Indian Trundlers take note

[msb1991]

Only by exceptional bowlers of the calibre of Hadlee and MCgrath.How many bowlers of such calibre?

By what measure are we to judge a medium pace to average a perfectly capable 27 in Test cricket rather than the near 20 of Mcgrath and Hadlee? Or as a medium pacer, are you either great or nothing? Such a scenario seems implausible.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

By what measure are we to judge a medium pace to average a perfectly capable 27 in Test cricket rather than the near 20 of Mcgrath and Hadlee? Or as a medium pacer' date=' are you either great or nothing? Such a scenario seems implausible.[/quote'] I am sure you are quite aware that no medium pacer from India has avgd 27 in tests.Its normally 30 or 30+.

[msb1991]

I am sure you are quite aware that no medium pacer from India has avgd 27 in tests.Its normally 30 or 30+.

You've dodged by point by picking on an irrelevant detail. There are no Mcgraths and Hadlees in Indian domestic cricket. But by eliminating medium pacers from selection considerations, you overlook the possibility that there is a bowler who can average 10 more than Mcgrath or Hadlee did. They would not quite be Mcgrath or Hadlee, they would be much worse. But they would still be a solid Test bowler.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

You've dodged by point by picking on an irrelevant detail. There are no Mcgraths and Hadlees in Indian domestic cricket. But by eliminating medium pacers from selection considerations' date=' you overlook the possibility that there is a bowler who can average 10 more than Mcgrath or Hadlee did. They would not quite be Mcgrath or Hadlee, they would be much worse. But they would still be a solid Test bowler.[/quote'] 10 more than Mcgrath and Hadlee would be 31-32 in tests.We have had such trundling superstars in our team for years,it specifically to avoid them that we are looking to get faster and better bowlers. Thats pretty avg bowling,here we are talking of trying to find bowlers who can avg sub 30 or even better sub 25.

[pensionplan]

Only by exceptional bowlers of the calibre of Hadlee and MCgrath.How many bowlers of such calibre?

The sad part is folks do not realize what a great bowler our own Kapil Dev is a master of his craft bowling for most part in less favorable sub-continental conditions on unresponsive tracks. Ofcourse that does not mean he is better than Hadlee but nevertheless a great bowler in his own right operating at similar speeds.

[msb1991]

10 more than Mcgrath and Hadlee would be 31-32 in tests.We have had such trundling superstars in our team for years' date='it specifically to avoid them that we are looking to get faster and better bowlers.[/quote'] So you want someone of the speed of Brett Lee, who averages less than him? Someone of the speed of Thomson and better quality? Someone with the speed of Tait, but the ability to play Test cricket? Or do you want bowlers of genuine quality? The search of 'faster and better bowlers' has caused us to select time and again, the likes of Sreesanth who averages near 40, Mithun who is awful (not even quick, but almost certainly selected on promise of pace) at the expense of Praveen, who is actually good!

[Malcolm Merlyn]

The sad part is folks do not realize what a great bowler our own Kapil Dev is a master of his craft bowling for most part in less favorable sub-continental conditions on unresponsive tracks. Ofcourse that does not mean he is better than Hadlee but nevertheless a great bowler in his own right operating at similar speeds.

well for a significant part of his career Kapil avgd 26-27 It was only when he started to play despite being over the hill that he avgd 29.

[MCcricket]

well for a significant part of his career Kapil avgd 26-27 It was only when he started to play despite being over the hill that he avgd 29.

The problem with Kapil and Sreenath was no support at atll from the other end, fast bowlers being used as stock bowlers and no support staff with experience, bowling expertise,Kapil was g8 in first half , Sreenath in 2 nd half of his career.Kapil with Sreenath at other end, or Zak, with Sreenath, would have been a different story.The point in choosing bowlers for test's is to ear mark the right bowlers with potential then give them a chance like the batsmen that we try out so we can identify and find a strike bowler, bowler with pace, skills, trundlers cannot win test matches same way as sloggers cannot bat in test's.The problem lies with the selectors , as we have talent, but they keep selecting the no hoppers as bench players for bowlers,ala Mithun, VK,give Dinda, Gony, Pathan , tYAGI A CHANCE AS THEY HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL AND HAVE PACE, SKILLS, SAMER FOR NECHIM, SHAMI, A AHMED,SHUKLA, even if a trundler is very good like PK he is still dependent on conditions, I think doubters would be happy with a lineup of VK, Mithun, PK, LOL, maybe we can compete against Bangladesh then lol:weights::hmmm::nervous::omg:

