Allow EU's trade concession to pakistan : Manmohan Singh

[Ram]

I actually disgaree with your line of argument on the thread' date=' but agree with this one instance. I was bitterly disappointed at the manner in which the govt., media and people in general reacted or rather failed to react at the destruction during floods in Pakistan. It was an unprecedented disaster. And if in that instance we would have reacted with our hearts and been generous when they were desperate we would have won over a lot of hearts. It was a lost opportunity both politically and humanely.[/quote'] Its amazing how people cannot let go off their age-old animosities, even in the face of death, destruction and suffering! We dont particularly like Pakistan, but Pakistanis are dying. These are real people children, women and men. And yet, what seems to be more important is our trade prospects? Yes, they have not reciprocated and they wont do so as well. But why should that influence how we go about our business? The answer to cheap, dirty politics is not cheaper, dirtier politics. You will only make the situation worse. We have to send a message to the world that we are a BETTER country. We want the people of the world to stop equating India to Pakistan. We're not the same, we are different. Dude, the only way to make sure relief reached people is by ensuring that their businesses thrive. The EU could give the Pakistani govt. One bn Euros in flood relief money, but I can guarantee, most of that will be gulped down corrupt politicians and greedy contractors.

[seedhi]

Oh so you were outraged then? Excellent. So I am guessing it shouldnÃÕ take too much cajoling for you to say this; Come on, lets hear you say that.

Learn a bit of history - Vajpayee was already heading a caretaker govt. at that time. His party/coalition won the reelection later the same year. Also, I dont think it would have been a good idea for a govt to resign in the middle of a war.

I cant be surfing the internet trying to extricate links that satisfy you. The fact of the matter is, the same trade measures that you know condemn the Congress govt, erstwhile BJP govt. have done the exact same things, if not more.

As far as I know, any compromise on trade etc with pakistan was on a mutually beneficial basis. In this case India has everything to lose. This is worse than losing money, it might permanently damage our textile industry - an irreparable loss.

Better late than never to act humanitarian, IÃÅ say? :winky:

Yes, feed the country that has killed 100,000 Indians over the last 20 years along with causing the death of an estimated 5000 soldiers., while destroying your own industry. Thats not humanity, its foolishness.

[Ram]

Learn a bit of history - Vajpayee was already heading a caretaker govt. at that time. His party/coalition won the reelection later the same year. Also' date=' I dont think it would have been a good idea for a govt to resign in the middle of a war. [/quote'] I know my history thanks. The BJP won the re-election on the back of the ÁÕriumphant Kargil campaign, when the fact of the matter is, it was one of the most spectacular failures on the part of the establishment in the first place. Sure, they need not have resigned in the middle of the campaign, but did you think they had the moral right to contest for power again, based on what happened before? You are always bringing up morality when it came to the Congress party right (even for unbelievably trivial issues). If you have problem with Manmohan Singh staying in office because he gave the go-ahead to EU trade deal to Pakistan (even though it was in the face of unprecedented human catastrophe), I am sure you must have been fuming at the prospect of the govt. that sat on its hands and watched enemy soldiers casually stroll across the border and set camps in our territory, contest for power again, correct? So, do you think the BJP had the moral authority to contest for power again? Not true at all.. The Vajpayee govt had made several unilateral concessions with Pakistan and much like what is happening today, most of them were ignored by the other side. And reg. ÅÊrrepairable loss that you claim this EU deal might cause to our textile Industry I donÃÕ think so. Our textile industry is pretty robust. We have survived an economic slowdown and rising competition from other low-cost players. A one-time EU deal for Pakistan, quite frankly, is not going to be the straw that broke the camelÃÔ back. First of all, donÃÕ try to fabricate guilt out of thin air and try to plaster it on to me. So you are suggesting that we continue the opposition to this deal, thereby implicitly playing a part in the continued humanitarian suffering of ordinary Pakistani civilians who had literally nothing to do with the policies of their govt, correct?

[ganeshran]

Yes, they have not reciprocated and they wont do so as well. But why should that influence how we go about our business? The answer to cheap, dirty politics is not cheaper, dirtier politics. You will only make the situation worse. We have to send a message to the world that we are a BETTER country. We want the people of the world to stop equating India to Pakistan. We're not the same, we are different.

