Indian bowling has gone to the dogs

[Marut]

Indian bowling has gone to the dogs - But when was it not with the dogs? Are we forgetting that the best bowling averages of a regular Indian bowler is 28,71 by Bedi. Kapildev at 29.55 is regarded as one of our best bowlers, this should tell a story. Zaheer Khan at 31.78 should tell you amother story. All top teams have several bowlers within the 25 category and a few others with 20-22. We were always a crap bowling side by global standards. Rarely have we had bowlers who can change a match on its head by bowling, except perhaps on minefields.

[jairamesh]

Indian bowling has gone to the dogs - But when was it not with the dogs? Are we forgetting that the best bowling averages of a regular Indian bowler is 28' date='71 by Bedi. Kapildev at 29.55 is regarded as one of our best bowlers, this should tell a story. Zaheer Khan at 31.78 should tell you amother story. All top teams have several bowlers within the 25 category and a few others with 20-22. We were always a crap bowling side by global standards. Rarely have we had bowlers who can change a match on its head by bowling, except perhaps on minefields.[/quote'] Praveen Kumar I think has got around 25:dance: But yeah, your point is valid, it's shame we haven't produced hardly any bowlers with sub-30 average, well it's scandalous tbh.

[rkt.india]

The Bangladesh performance was a good bowling performance though. Munaf is a good economical bowler. Agreed. Disagree that we need two good frontline fast bowlers though. Munaf is fine to take the new ball. In the World Cup final' date= he played with effectively one bowler to support him (Zaheer, because Sreesanth was terrible) and he did fine. I think it is necessary he proves his fitness first. We agree that he is good, not great at ODI bowling though and I think anything else is splitting hairs at this moment. But Vinay did not look impressive. It was only Warner who had batted well. All others struggle there. Yadav too 5-fer and he troubled Warner throughout his innings. You can see who was troubling batsmen and who not. Wicket taking is a different thing. Vinay never looked like he is can trouble any batsmen. Regarding who is better in Aaron and Vinay and building skills, I dont think there is any scope for any skill to be build in Vinay now. He is already 28. If he is still not good enough, I am not sure when will he be good enough. One must hope in a guy who is young enough to learn skills and still play a few years. He will spend next 2-3 years in learning skill and then when will he start delivering after learning those skills. He will never be a complete bowler. Aaron is 22, he may be injured, but most genuine pacers go through this phase. Test match success is still far fetched but at least he has shown that he can be an x-factor in ODIs. I am sure once he comes and plays FC, he will start doing well in FC. After all, he still has not played much FC cricket yet and he was quite successful in EPT FC matches cricket in Australia on flattest tracks.

That is because if 2 pacers can take early wicket then he can come more handy. Otherwise, he is not a kind of bowler who can bowl at death. Like in England tied match, even Ajmal Shehzad hit him for 6. Kyle Mills made the mincemeat of his bowling while chasing 392. There are many occasions. He is a bowler who can stop runs in middle overs by his straight bowling if bowling upfront is good. Remember, we could not defend 2 matches in WC with score 300 and over 300 because we lacked bowler up front who could take early wickets

[msb1991]

That is because if 2 pacers can take early wicket then he can come more handy. Otherwise' date=' he is not a kind of bowler who can bowl at death. Like in England tied match, even Ajmal Shehzad hit him for 6. Kyle Mills made the mincemeat of his bowling while chasing 392. There are many occasions. He is a bowler who can stop runs in middle overs by his straight bowling if bowling upfront is good. Remember, we could not defend 2 matches in WC with score 300 and over 300 because we lacked bowler up front who could take early wickets[/quote'] His death bowling is poor, but I don't see anyone who is better? He did well in South Africa at the death and an isolated good performance is as good as anyone we have can offer, imo. This is not something I think much debate can be had about though, we agree on his level of cricket, just whether or not he should be selected and tbh, that depends mainly on circumstances in the future.

[rkt.india]

His death bowling is poor, but I don't see anyone who is better? He did well in South Africa at the death and an isolated good performance is as good as anyone we have can offer, imo. This is not something I think much debate can be had about though, we agree on his level of cricket, just whether or not he should be selected and tbh, that depends mainly on circumstances in the future.

[Number]

You won't find many fast bowlers (145+) who haven't gone through back injuries in 19-23 age. So Aaron's injury is not a major worry , IMO. He can come back. plan right now should be 1. Select bowlers like Abu Nechim, Shami Ahmed from domestics. give Dinda a few more games. else 2. Bring Nehra and Munaf back. PK, VK should be immediately discarded and Irfan can play in 3rd seamers place.