[rkt.india]

The sad part is folks do not realize what a great bowler our own Kapil Dev is a master of his craft bowling for most part in less favorable sub-continental conditions on unresponsive tracks. Ofcourse that does not mean he is better than Hadlee but nevertheless a great bowler in his own right operating at similar speeds.

Then even Imran, Wasim, and Waqar, etc.

[CSK Fan]

I am sure you are quite aware that no medium pacer from India has avgd 27 in tests.Its normally 30 or 30+.

No bowler from India has averaged 27. Period. Fast or slow, medium or spinner

[CSK Fan]

You guys clearly dont understand the importance of line and length

An Ode to Line and Length

I am a line and length bowler yes am proud of it A trundler in a world of speed-guns A complete misfit When the captain needs a change of end Or wants to slow down the play He turns to me everytime 25 overs a day And while other bowlers stare the batsman down After a great ball, I am the only one able to Do it before it reaches him at all I am able to swing it both ways But no one can ever tell Because the batsman just plonks out his foot And waits and waits the entire spell So this is me, thats who I am Every captain's bane A 6 feet 5, line and length bowler Ordinary and mundane I run in from the boundry rope Wide muscles, popping veins And the crowd all chant in unison Built like Tarzan, bowls like Jane Yes, built like Tarzan, bowls like Jane

[ganeshran]

Built like Tarzan, bowls like Jane

:hysterical::hysterical:

[CSK Fan]

:hysterical::hysterical:

Actually not my own, it was Ponting's quote for Tait

[ganeshran]

For Tait? are you sure? - He was one of the fastest bowlers in the world

[CSK Fan]

For Tait? are you sure? - He was one of the fastest bowlers in the world

Actual quote was, built like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Was on cricinfo http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=138284

[msb1991]

For Tait? are you sure? - He was one of the fastest bowlers in the world

Yes. But he wasn't very good at Test cricket!

[ganeshran]

Actual quote was, built like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Was on cricinfo http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=138284

Ah, this makes more sense.

Yes. But he wasn't very good at Test cricket!

Ya, I mistook the quote for "bowls like Jane", the reference to the lady being to ridicule his bowling speed.

[express bowling]

What do you mean' date=' 'hurry batsmen'? That is a misnomer completely. Batsmen bat on bowling machines regularly at 145kph if not more. It is movement or pace of over 150kph which rushes batsmen. And if anyone tries to argue that an international batsman can consistently adjust to seam movement if a ball is delivered at 125kph, don't make me laugh. The idea of playing the ball off the pitch at that speed is ludicrous. Just watch the batsmen flounder at good seam bowling at that speed with Walsh (2000 against England) and Mcgrath (2006/7 against England).[/quote'] You are confusing the concept of "hurrying batsmen" with "beating them by pace" consistently. When a batsman is hurried he does not necessarily miss the ball but gets little time to play it. If that delivery has movement and is accurately bowled then the batsman has real difficulty playing it. An international batsman is often hurried at 135 k + or by steep bounce at even lesser pace. ( like Zaheer hurried and beat Hussey by a bouncer at 135 k in the first Aus test when Hussey was declared out ). No matter how much you practice against a bowling machine human beings do not get too much time to play a 85 mph or more delivery. That is a human limitation and they have little time to react. A couple of aspects that people tend to ignore are -- Experience. Experienced pacers who have bowled for 8/10 yrs or more in international cricket have often succeeded at around 130 k pace. The only real substitute for pace can be experience for a skilled and thinking bowler. -- Steep bounce especially from a tall bowler. Steep bounce from a tall deck hitting bowler is often more uncomfortable for a batsman than pace in the air. In this age of speed guns, ability to get steep bounce is often ignored by the fans and selectors alike. Walsh, McGrath, Pollock --- all these bowlers have succeeded at 130 k ONLY at the absolute ends of their careers but they were all tall pacers who got steep bounce and were tremendously experienced and skilled. In a nutshell -- unless a pacer has a lot of experience it is better that he bowls at 135 k or more ( preferably 140 k+ ) if he wants to be a strike bowler. Even experienced bowlers perform better if they have either pace or bounce. A pacer should strive for both pace and skill and should not sacrifice one for the other. Pace/bounce, accuracy and, movement are not either / or qualities for a strike bowler. When all these qualities come together then we have strike bowlers like Steyn, Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Ambrose, Lilee, Wasim, Waqar etc etc.