Ram, you are arguing from an idealistic position which doesnt hold water given the geopolitical relationship between India and Pakistan. As individials, you and I may share equal compassion for the starving masses in both India and Pakistan. However the government of the land owes its existence to our people first and its policies should be primarily centered around the Indian citizen. the people who are starving in Pakistan is the responsibility of their state. If talking peace with Pakistan provided us with long term benefits like peace in the region and consequently less military expenditure, I would welcome them with open arms. However the Pakistani establishment has time and again displayed its stubbornness on what it considers core issues. We owe Pakistan absolutely no concessions unless they show sincerity in wanting a peaceful relationship, which IMO their establishment will never want. The copius amounts of ill-will against the United States despite it giving billions in both military and humanitarian assistance is testament enough of how much Pakistan values external help. I am not saying our government should not help poor people in other countries - in fact I advocate India providing more assistance to Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Nepal , Vietnam , Indonesia among others. Building a better relationship with them not only helps us build goodwill but also is strategically important to counter Pakistan and China

[seedhi]

I know my history thanks. The BJP won the re-election on the back of the ÃÕriumphant Kargil campaign, when the fact of the matter is, it was one of the most spectacular failures on the part of the establishment in the first place. Sure, they need not have resigned in the middle of the campaign, but did you think they had the moral right to contest for power again, based on what happened before? You are always bringing up morality when it came to the Congress party right (even for unbelievably trivial issues). If you have problem with Manmohan Singh staying in office because he gave the go-ahead to EU trade deal to Pakistan (even though it was in the face of unprecedented human catastrophe), I am sure you must have been fuming at the prospect of the govt. that sat on its hands and watched enemy soldiers casually stroll across the border and set camps in our territory, contest for power again, correct? So, do you think the BJP had the moral authority to contest for power again?

Kargil was an intelligence failure. At least under the leadership of the BJP India regained back the territory it lost while inflicting severe losses on pakistan. Compare that to chacha Nehru who not only lost 37000 sq km of territory to the Chinese, along with the lives of 3000 soldiers, but had the shamelessness to proclaim that nobody lives in Aksai Chin anyway so it did not matter. Vajpayee was only following the footsteps of one of his idols Nehru while still doing better than him. In any case though, it was not on purpose that either Nehru or Vajpayee or Shastri in 1965 allow pakistanis or chinese inside our borders. On the other hand this move by MMS is on purpose, fully knowing that India might lose enormously by it.

Not true at all.. The Vajpayee govt had made several unilateral concessions with Pakistan and much like what is happening today, most of them were ignored by the other side.

If it did it was wrong, but at least provide some evidence to back up your assertion.

And reg. ÅÊrrepairable loss that you claim this EU deal might cause to our textile Industry I donÃÕ think so. Our textile industry is pretty robust. We have survived an economic slowdown and rising competition from other low-cost players. A one-time EU deal for Pakistan, quite frankly, is not going to be the straw that broke the camelÃÔ back.

It may or may not. But why take the risk. The interests of India's textile industry and cotton farmers cannot be compromised simply to satisfy the altruistic instincts of MMS, when there is nothing to gain at all.

First of all, donÃÕ try to fabricate guilt out of thin air and try to plaster it on to me. So you are suggesting that we continue the opposition to this deal, thereby implicitly playing a part in the continued humanitarian suffering of ordinary Pakistani civilians who had literally nothing to do with the policies of their govt, correct?

Firstly, this has nothing to do with the suffering of pakistani people, but preventing the unnecessary suffering of our people. Secondly pakistan also claims many other factors for its people suffering. Tomorrow it will want water from (say) the Ravi or Sutluj rivers to alleviate the suffering its farmers in the dry season, so should we give them more water, since our agriculture is not going to collapse (India is a large country yada yada)? Next what - hand them the valley to alleviate the suffering of Hafiz Sayeed and his cohorts? By the way, if you are so concerned about the humanitarian aspect of this issue, think of India's opposition to the EU package as a humanitarian gesture to Bangladesh and Peru.

[Ram]

Kargil was an intelligence failure. At least under the leadership of the BJP India regained back the territory it lost while inflicting severe losses on pakistan. Compare that to chacha Nehru who not only lost 37000 sq km of territory to the Chinese, along with the lives of 3000 soldiers, but had the shamelessness to proclaim that nobody lives in Aksai Chin anyway so it did not matter. Vajpayee was only following the footsteps of one of his idols Nehru while still doing better than him. In any case though, it was not on purpose that either Nehru or Vajpayee or Shastri in 1965 allow pakistanis or chinese inside our borders. On the other hand this move by MMS is on purpose, fully knowing that India might lose enormously by it.

We'll get to Nehru chacha and his ancestors later, but lets stick to Kargil for now. So what you'ree saying is, the BJP govt. of 1999 bears no responsibility whatsoever for the massive catastrophe that was Kargil? I am sure your memory isnt THAT bad, but surely, you do remember what happened in Kargil, correct? 1000s of uniformed Pakistani soldiers and mercenaries marched into OUR land, set camp and launched an assault on OUR people. The first, most important duty of any govt. of a country is to protect the territorial integrity of the state and the BJP govt. failed to do that. It does not matter who in the establishment failed to prevent it, but the ultimately responsibility rests with the top. And you're saying that, after this, the BJP govt. had the moral authority to contest for power again? So let me ask you one more time Do you think the BJP govt. headed by Atal Bihari Vajpayee had the moral authority to contest for power again, after letting our country suffer one of the most embarrassing cross-border incursion in several decades? Yes or No?

If it did it was wrong, but at least provide some evidence to back up your assertion.

Vajpayee launched a whole slew of unilateral peace initiatives towards the 2nd of 2003, just before the elections of 2004. He even termed it his ?rd and final peace effort and that he will retire if these moves failed..? Again, its not my job to provide you easy to browse links. I have made a claim. You can go look it up on the internet if you want. If you find information contradictory to my claim, come back to me and we will talk about it.

It may or may not. But why take the risk. The interests of India's textile industry and cotton farmers cannot be compromised simply to satisfy the altruistic instincts of MMS, when there is nothing to gain at all.

The doubt is only fabrication of your mind. If you think a one-off EU trade deal with Pakistan is going to kill the Indian textile industry, then I am sorry to say, you know little about the mechanics of trade and our industry.

Firstly, this has nothing to do with the suffering of pakistani people, but preventing the unnecessary suffering of our people. Secondly pakistan also claims many other factors for its people suffering. Tomorrow it will want water from (say) the Ravi or Sutluj rivers to alleviate the suffering its farmers in the dry season, so should we give them more water, since our agriculture is not going to collapse (India is a large country yada yada)? Next what - hand them the valley to alleviate the suffering of Hafiz Sayeed and his cohorts?

Why stop at that? lets hand them half of our mineral resources as well, while we are at it! Why are you trying to mangle this issue out of recognition? As far diversionary tactics go, this is a silly, stupid one.

By the way, if you are so concerned about the humanitarian aspect of this issue, think of India's opposition to the EU package as a humanitarian gesture to Bangladesh and Peru.

Duh.. the Bangladeshi and Peruvian people are not suffering from a disastrous natural calamity that devastated the lives of millions of people. So why are we even talking about them here? P.S; Btw, your new found (phony) compassion for the poor of Bangladesh and Peru moves my heart!

[Clarke]

Dude' date=' the only way to make sure relief reached people is by ensuring that their businesses thrive. The EU could give the Pakistani govt. One bn Euros in flood relief money, but I can guarantee, most of that will be gulped down corrupt politicians and greedy contractors.[/quote'] I'll disagree on this means of relief being the best for those affected by floods. This is simply encouraging incompetence from an incompetent government. http://tribune.com.pk/story/233698/textile-industry-give-me-electricity-or-i-will-move-to-bangladesh/ The best means of aid is to deliver the aid itself i.e. housing/construction materials, food, fertilizers etc rather than hope for some trickle down mechanism. There is the prospect of black marketing of delivered aid in corrupt societies but then i cannot think of a fool proof mechanism

[Khalpat]

I am sorry for being Out of topic but one thing always bothers me whenever there is a discussion on any thing related to UPA government either in a forum or in media the person whoever is representing Congress party or supporting it he says nothing about the topic being discussed, he comes up with no argument in favour of government instead he always points to look what NDA did when they were in power, look what Vajpayee did, look what Modi did arey Maharaj if NDA or BJP was so good they would have been ruling till now. Unse bhi galtiyan huyi hain that is the reason people kicked them out. But after seeing the working of present gov, people feel ki yaar we can give chance to other this is anti incumbency. But Congress supporter themselves consider Vajpayee and his rule as Benchmark I think. When Manish Tiwari is asked why Quatrochi is given clean chit his answer is NDA also didnt do any thing against him. When Singhvi is asked why so terrorist attack his answer would be Parliament was attacked during Vajpayee gov arey what nonsense man. Congress party definitely needs a good face to represent who can talk and speak something positive always poinitng negatively towards other shows lack of intellect.