[Old guy]

You won't find many fast bowlers (145+) who haven't gone through back injuries in 19-23 age. So Aaron's injury is not a major worry , IMO. He can come back. plan right now should be 1. Select bowlers like Abu Nechim, Shami Ahmed from domestics. give Dinda a few more games. else 2. Bring Nehra and Munaf back. PK, VK should be immediately discarded and Irfan can play in 3rd seamers place.

why just talk abt fast bowlers ? i would drop ashwin now bring in rahul sharma or ojha bowling line up should be atleast give one more series to dinda and pathan (bcos he can bat a bit and is as crappy as vinay or pk ) yadav should be in the team... aaron should be in team when he is fit lets jsut hope some of these guys come good otherwise we would even start losing at home :wall:

[Number]

why just talk abt fast bowlers ? i would drop ashwin now bring in rahul sharma or ojha bowling line up should be atleast give one more series to dinda and pathan (bcos he can bat a bit and is as crappy as vinay or pk ) yadav should be in the team... aaron should be in team when he is fit lets jsut hope some of these guys come good otherwise we would even start losing at home :wall:

Yep, Rahul Sharma should be given a chance. Though apart from last T20 Ashwin hasn't been as crap as others. So I won't drop him. I'd rather play 2 spinners , 3 Seamers (including Pathan).

[msb1991]

How he was outbowled by Vinay. Vinay as economical as ever. Yadav bowled the best and Aaron had 2-3 catches dropped on his bowling. You can just see stats. You did not watch the match. If you had read the report by SaneIndian' date=' you would know, he did not bowl poorly. He troubled the batsmen, but if catches are dropped one cant do much. He can do as much to get edges.[/quote'] As I said, I was not basing much on one match. If catches are dropped off a bowler in one match, luck will even out over time. He has played over 10 First Class matches. Has he suffered bad luck in all of them?

[CG]

Munaf bowled well against Bangladesh. He also bowled well in the final. Vinay does not look like a good Test option, agreed. I think he deserves one more shot and probably deserves to be kept in the squad above the likes of Aaron who have no FC credentials. However, he should not be pushed into the XI unnecessarily. He averages 33.03 and since 2011, has averaged 30.88. Bowlers struggle in second seasons because of injury but I think he is a very fit cricketer who will not get injured often. Therefore, this second season slump is less likely to occur.

Bowlers struggle in second season as batsman get adapted to whats his stock ball and arsenal,Guys who lack pace and variations will fail,and vinay kumar already is mediocore.

[rkt.india]

As I said' date=' I was not basing much on one match. If catches are dropped off a bowler in one match, luck will even out over time. He has played over 10 First Class matches. Has he suffered bad luck in all of them?[/quote'] Why not? It is not about luck. It is about fielding standards in domestic cricket. I hope you had watched Duleep trophy final. Mohammad is pretty quick, was quicker than Dinda and was bowling superbly, getting edges out of edges, and fielders were dropping catches after catches of him in the slips and wicket keeper too. They dropped about 5-6 catches of him and that pitch had some help for pacers so it did not matter much and he still took wickets, but if these things happen on flat tracks, bowlers can only bowl, he cannot catch them, especially fielding standards of weaker teams are to poor. Two catches dropped every match can certainly harm a bowler's stats easily. 10 matches 2 catches per match means 20 wickets. Another thing is Aaron mostly get his wicket LBW and bowled. It means something that either batsmen are not edging or catches being dropped. Catches are also dropped if ball comes at high pace in the slips and bowler is quick in the air. Same thing was happening with Mohammad Shami in Duleep Final as fielders were late to react on edges and Aaron is far quicker than Shami. IMO, Aaron is not a finished article. He is still learning. Troubling the batsman, beating for pace is one thing, but taking wicket consistently is another. It is an art which not a single fast bowler from India has mastered in over 70 years of Indian test cricket.

[Marut]

Praveen Kumar I think has got around 25:dance: But yeah, your point is valid, it's shame we haven't produced hardly any bowlers with sub-30 average, well it's scandalous tbh.

Let PK play 20 tests first ZK has been the closest to a classic bowler we have had after Kapil and his average would be below 30 if he had been consistant earlier on in his career. Still, a nation of one billion and more cannot produce a few outstanding bowlers for a test side. Our selectors and talent hunting scouts owe us an explanation.