[MCcricket]

It is simple u need pace to be a successfull test bowler, the bowler has to prize the wicket as the batsmen will not take risk like in ODI,have we seen any trundlers in top 30 best all time bowlers, a bowler at sub par speeds might be successfull ocassionally based on condtions suiting him , in general he will not run into sides or have a low strike rate , as he will mostly get wickets thru batsmens mistakes, in a test it is a mind game between bowling fuller , seaming swinging, then bowling a bouncer to push the batsmen back and induce the mistakes as batsmen will not move his feet on a fuller bowl then. I would have a rookie with pace in a test over a trundler any day, but once past 140 k, pace is not everything as u have seen , very skillfull bowlers bowling at 135 to 140k, are as effective, thru seam , swing, use of wrist to bowl surprise delivery, this is what Zaheer does, to me he is wonderful to watch , him and Steyn,to be selected for test's a bowler should be bowling minimum around 135 k, ideally should be 140 k and above A BOWLER WILL SLOW DOWN WITH AGE AT A LATER STAGE, even Zaheer bowled in 140's for a long time in his career, as vouched for by Ganguly. For any bowler to be successful in test's he should be fast mediumish minimum, same for a batsmen he should know how to handle a short ball either by being a good leaver or a good player of hook or pull shot,this is the reason why VK, MITHUN, Kohli should be replaced by Dinda, Gony, Rohit , although Virat is talented I am not sure how much he will improve in this aspect, Rohit looks more ready for test's , probably by the end of this test series we might see Rohit, same with Dhoni , I will be pleasantly surprised if he scores in Australia, Hopefully he backs himself and plays aggressive , as his defense is not good , not does he have technique for faster , bouncy tracks.

[Needforspeed]

It is simple u need pace to be a successfull test bowler, the bowler has to prize the wicket as the batsmen will not take risk like in ODI,have we seen any trundlers in top 30 best all time bowlers, a bowler at sub par speeds might be successfull ocassionally based on condtions suiting him , in general he will not run into sides or have a low strike rate , as he will mostly get wickets thru batsmens mistakes, in a test it is a mind game between bowling fuller , seaming swinging, then bowling a bouncer to push the batsmen back and induce the mistakes as batsmen will not move his feet on a fuller bowl then. I would have a rookie with pace in a test over a trundler any day, but once past 140 k, pace is not everything as u have seen , very skillfull bowlers bowling at 135 to 140k, are as effective, thru seam , swing, use of wrist to bowl surprise delivery, this is what Zaheer does, to me he is wonderful to watch , him and Steyn,to be selected for test's a bowler should be bowling minimum around 135 k, ideally should be 140 k and above A BOWLER WILL SLOW DOWN WITH AGE AT A LATER STAGE, even Zaheer bowled in 140's for a long time in his career, as vouched for by Ganguly. For any bowler to be successful in test's he should be fast mediumish minimum, same for a batsmen he should know how to handle a short ball either by being a good leaver or a good player of hook or pull shot,this is the reason why VK, MITHUN, Kohli should be replaced by Dinda, Gony, Rohit , although Virat is talented I am not sure how much he will improve in this aspect, Rohit looks more ready for test's , probably by the end of this test series we might see Rohit, same with Dhoni , I will be pleasantly surprised if he scores in Australia, Hopefully he backs himself and plays aggressive , as his defense is not good , not does he have technique for faster , bouncy tracks.

:dito: