Sachin v/s Lax for Carnish

[rkt.india]

What's the harm in accepting that VVS is a better 2nd innings batsman than Sachin? Sachin has himself played some amazing knocks in the 2nd innings but VVS has perhaps surpassed him especially after his effort sin the last 12-18 months. Doesn't take anything away from Sachin's greatness and adds to the aura of VVS.

Agree.

[CSK Fan]

Can't reply in the same manner you did. And I never said 60 = 100. Worth was the word.

But why? In all of those innings, if the team hadnt set up runs in the first innings, we would still have lost. I know the pressure of the 4th innings is different and thats when the game becomes more interesting and the fans emotionally involved. But you are converting emotions to worth here. Thats like thinking only the 4th racer of a relay race is the greatest because he is the one crossing the finish line. Many of the scores in the first innings are equally important and there is a different kind of pressure in the first innings, particularly overseas BTW, IMO Laxman peaked quite late in his career, otherwise he would have a similar or better overall average than Sachin

[rkt.india]

Here is another innings considered by many to be one the best ever played : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63557.html Notice how Gooch stands heads and shoulders above everyone else in the match in difficult batting conditions facing an attack of Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, and Patterson. But it's "absurd" because Tendulkar has never done anything similar.

what about these 2 innings? For me, there are the best knocks one has played in my 15 years of watching cricket. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/239923.html

[akshayxyz]

Absolutely. Sachin is a class apart player no doubt, but when it comes to crunch situations VVS delivers more often than not. As some one pointed out, in one of his Interviews VVS said that he loves to bat and tackle the pressure situation and win/save it for the team. A contrary perspective would be why VVS doesn't deliver when the team is in no trouble (1st Innings) ? So that's the way both of them play. Can't take even a bit away from those two stalwarts. VVS always goes un-noticed (or less noticed) merely because of his stats (hundreds particularly). But people don't notice that the runs he scores (the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s) in crisis is worth a 200.

We are back to this nonsense again.. Outsider, Ragahv - you failed!!!

[CSK Fan]

The next highest score in the entire match from both sides was 39. The third highest was again by Laxman - 38. As great as the 136 at Chennai was it wasn't even the highest score of the match.

Ok, one question though. Do the quality of the bowlers of both the teams come into consideration? For example Perth 92. What if Indian bowlers were decidingly average not taking advantage of a good bowling pitch while the opposition bowlers were lethal? Does that count? Does Sachin standing alone when no one else from the team scored count as a great knock? Or does the other team also need to collapse for the knock to be considered valuable? This doesnt sound fair to me as they are not facing the same set of bowlers Australia might have had great bowlers while India would be bowling spinners on the same wicket. So considering scores from the opposition is not right IMO BTW, some of Sachin's innings which can be in the running here http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991-92/IND_IN_AUS/IND_AUS_T5_01-05FEB1992.html Perth 92, - 100 for 3 to losing next 5 wickets for 59. Sachin scores 114 out of 140 runs on Australia's fastest wicket http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63713.html Edgbaston 96 - 3rd innings. No other Indian batsman reached even 20 runs while Sachin scored 122 http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_02-06JAN1997.html 169 in Cape town when the team was 58 for 5 Please note that we are only discussing these innings when compared to Laxman's 96. the 281 might be the best innings by any batsmen anywhere

[akshayxyz]

Ok, one question though. Do the quality of the bowlers of both the teams come into consideration? For example Perth 92. What if Indian bowlers were decidingly average not taking advantage of a good bowling pitch while the opposition bowlers were lethal? Does that count? Does Sachin standing alone when no one else from the team scored count as a great knock? Or does the other team also need to collapse for the knock to be considered valuable? This doesnt sound fair to me as they are not facing the same set of bowlers Australia might have had great bowlers while India would be bowling spinners on the same wicket. So considering scores from the opposition is not right IMO BTW, some of Sachin's innings which can be in the running here http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991-92/IND_IN_AUS/IND_AUS_T5_01-05FEB1992.html Perth 92, - 100 for 3 to losing next 5 wickets for 59. Sachin scores 114 out of 140 runs on Australia's fastest wicket http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63713.html Edgbaston 96 - 3rd innings. No other Indian batsman reached even 20 runs while Sachin scored 122 http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_02-06JAN1997.html 169 in Cape town when the team was 58 for 5 Please note that we are only discussing these innings when compared to Laxman's 96. the 281 might be the best innings by any batsmen anywhere

This one I can guess (experts' opinions) - even Azhar scored 100.. big deal!!!.. besides it was first innings. Personally, I would say his first test 100 for draw against Eng - was better than this 169.

[The Outsider]

MTC, thanks for one of the few sane replies I've got in the thread. I'll reply in a bit more length as to why I consider Laxman's 96 better than the Tendulkar innings you've listed and we might choose to disagree, but it's refreshing to see at least someone get the crux of my posts in the thread. But just a brief comment - that 122 at Manchester was absolutely incredible. One of my favorites! And very underrated as far as people discussing Tendulkar knocks go.

[mani0993]

Thats like thinking only the 4th racer of a relay race is the greatest because he is the one crossing the finish line.

For me both are greats of the game. I didn't say Laxman is better than Sachin even when stating his last innings achievements. But I do have a problem with VVS & RSD (to some extent) being left out of the bandwagon of the Greatest batsman. People look at stats and decide far too casually.

[Vijay.Sharma]

the thread was started for me and since i decided that i dont want to argue or check who is better between laxman and sachu... others take over... i mean what is it... everyone just wants comparisions.. and vijayji about selective memory i agree i have a selective memory.... thanks for reminding me..:--D

The only reason I did that little stat thingy was because I wanted to know how they really compared. And you had promised to do it in the other thread (albeit on the next day of the day you said you would). So I waited for you to come up with it for 2-3 days and then I thought screw it lemme do it myself.

[Vijay.Sharma]

Did Lax fail today, or is today's innings ignored? How about Rahul? For sure Sachin failed!

[Vijay.Sharma]

I do not think he is slightly better IMO to me decidedly better than SRT or for that matter other batsman too based on the fact he has the knack of coming up with these gems in difficult conditions and team ended up winning. Here are some other of VVS's 2nd inning(3rd or 4th match innings) heroics which helped India win close games outside of Eden 281 and Durban 96. Mohali 73* vs Aus Port of Spain 74 vs WI Perth 79 vs Aus Colombo 103* vs SL Johhanesburg 73 vs SA Mumbai 69 vs Aus. Chennai 66 vs Aus It will be very tough to come up with such a list for any of the batsman in team wins like the ones VVS had in recent memory. Instead of making it a comparison between players why can't we accept that VVS has been the best man to perform under crisis in which we won close games.

Look, if you want a list then here you go for 3rd and 4th innings - 119* Manchester v Eng 90 (saved the game) 104* Colombo v SL 93 (set up the 3rd innings for Indian victory) 85 Mumbai v WI 94 (set up the 3rd innings for Indian victory) 122 Birmingham v Eng 96 (second highest score 18, India lost) 155* Chennai v Aus 98 (set up the 3rd innings for Indian victory) 113 Wellington v NZ 99 (second highest score 48, India lost) 136 Chennai v Pak 99 (that one) 52 Melbourne v Aus 99 (the top 2 scores in the whole game was from him 116 and 52...same case like Lax's 96 and 38. The difference? Lax had Sreesanth, and Zak to make a fight whereas Sachin's teammates went hiding) 65 Mumbai v Aus 2001 (again top 2 scores in the match from him) 55 Mumbai v Aus 2004 (same game where Lax scored 69) ....alright I am tired of doing this anymore. I already told you that I consider Lax slightly better than Sachin. Now dont start digging into this innings and that innings coz there would be no end to it. Fact is that both of them have played gems and have won games. The difference between them ain't so great that one is can be considered head and shoulders above the other.

