ganeshran Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 I am not comparing the working conditions. I am pointing out the double standards in - not choosing to use crackers on moral grounds ( that many of them might be coming from factories employing child labor in poor conditions) and advertising it to others as if, by doing so you are on higher moral ground than others. Whereas on the other hand, you choose to ignore the very same moral grounds while using other items (iphone/laptops/electronics), that you can not live w/o. On the point of 'reputed brands' have better checks.. They just complete the documentation required by their local laws. When it comes to getting cheaper parts from China/Taiwan, businesses don't give a fvck about working conditions at those factories. I haven't heard many examples of them shutting their supply chains on moral grounds. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/7330986/Apple-admits-using-child-labour.html As for the comparison of working conditions - when it is about cheap/child labour, it is most certainly going to be characterized by conditions not suitable for health, and long term side effects...be it a fireworks factory or electronics factory. Which is why I said, a murder is a murder - regardless of the method. e.g. excerpt from the above link - Again you are comparing apples and oranges simply by your usual strategy of taking a contradictory position for the sake of it and then pushing the debate in a tangential direction and advertising your ability to be able to justify anything. Firstly I dont use Apple products, but yes there might be electronics components in my gadgets that are produced in chinese factories which have poor working conditions. But working conditions in Electronics and firecracker factories is a poor comparison simply because of the vast difference in the factory environment. This is how chemicals are handled in firecracker factories. If conditions are similar in electronics factories in China, I will certainly stop using my gadgets too. The inflammable material concentration in the air in these factories is sub human. it goes in their system and causes them respiratory ailments. These children work for 18 hours a day from morning 3AM to 10PM every day. This was carried out in the notorious town of Sivakasi in Tamilnadu state, where about 45,000-50,000 children are believed to be working in the fireworks and match industries. There is no obvious trade-union presence. The investigators were presented to owners or managers at the factories as relatives or friends from outside Tamilnadu who were on holiday and interested in seeing how matches and fireworks were made. Their guides asked them not to mention in their reports the names of the factories they had visited. Why? "If the employers came to know that they had helped us, concealing our identity," the investigators reported, "they feared they might be in serious trouble and their lives might be in danger." In half a dozen cases, that fear was unfounded because these factories bore no name board identifying the owners. Some of the families which depend on child labour to support them fail to provide two square meals a day. One 12-year-old girl told an interviewer that she was given only two dishes of gruel a day. Factories work a 10-12 hour day, seven days a week, and longer during the peak pre-Diwali period. 'The children are brought in from Kamaraj in the morning, after being woken up as early as 3 am. They get home as late as 10 pm. Their buses are crammed and many children stand for the journey of two or three hours. Hide in the store-room When an inspector visits a factory, childworkers are bundled into store-rooms and sheds and told to stay there until he goes. The inspector will catch one or two of them only if he is quick or lucky. If he catches workers who look under-age, the onus of proving this is on him. There are many fatal accidents at Sivakasi. This is because unregistered match and fireworks factories are not covered by the safety laws. Match factories are supposed to have rubber floors, but the investigators found none. At one mini-factory, little more than a large shed, they found highly inflammable chemicals dispersed around the working area with little thought for fire protection; the entire shed looked as if it would be gutted in seconds if it caught fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Panther Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Poor children^...My heart goes out for them yaar, i was hearing that children were not used for the production of crackers. But if this is true, then i am completely in favour of boycotting crackers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 ^ why don't you guys make a new thread on Child Labour . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahul Dravid Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 kab aya diwali aur kab gaya... :( family bhi nahi saath.. china be atka hoon... these are the moments that really hurt being away from hoome :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akshayxyz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Again you are comparing apples and oranges simply by your usual strategy of taking a contradictory position for the sake of it and then pushing the debate in a tangential direction and advertising your ability to be able to justify anything. Firstly I dont use Apple products, but yes there might be electronics components in my gadgets that are produced in chinese factories which have poor working conditions. But working conditions in Electronics and firecracker factories is a poor comparison simply because of the vast difference in the factory environment. This is how chemicals are handled in firecracker factories. If conditions are similar in electronics factories in China, I will certainly stop using my gadgets too. The inflammable material concentration in the air in these factories is sub human. it goes in their system and causes them respiratory ailments. These children work for 18 hours a day from morning 3AM to 10PM every day. You do not get the point. As I said, I am just pointing out the double standards in your decisions based on morality/whatever. Just as you felt like telling the world that you made some 'better' moral choice, I felt like reminding you about reality of double standards in every one of us. I have no strategy/agenda here. I am just allergic to the preaching stuff based on 'moral grounds'. You were not exactly preaching explicitly, but your post about - shunning crackers based on likelihood