[Ultimate_Game]

Let PK play 20 tests first ZK has been the closest to a classic bowler we have had after Kapil and his average would be below 30 if he had been consistant earlier on in his career. Still' date=' a nation of one billion and more cannot produce a few outstanding bowlers for a test side. Our selectors and talent hunting scouts owe us an explanation.[/quote'] Agreed. There's a direct co-relation between bowlers/bowling averages and team results. Good teams or teams with good/great bowlers will always have better records/results than the team with poor bowling no matter how strong the batting lineup. Unless we get good bowlers we will continue to be middle of the pack team at intl level and will never be a force to reckon with on a consistent basis.

[Marut]

Agreed. There's a direct co-relation between bowlers/bowling averages and team results. Good teams or teams with good/great bowlers will always have better records/results than the team with poor bowling no matter how strong the batting lineup. Unless we get good bowlers we will continue to be middle of the pack team at intl level and will never be a force to reckon with on a consistent basis.

True, even if we had one such bowler ( sub 25 bowler) on our tour to England/Australia who knows what might have happened? There was a good chance that we would have drawn/won a few games, and if the bowler has a peak tour it might even translate to a series win. We blame our batting for all failures and ignore the bowling because it has been crap all along. Good batting can win you ODIs but it is good bowling that wins you test matches.

[Ultimate_Game]

True' date=' even if we had one such bowler ( sub 25 bowler) on our tour to England/Australia who knows what might have happened? There was a good chance that we would have drawn/won a few games, and if the bowler has a peak tour it might even translate to a series win. We blame our batting for all failures and ignore the bowling because it has been crap all along. Good batting can win you ODIs but it is good bowling that wins you test matches.[/quote'] If we had just one world beater in the last 10 years, or maybe even a chucker like Murali/Ajmal we would have managed a win in Aus (2003-04 series), a win in SA (2010 series) and maybe an additional WC. We simply had nobody other than Zak who was good but not great. Other bowlers simply made up numbers other than a few one-off performances like Sreesanth's in SA. India's plight shows how difficult it is to produce a genuine world class bowler compared to producing a decent batsman.

[Old guy]

If we had just one world beater in the last 10 years, or maybe even a chucker like Murali/Ajmal we would have managed a win in Aus (2003-04 series), a win in SA (2010 series) and maybe an additional WC. We simply had nobody other than Zak who was good but not great. Other bowlers simply made up numbers other than a few one-off performances like Sreesanth's in SA. India's plight shows how difficult it is to produce a genuine world class bowler compared to producing a decent batsman.

this chucker way is not right.. we all call ajmal chucker.. and think its wrong then why even think abt having such bowler ? i know our bowling is bad but that does not mean we need to allow chucking to be good we had some talent.. diff is instead of developing it we destroyed them ok at start of there respective careers ishant and morkel..were very close.. ishant actually was lil better then him imho but now morkel is one of the most feared bowlers.. (had a lil off season but still pretty respectable and ended very well ) and ishant is just unlucky there is some problem in mindset of these guys ..come on how is it possible for all of these guys to just lose way all of sudden ? i mean not even one of them came good even zack was on his way out but a county stint saved him but he still never ovr came his bad habits .. like lack of fitness :wall: its just so frustrating to see so many potentially good bowlers turing into tundlers even rp singh was such a good bowler once upon a time! :((

[Ultimate_Game]

this chucker way is not right.. we all call ajmal chucker.. and think its wrong then why even think abt having such bowler ? i know our bowling is bad but that does not mean we need to allow chucking to be good we had some talent.. diff is instead of developing it we destroyed them ok at start of there respective careers ishant and morkel..were very close.. ishant actually was lil better then him imho but now morkel is one of the most feared bowlers.. (had a lil off season but still pretty respectable and ended very well ) and ishant is just unlucky there is some problem in mindset of these guys ..come on how is it possible for all of these guys to just lose way all of sudden ? i mean not even one of them came good even zack was on his way out but a county stint saved him but he still never ovr came his bad habits .. like lack of fitness :wall: its just so frustrating to see so many potentially good bowlers turing into tundlers even rp singh was such a good bowler once upon a time! :((

I believe in things being equal for everyone and am sorry to say without chuckers it's not gonna happen for us. I don't think it's fair to face Ajmal and then have trundlers like PK & Vinay bowl when our turn comes just because we didn't back guys like Mohnish Parmar and kamran Khan. As for ishant back in 2007 if you had asked most of the folks whom would they prefer to have in their team out of Morkel, Ishant and Broad, I am sure majority would have gone for Ishant. He had all the assets - physical attributes (height), control, speed etc. And look where we are now. Morkel and Broad have comfortably overtaken Ishant and Ishant just seems to be stuck where he was in 2007. He hasn't shown any improvement and it's not coz of bad luck. I blame BCCI and academies like MRF pace academy or NCA who haven't done anything to turn Ishant around.