[zen]

another weird comparision b/w tests vs 4*4 relay! .... Anyone who actually ran a4*4 and played cric should tell the diff. B/ w running the 4 th leg vs batting in 3rd or 4th inng Ps something more for your grandsons to laugh at

[CSK Fan]

another weird comparision b/w tests vs 4*4 relay! .... Anyone who actually ran a4*4 and played cric should tell the diff. B/ w running the 4 th leg vs batting in 3rd or 4th inng Ps something more for your grandsons to laugh at

Yes I am good at them. But you seem to have taken the RPT joke to heart. Thats nothing personal, didnt mean to demean anyone

[zen]

Yes I am good at them. But you seem to have taken the RPT joke to heart. Thats nothing personal' date=' didnt mean to demean anyone[/quote'] I m kid din, nothing is taken to the heart FYI, test cricket is unlike many other sports. The conditions and pressure level keeps on changing. In relay, you are doing your part once in a race where the conditions are the same whether you start or finish. The pressure level is also the same as if you drop the baton or slip at any stage the game is over .... The pressure and conditions being discussed is more like different levels of hurdles set up for different legs with the last leg having the most hurdles. And each runner runs all the four legs

[The Outsider]

Ok, one question though. Do the quality of the bowlers of both the teams come into consideration? For example Perth 92. What if Indian bowlers were decidingly average not taking advantage of a good bowling pitch while the opposition bowlers were lethal? Does that count? Does Sachin standing alone when no one else from the team scored count as a great knock? Or does the other team also need to collapse for the knock to be considered valuable? This doesnt sound fair to me as they are not facing the same set of bowlers Australia might have had great bowlers while India would be bowling spinners on the same wicket. So considering scores from the opposition is not right IMO BTW, some of Sachin's innings which can be in the running here http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991-92/IND_IN_AUS/IND_AUS_T5_01-05FEB1992.html Perth 92, - 100 for 3 to losing next 5 wickets for 59. Sachin scores 114 out of 140 runs on Australia's fastest wicket http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63713.html Edgbaston 96 - 3rd innings. No other Indian batsman reached even 20 runs while Sachin scored 122 http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_02-06JAN1997.html 169 in Cape town when the team was 58 for 5 Please note that we are only discussing these innings when compared to Laxman's 96. the 281 might be the best innings by any batsmen anywhere

Can we agree that Indian bowling has generally been mediocre to good and never rising in the very good to excellent category? If yes, then at Perth we had Kapil (at the best I saw him bowling post the '89 series against WI), Prabhakar (had a huge series against Pakistan in '90 establishing himself as someone who could reverse swing), and Srinath (a promising and untested player). I don't know if you watched that match, I did and the pitch had awesome bounce and carry but was never as tricky as Durban. Manchester was simply great - for me, I rank it better or equivalent to the Chennai 136 and that's saying something. However, we are stuck with the same conundrum of other batsmen having done reasonably okay in the match - Srinath had a half century. And sorry, but Cape Town for me was not even the best innings of the match - that was played by Azhar. I know that there are some subjective criteria in my ranking above but quite are objective as well and the subjective ones are not totally out of the ball park.

[akshayxyz]

Did Lax fail today' date=' or is today's innings ignored? How about Rahul? For sure Sachin failed![/quote'] It is not difficult to imagine the scene at ICF/world-over.. had Laxman seen us through the end, or SRT had gotten out at crucial stage like Kohli/Laxman.

[The Outsider]

It is not difficult to imagine the scene at ICF/world-over.. had Laxman seen us through the end' date=' or SRT had gotten out at crucial stage like Kohli/Laxman.[/quote'] So, we are down to rejoicing Laxman's failures to glorify Tendulkar?

[akshayxyz]

Yes I am good at them. But you seem to have taken the RPT joke to heart. Thats nothing personal' date=' didnt mean to demean anyone[/quote'] It would be most fun, if his son/grandson discover the RPT thread - and knowing dear daddy's passion for cricket, go back to share the joke with rett-pa, unaware of the fact that dear daddy was the chief architect...

[SachDan]

It would be most fun' date=' if his son/grandson discover the RPT thread - and knowing dear daddy's passion for cricket, go back to share the joke with rett-pa, unaware of the fact that dear daddy was the chief architect...[/quote'] :giggle:

[akshayxyz]

So' date=' we are down to rejoicing Laxman's failures to glorify Tendulkar?[/quote'] Which part of my post made you think so - not just here, you are free to search all over ICF, match thread, old posts...? Is it difficult to understand that the sole intention was - how one guy is under the microscope for every single time, while others (esp the crutch situation specialist) get away with lesser criticism. And yes, today Laxman was bigger culprit, he had good start, well set and got out to a horrible shot.