of those crackers coming from sub-human working conditions, esp. in a Diwali celebration thread - did smell of some preaching. Just as every time a non-veg doesn't liked to be preached about animal-cruelty (especially having his meal), people who are enjoying crackers may not want to be preached about cracker-factory working conditions, on Diwali day. The discussion should better be left to some other occasion/context. - IMO. In the context of point I am trying to make - it is immaterial whether working conditions in electronic factories are worse/better than firecracker factories. Electronics was just one of the many examples, there are 10s of products you might be using daily, that come from not-acceptable working conditions, and in many cases involving child labor. Do you scrutinize supply chain of every item you use with same moral barometer? And where do you draw the line? You have every right to be selective about which one you consider not-so-harmless, and which ones you boycott on 'moral grounds'. And similarly others have their own perception and choices. Anyway, ultimately it is about being at peace with whatever you do/think - based on your then database of information. And letting people enjoy their festivities, and leave these moral discussions for some other time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vvvslaxman Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Awesome to watch the pics :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 You do not get the point. As I said, I am just pointing out the double standards in your decisions based on morality/whatever. Just as you felt like telling the world that you made some 'better' moral choice, I felt like reminding you about reality of double standards in every one of us. I have no strategy/agenda here. I am just allergic to the preaching stuff based on 'moral grounds'. You were not exactly preaching explicitly, but your post about - shunning crackers based on likelihood of those crackers coming from sub-human working conditions, esp. in a Diwali celebration thread - did smell of some preaching. Just as every time a non-veg doesn't liked to be preached about animal-cruelty (especially having his meal), people who are enjoying crackers may not want to be preached about cracker-factory working conditions, on Diwali day. The discussion should better be left to some other occasion/context. - IMO. Its hard to believe the absence of an agenda, because you love to play the devil's advocate on every debate that comes up. Its usually refreshing to get a counter opinion but to see someone overdoing for the sake of it gets tiresome. The discussion comes on Diwali day, because that is only the time in the whole year most of us use firecrackers. Having interacted with the families of those who have worked in cracker factories, I feel strongly about this issue. Even then, I didnt point to anyone specifically and say - what you are doing is wrong and you shouldnt do it. Just posted on what happens in those industries. If it was factually wrong, I will retract my post and apologize. It is not a proper comparison with veg- non veg debate, because as I have mentioned in those threads too, ending a life is imperative to food consumption be it plant of animal. A more logical comparison could be to end animal life for pleasure (i.e. hunting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akshayxyz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 You still don't get it. Its hard to believe the absence of an agenda, because you love to play the devil's advocate on every debate that comes up. Its usually refreshing to get a counter opinion but to see someone overdoing for the sake of it gets tiresome. Of course it is not entirely correct to say that I had no agenda. But, how was this case of taking contradictory position/devil's advocate? It was you, who passed that comment with some agenda of educating people about immorality of playing with crackers. And I did not oppose your decision, or support work-env in those factories. I just wanted to oppose your "act of passing comment on morality" in, what I think was wrong place & time to do so. So, my response was just reactionary, as I said I am allergic to moral/preachy comments, esp when people are enjoying certain stuff. And as I accepted, yes, you were not explicitly preaching - but, it may be just be, I found it in such tone. The discussion comes on Diwali day, because that is only the time in the whole year most of us use firecrackers. Having interacted with the families of those who have worked in cracker factories, I feel strongly about this issue. Even then, I didnt point to anyone specifically and say - what you are doing is wrong and you shouldnt do it. Just posted on what happens in those industries. If it was factually wrong, I will retract my post and apologize. From my experience, it is wise to avoid passing preachy comments when majority of people are clearly not in mood of such moral/philosophical debates - however strongly you may feel about the issue. It is just a suggestion, take it or you will learn with time. Also, I never contended about factual correctness/wrongness of your post. It is not a proper comparison with veg- non veg debate, because as I have mentioned in those threads too, ending a life is imperative to food consumption be it plant of animal. A more logical comparison could be to end animal life for pleasure (i.e. hunting) You did not get my analogy, because you did not try to. Without further using any analogies, let me just close this by re-stating the points I was trying to make. a) It is not wise to try invoking discussions about morality on festive moments. b) It is good that you feel happy about boycotting crackers, but it would be delusional to think that every product that you consume is clear on moral scale, in fact that is practically impossible in real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 You still don't get it. Of course it is not entirely correct to say that I had no agenda. But, how was this case of taking contradictory position/devil's advocate? It was you, who passed that comment with some agenda of educating people about immorality of playing with crackers. And I did not oppose your decision, or support work-env in those factories. I just opposed your passing comment in, what I think was wrong place to do so. So, my response was just reactionary, as I said I am allergic to moral/preachy comments, esp when people are enjoying certain stuff. And as I accepted, yes, you were not explicitly preaching - but, it may be just