic, linear summary of my understanding of the market and there are numerous factors and permutations involved. But in short, India doesnt have the luxury of just being a cautious watcher anymore, the existance of rivals will force its hands sooner than it likes.

You give India far more credit than they deserve. I can't see India as a superpower of any sort. Rightfully, China will be the next great player in the global game of geopolitics, India is not even fit to stand in the same room.

[CSK Fan]

You give India far more credit than they deserve. I can't see India as a superpower of any sort. Rightfully' date=' China will be the next great player in the global game of geopolitics, India is not even fit to stand in the same room.[/quote'] India cannot match the clout of China, but still needs to have some sort of participation along with the other BRC countries, partially because it represents the fortunes of over a billion people. instead of trying to compete with China etc, it will be good if it plays its own role in its limited capacity. And that opportunity is slowly arising

[Guest Gunner]

India cannot match the clout of China' date=' but still needs to have some sort of participation along with the other BRC countries, partially because it represents the fortunes of over a billion people. instead of trying to compete with China etc, it will be good if it plays its own role in its limited capacity. And that opportunity is slowly arising[/quote'] India would do a lot better with superior governance. The way the country is run I fear that they will struggle to take advantage of those benefits available to the other components of BRIC. India is a country run by thieves for thieves. Unless there is remarkable improvement in governance and sense of civic duty among people, the country will struggle to take advantage of any opportunities internationally. This is of course my opinion and I am sure there will be counter arguments to this.

[Vijay.Sharma]

Nirvanam, as usual you are writing huge volumes of text without making an iota of sense. No one denied there is a local market in India. Its just that it is smaller in size compared to the USA and Europe where a huge culture of consumerism drives a demand for goods and services which is more than what is present in India currently. Local demand needs to be boosted by lifting more people out of poverty. People can be lifted out of poverty only if there is trickle down growth to lower levels. Trade is important to ensure that there is growth in the country and such contributions form a part of the need to boost trade. The example which you cited - China is also reliant on external markets to boost its internal demand. The area of our disagreement is the benefit this 2 billion dollar loan will get us in the future. I say it will bring us a good standing within the G20 and boost trade opportunities with other countries. You say it wont be useful and the money could have been spent domestically. Since both of us dont know what will happen in the future, we have to agree to disagree here.

OK, let's just agree to disagree. But maybe you could try and answer my question about how long it has been since you have lived in India - don't worry your answer will not be making any point for me or for you Edit - By the way I am not saying it won't be useful to give 2 bil to Greece and Europe and I agree with your idea that it is meant for marketing ourselves. I don't disagree there at all. As I said in my very first post to you that I disagree in the "event" (debt crisis in a dev country) chosen to do the marketing.

[Vijay.Sharma]

You give India far more credit than they deserve. I can't see India as a superpower of any sort. Rightfully' date=' China will be the next great player in the global game of geopolitics, India is not even fit to stand in the same room.[/quote']I don't think India must even have an ambition of being a super power. Who the fu

[Vijay.Sharma]

India would do a lot better with superior governance. The way the country is run I fear that they will struggle to take advantage of those benefits available to the other components of BRIC. India is a country run by thieves for thieves. Unless there is remarkable improvement in governance and sense of civic duty among people' date=' the country will struggle to take advantage of any opportunities internationally. This is of course my opinion and I am sure there will be counter arguments to this.[/quote']Agreed!

[Guest Gunner]

I don't think India must even have an ambition of being a super power. Who the fu I will give you two examples to represent each paragraph of your post. Norway and USA - which one do you consider a superpower?

[Vijay.Sharma]

I will give you two examples to represent each paragraph of your post. Norway and USA - which one do you consider a superpower?

Like I said, it doesn't matter to me which one of them is more powerful...what matters to me is am I strong? Besides for all the supposed "super powers" of either of them, they can't do nothing against each other. Neither can USA get the balls to attack or exploit Norway nor can Norway get the balls to attack or exploit USA. Both of them are strong enough to ensure the other stays in check. Right now, India is not as strong as Norway or USA. So I'd first try to make myself strong. If you really observe, China has more influence than India, why? Because it is internally stronger than India. China's growing influence in the world is because of it's inner strength not because of @ss-licking. Damn, they even asked each and every one of dem "first" world nations to eff off and no one neither could nor would do anything to them. Because China is strong. There is a difference between strength and power. Like you yourself said in one of the posts above, we need to improve internally - our governance. Another example - BCCI. BCCI is powerful because it is strong. It has the support of it's state boards and luckily it runs the cricket in a country that accounts for maybe 80% of the world cricket watching population. If you remove the thing that gives BCCI it's strength - Indian fans - then BCCI will no longer have any power. In fact, BCCI became "powerful" only after it discovered its own strength i.e. the largeness of the Indian market.

[Mariyam]

Saar' date=' We ***in cant run a silly thing such as a anonymous phorum in a righteous manner without fear or favor aur aap Desh ki baat kar rahe hai ? ... I mean this is a country that has elected blood suckers like the Kaangress for well over 50 yrs out of 64 ? :headshake: :cantstop: :--D[/quote'] We? You aren't even Indian :P And how can you compare running an internet forum with with running the country? The people who run this forum are not elected representatives, they do not owe the rest of the forum wasis anything. They take time from their lives to make this place run and me and you are still posting here today. Give them credit where due. And most of them are in/around US. Going by your logic, this forum represents USA, if any country. :P

[Guest Gunner]

Like I said, it doesn't matter to me which one of them is more powerful...what matters to me is am I strong? Besides for all the supposed "super powers" of either of them, they can't do nothing against each other. Neither can USA get the balls to attack or exploit Norway nor can Norway get the balls to attack or exploit USA. Both of them are strong enough to ensure the other stays in check. Right now, India is not as strong as Norway or USA. So I'd first try to make myself strong. If you really observe, China has more influence than India, why? Because it is internally stronger than India. China's growing influence in the world is because of it's inner strength not because of @ss-licking. Damn, they even asked each and every one of dem "first" world nations to eff off and no one neither could nor would do anything to them. Because China is strong. There is a difference between strength and power. Like you yourself said in one of the posts above, we need to improve internally - our governance. Another example - BCCI. BCCI is powerful because it is strong. It has the support of it's state boards and luckily it runs the cricket in a country that accounts for maybe 80% of the world cricket watching population. If you remove the thing that gives BCCI it's strength - Indian fans - then BCCI will no longer have any power. In fact, BCCI became "powerful" only after it discovered its own strength i.e. the largeness of the Indian market.

You are completely missing the point. I gave you the example of both Norway and USA to demonstrate that though both of them are "strong", one is a superpower and the other is not. Norway is a respected nation for its policies and governance but it is not a player in the geopolitical arena despite being a fundamentally strong country. The US on the other hand has both economic strength and the status of a superpower because it has carefully built itself up to that. China today is doing the same, they are economically strong, their politicians speak with one voice and they have an extremely focussed foreign policy - therefore they are very much on course to be a superpower. Now contrast this with what our dhotis are doing in New Delhi and tell me whether you have faith in anything which happens in this country. When I read about these bastards, I am filled with a sense of loathing and anger. However it is almost impossible to stop them because we have conceded too much ground to them in the last 60 years. Finally, I knew you would bring up the BCCI, however the BCCI has a clearer policy for power projection than India will ever have.