[Old guy]

I believe in things being equal for everyone and am sorry to say without chuckers it's not gonna happen for us. I don't think it's fair to face Ajmal and then have trundlers like PK & Vinay bowl when our turn comes just because we didn't back guys like Mohnish Parmar and kamran Khan. As for ishant back in 2007 if you had asked most of the folks whom would they prefer to have in their team out of Morkel, Ishant and Broad, I am sure majority would have gone for Ishant. He had all the assets - physical attributes (height), control, speed etc. And look where we are now. Morkel and Broad have comfortably overtaken Ishant and Ishant just seems to be stuck where he was in 2007. He hasn't shown any improvement and it's not coz of bad luck. I blame BCCI and academies like MRF pace academy or NCA who haven't done anything to turn Ishant around.

lol but clearly even u think its wrong to chuck ? right? anyway we are not alone i think ecb dont even allow bowlers to learn dossra in this way... i think instead of 'developing' chuckers like u suggested (maybe in some ohter thead too ) we should just try not to destroy our current bowlers :cantstop: ishant still is very young lets concentrate on him and yadav even aaron.. right not after watching de lange bowl in new zealand i rate adav much higher then him lets see how things go for both of them.. if we destroy even this guy then i think we will even som how destroy chukers or bowlers who bowl doosra (wait bhajji did bowled before? :hmmm: )

[Ultimate_Game]

lol but clearly even u think its wrong to chuck ? right? anyway we are not alone i think ecb dont even allow bowlers to learn dossra in this way... i think instead of 'developing' chuckers like u suggested (maybe in some ohter thead too ) we should just try not to destroy our current bowlers :cantstop: ishant still is very young lets concentrate on him and yadav even aaron.. right not after watching de lange bowl in new zealand i rate adav much higher then him lets see how things go for both of them.. if we destroy even this guy then i think we will even som how destroy chukers or bowlers who bowl doosra (wait bhajji did bowled before? :hmmm: )

I believed chucking was wrong coz it was not legal but not anymore. After watching the likes of Murali, Ajmal, Akhtar get away without any repercussions I don't think we need to be at the receiving end all the time. We let Rajesh Chauhan go coz his action was supposed to be suspect, we let Bhajji to give up his doosra and he has never been the same bowler since and we have wasted talents like Mohnish Parmar and Kamran Khan. Why should we be the ones doing the right thing all the time? What's the point when every other team flouts the rule and gets away with it? I say enough is enough already and it's time we did the same. I mean is it fair to watch likes of Ajmal bowl to our batsmen and when it's our turn instead of turning to the likes of Parmar, Kamran Khan or Bhajji's doosras we have likes of PK, Vinay or Jaddu bowling :omg: At least Eng has the advantage of picking SA rejects or picking talented players from Ireland & Scotland. We have no other options as even our so called academies like MRF pace academy helps fast bowlers from other countries more than the Indian ones.

[Old guy]

I believed chucking was wrong coz it was not legal but not anymore. After watching the likes of Murali, Ajmal, Akhtar get away without any repercussions I don't think we need to be at the receiving end all the time. We let Rajesh Chauhan go coz his action was supposed to be suspect, we let Bhajji to give up his doosra and he has never been the same bowler since and we have wasted talents like Mohnish Parmar and Kamran Khan. Why should we be the ones doing the right thing all the time? What's the point when every other team flouts the rule and gets away with it? I say enough is enough already and it's time we did the same. I mean is it fair to watch likes of Ajmal bowl to our batsmen and when it's our turn instead of turning to the likes of Parmar, Kamran Khan or Bhajji's doosras we have likes of PK, Vinay or Jaddu bowling :omg: At least Eng has the advantage of picking SA rejects or picking talented players from Ireland & Scotland. We have no other options as even our so called academies like MRF pace academy helps fast bowlers from other countries more than the Indian ones.

i would prefer.. mcgrath,steyn over these guys anyday :P and that should be our target not this.. but yes if we find some one who is talented and chucks within the limit form now on we should defend him a bit like these countries did but making them learn this type of bowling is wrong imo and if its clear he is chuking then no but if its like bhajji's case then yes we should back our bowlers lil bit more btw do u think these guys who have these so called problem in arm should be allowed to bowl ? i mean if ur not fit enough to play within rules then dont play ? wont u agree ?