[seedhi]

We'll get to Nehru chacha and his ancestors later, but lets stick to Kargil for now. So what you'ree saying is, the BJP govt. of 1999 bears no responsibility whatsoever for the massive catastrophe that was Kargil? I am sure your memory isnt THAT bad, but surely, you do remember what happened in Kargil, correct? 1000s of uniformed Pakistani soldiers and mercenaries marched into OUR land, set camp and launched an assault on OUR people. The first, most important duty of any govt. of a country is to protect the territorial integrity of the state and the BJP govt. failed to do that. It does not matter who in the establishment failed to prevent it, but the ultimately responsibility rests with the top. And you're saying that, after this, the BJP govt. had the moral authority to contest for power again? So let me ask you one more time Do you think the BJP govt. headed by Atal Bihari Vajpayee had the moral authority to contest for power again, after letting our country suffer one of the most embarrassing cross-border incursion in several decades? Yes or No?

As I said earlier - there is a distinction between MMS doing something on purpose and a failure of intelligence/capability (as in Kargil or 1962 or 26/11). A PM who is willfully harming India is more dangerous than an incompetent one. But let me clarify, MMS in opinion should have resigned even before this for many other reasons (2G, CWG etc), but he may always seek a reelection on the basis of his performance and if the Indian people accept him then well and good. On the other hand, Kargil was a failure of intelligence on the ground level. If it were true that Vajpayee or his Defence or Home Ministers had made some spurious decisions that led to it then he should have resigned after the war (if it were not a caretaker govt). This is distinctly different from MMS personally making a spurious decision, or his ministers looting the country on such a huge scale (with his tacit acquiescence).

Vajpayee launched a whole slew of unilateral peace initiatives towards the 2nd of 2003, just before the elections of 2004. He even termed it his ?rd and final peace effort and that he will retire if these moves failed..? Again, its not my job to provide you easy to browse links. I have made a claim. You can go look it up on the internet if you want. If you find information contradictory to my claim, come back to me and we will talk about it.

If you make a claim, it is your duty to provide evidence for it. I did not find any evidence of Vajpayee having withdrawn the MFN status as you claimed, so I dont feel the need to believe you on any assertion without evidence.

The doubt is only fabrication of your mind. If you think a one-off EU trade deal with Pakistan is going to kill the Indian textile industry, then I am sorry to say, you know little about the mechanics of trade and our industry.

The Indian govt itself has argued earlier that this move would harm Indian exports to the EU, and also that it would actually not help the pakistani people. This is what representatives from European countries themselves have said:

Some member states -- Italy, Spain, and Portugal -- as well as textile lobby Euratex and European textile and apparel industry, have opposed the EU's trade-related concessions for Pakistan, as it would affect their own textile industry.

More opposition:

At the WTO, India, along with Brazil, Vietnam, and Peru, among others, have opposed the waiver on the ground that it would set an unhealthy precedent by allowing industrialised countries to distort global trade rules, particularly the most-favored-nation treatment under which all countries are treated on par.

India's argument till now:

"The EU proposal, as currently framed, appears deeply flawed, both in terms of its likely potential to help the flood-affected victims and help in the reconstruction effort, as well as the near certainty of its causing collateral systemic and commercial damage to the MFN principle and the poor workers in other developing countries respectively," India said during a meeting of the Goods Council last year when the EU raised the issue for the first time.

Here is the link : http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-05-10/news/29528311_1_euratex-pakistan-floods-goods-council . So the MMS govt had earlier even cast doubts on whether such a package will even help the flood victims in pakistan, so now on what basis can it reverse its opposition? I mean after trashing this proposal in the most scathing terms, has the MMS govt attained nirvana after one year.

Why stop at that? lets hand them half of our mineral resources as well, while we are at it! Why are you trying to mangle this issue out of recognition? As far diversionary tactics go, this is a silly, stupid one.

I am only pointing out that your argument is flawed as it is not robust enough to be generalized.

Duh.. the Bangladeshi and Peruvian people are not suffering from a disastrous natural calamity that devastated the lives of millions of people. So why are we even talking about them here?

Bangladesh is more dependent on textile exports than pakistan. Its people are also poorer.

P.S; Btw, your new found (phony) compassion for the poor of Bangladesh and Peru moves my heart!

I am not compassionate to these countries, I am only asking you to be equally (if not more) compassionate to them, not just to pakistan.