be, I found it in such tone. My comment was a factual statement that made no moral judgement whatsoever and it was you who made a straw man out of it and argued against something it wasnt. I remember you had done the same thing in 2-3 other threads too (IIM student suicide thread IIRC). Assume a position that someone else is taking and then debate nonsensically for 20-30 arguing tangential to the original topic. You did not get my analogy, because you did not try to. Without further using any analogies, let me just close this by re-stating the points I was trying to make. a) It is not wise to try invoking discussions about morality on festive moments. b) It is good that you feel happy about boycotting crackers, but it would be delusional to think that every product that you consume is clear on moral scale, in fact that is practically impossible in real world. It was you who invoked the discussion about the relative morality of electronic and firecracker factories - check the thread. I just made a factual assertion. I never said that every product I consume is clear on a moral scale. Again, this is something you are assuming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punjabi_khota Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Guys, time to kiss and make out up. :nice: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b555 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 anar and chakri are my favorites too ! no crackers here though :( will be celebrating with friends this weekend !!! why? not allowed or banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akshayxyz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 My comment was a factual statement that made no moral judgement whatsoever and it was you who made a straw man out of it and argued against something it wasnt. I remember you had done the same thing in 2-3 other threads too (IIM student suicide thread IIRC). Assume a position that someone else is taking and then debate nonsensically for 20-30 arguing tangential to the original topic. It was you who invoked the discussion about the relative morality of electronic and firecracker factories - check the thread. I just made a factual assertion. I never said that every product I consume is clear on a moral scale. Again, this is something you are assuming. You are still trying to defend that you had no agenda? Go through the flow of thread - created by yourself!!. when everybody is exchanging festive messages, how misplaced your "factual/trivia comment" is... It is clear that either you had some agenda, or just random brain-fart. I found it annoying and childish, and I started with equally random query on related factual stuff - and you were quite predictable from there on. Once again - there is nothing wrong in your choice and the fact you stated, it was just wrong place/time. -IMO. If you feel so strongly about certain issue, and want to do something about it, be heard - then this is not the best way to do so, in fact, one of the least productive way - and sometimes it might land you in embarrassing situation, or lead to un-necessary, unproductive discussions - such as this. If you still don't see the light, then no issues, you shall see some in future. :two_thumbs_up: (and yes, I will see my share of it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda-esque Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Amazed at the amount of pontification on an innocuous "Happy Diwali" thread... Happy Diwali Guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 You are still trying to defend that you had no agenda? Go through the flow of thread - created by yourself!!. when everybody is exchanging festive messages, how misplaced your "factual/trivia comment" is... It is clear that either you had some agenda, or just random brain-fart. I found it annoying and childish, and I started with equally random query on related factual stuff - and you were quite predictable from there on. Once again - there is nothing wrong in your choice and the fact you stated, it was just wrong place/time. -IMO. If you feel so strongly about certain issue, and want to do something about it, be heard - then this is not the best way to do so, in fact, one of the least productive way - and sometimes it might land you in embarrassing situation, or lead to un-necessary, unproductive discussions - such as this. If you still don't see the light, then no issues, you shall see some in future. :two_thumbs_up: (and yes, I will see my share of it) You are talking about unnecessary , unproductive discussions :hysterical::hysterical: Anyways carry on.. hope you see the light too:two_thumbs_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akshayxyz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Amazed at the amount of pontification on an innocuous "Happy Diwali" thread... Happy Diwali Guys! In my defense - khaali dimaag shaitan ka ghar :winky: Anyway, aaj ka shaitaani session is over. until next time. Happy Diwali :two_thumbs_up: You are talking about unnecessary , unproductive discussions :hysterical: Of course for me it was unproductive, as I seem to have failed to impart some wisdom to you. But I hope for you that you were successful at creating an army for patakhey-bahishkar-andolan towards upliftment of those unfortunate families - by your well thought and strategically timed factually correct post. :two_thumbs_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Of course for me it was unproductive Wont be the first time, and I pretty sure wont be the last either. :giggle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akshayxyz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Wont be the first time' date=' and I pretty sure wont be the last either. :giggle:[/quote'] क्या करें, नालायक छात्रों के सामने हार मान्ने में ही बुद्धिमानी है. :--D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 क्या करें' date=' नालायक छात्रों के सामने हार मान्ने में ही बुद्धिमानी है. :--D[/quote'] हर बेवकूफ अपने आप को बुद्धिमान ही समझता है Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 क्या करें' date=' नालायक छात्रों के सामने हार [b']मान्ने में ही बुद्धिमानी है. :--D :headshake: मानने Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akshayxyz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 हर बेवकूफ अपने आप को बुद्धिमान ही समझता है नादान बालक, आपको खासकर इस क्षेत्र (कटाक्ष और उपहास वगरेह करने) में मेहनत की घनी आवश्यकता है. :headshake: मानने was too lazy to fix the transliteration error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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