Sachin Tendulkar vs Sunil Gavaskar

[Raghav_12]

If scoring over 500 runs in a series at 50 plus with 2 centuries, including a double century that too against the best pace attack of all times, is your definition of failing very badly then I would really like to know your definition of success. And just for kicks please feel free to include any series where Sachin Tendulkar has "failed" (or succeeded) as much. Better batsmanship how?? Just a simple example here. Sunil Gavaskar playing his entire career against unarguably the best pace era of cricket. This was of course in the era of no helmets yada yada with no bouncer rules, and yet he was never hit on his head. The closest he came to was when Marshall knocked off the bat his hand. Do you want me to pull out all the videos of SRT being hit on the helmet? Clearly if playing fast bowlers at their ferocious best is concerned Sunny would not come second best to Sachin. Not sure how you got this whole batsmanship thing going here.

Cover your bases, before you start with your diarrhea of knowledge. I was talking about this series. http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1980S/1982-83/IND_IN_WI/IND_IN_WI_1982-83_TEST-AVS.html See even Ravi Shastri and Kapil, Yashpal Sharma performed better than him. Out of these 240 runs which Gavaskar scored over 9 innings, 147 came in single innings and that innings came in completely dead test match, Indian first innings had started on 5th day of test match. You can salivate at this, http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63337.html If you had bothered to check my post, you would have noticed my point that all four great bowlers played in the series. Garner had not played in the series that happened in India, the one you started rambling about and that would have given you enough clue which series I am talking about. But, no pressure was just too much to let it out. I hope now you are feeling satisfied somewhere inside.

[vvvslaxman]

I remember seeing 82-83 series in TV (probably my first ) with Amarnath & Gavaskar the only two batsman standing up to Imran. The swing & Seam movement that Imran got in that series was never to be seen again (not even Wasim/Waqar at peak in Eng'92)....was it ball tampering or not but the ball moved off air and pitch on a dead track were Indian bowlers could never take 20 wkts in test the whole series.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n9Pslhkp9c]Imran Khan vs India 1982/83 in Pakistan - YouTube[/ame] watch Vishy's dismissal at 1:14. Also umpiring was horrendous in that series.

[Lurker]

Cover your bases, before you start with your diarrhea of knowledge. I was talking about this series. http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1980S/1982-83/IND_IN_WI/IND_IN_WI_1982-83_TEST-AVS.html See even Ravi Shastri and Kapil, Yashpal Sharma performed better than him. Out of these 240 runs which Gavaskar scored over 9 innings, 147 came in single innings and that innings came in completely dead test match, Indian first innings had started on 5th day of test match. You can salivate at this, http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63337.html

I will take your verbage diarrhea of knowedge as a compliment. Comes as it may from someone who constantly accuses me of using google, to cover his lack of knowledge. So just to be clear within a year, Sunny played two series against West Indies at best and scored over 500 runs in one of them at 50 plus. At best I see that as 1-1. How did you see that as a bad failure??? I see you conviniently missed out showing where Sachin has come close to emulating that kind of failure by the way. What happened? Couldnt find a single series of 500 plus. :--D:--D

[singhprakash72]

I think there are too many differences between the two for any kind of comparison.. Opener vs Middle order Helmet era vs Non Helmet era Highly Commercial era vs Non commercial era (less scrutiny) Facing average Fast bowlers vs facing All time great pace battery Playing for decent test team vs Playing for below average test team ODI era vs Non-ODI/Test era 23 yrs span vs 16 yrs span Better equipment bat,helmets, guards,videos,coaches vs Minimum equipment,facility. ...in the end the two were icons of their own era and in no way inferior to each other.

[Lurker]

I remember seeing 82-83 series in TV (probably my first ) with Amarnath & Gavaskar the only two batsman standing up to Imran. The swing & Seam movement that Imran got in that series was never to be seen again (not even Wasim/Waqar at peak in Eng'92)....x

Lucky you. Or perhaps unlucky you lol.

was it ball tampering or not but the ball moved off air and pitch on a dead track were Indian bowlers could never take 20 wkts in test the whole series

Didnt Kapil take 24 wickets in the series including 8-85 at Lahore?

[Lurker]

watch Vishy's dismissal at 1:14. Also umpiring was horrendous in that series.

Ball tampering or not, Imran was a terrific bowler and this was his best series. Who is the Pakistani commentator? Chisti Mujahid?

[vvvslaxman]

Ball tampering or not, Imran was a terrific bowler and this was his best series. Who is the Pakistani commentator? Chisti Mujahid?

That was his flagship series.

[singhprakash72]

Lucky you. Or perhaps unlucky you lol. Didnt Kapil take 24 wickets in the series including 8-85 at Lahore?

Yes that was probably in end 6th or 5th test ..which I didn't see (heard on radio) but that was an aberration for mostly a dismal bowling performance. To start with Indian bowling attack was more like a 2nd grade Ranji team attack (exception Kapil & Doshi). Madan Lal, Sandhu, Maninder (1st series)...heck even Mohinder was asked to bowl his off/leg cutters.

[vvvslaxman]

Yes that was probably in end 6th or 5th test ..which I didn't see (heard on radio) but that was an aberration for mostly a dismal bowling performance. To start with Indian bowling attack was more like a 2nd grade Ranji team attack (exception Kapil & Doshi). Madan Lal' date=' Sandhu, Maninder (1st series)...heck even Mohinder was asked to bowl his off/leg cutters.[/quote'] He had one weird spell. 30 overs 220 runs 7 wicket.s. that was a weird spell.. very expensive. also more wickets. More like Richard kreza's spell against us.

[singhprakash72]

Ball tampering or not, Imran was a terrific bowler and this was his best series. Who is the Pakistani commentator? Chisti Mujahid?

Actually Lala Amarnath was guest commentator....he would be quite blatant on his views. Praise the Pakistanis and at times air his objection on umpiring. I remember his son Mohinder was given LBW to a ball that he padded outside the off stump to inswinger (probably from Imran) and he simply blasted the umpire (later he was candid enough to say he was the one who told his son to pad up like this before the tour ). But the point is when he spoke no Pakistani commentator would dispute/disagree his view ..may be out of respect ?

[The Outsider]

Marshall, Holding, Garner, and Roberts played a grand total of 6 test matches together in their entire life. Out of those 6, 4 were in the '83 series in WI. In those 4 tests Gavaskar averaged 37 - not entirely terrible when you consider other top openers of that time like Haynes, Greenidge, Gooch had career averages in the early to mid 40s. An average of around 40 is what Tendulkar has managed against the top fast bowling pairs of his time like Akram/Younis, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, McGrath/Gillespie despite never being confronted with fast bowling quality Marshall, Roberts, Holding, and Garner provided bowling together and playing in the middle order. Just thought to add some perspective to numbers.

[vvvslaxman]

Marshall, Holding, Garner, and Roberts played a grand total of 6 test matches together in their entire life. Out of those 6, 4 were in the '83 series in WI. In those 4 tests Gavaskar averaged 37 - not entirely terrible when you consider other top openers of that time like Haynes, Greenidge, Gooch had career averages in the early to mid 40s. An average of around 40 is what Tendulkar has managed against the top fast bowling pairs of his time like Akram/Younis, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, McGrath/Gillespie despite never being confronted with fast bowling quality Marshall, Roberts, Holding, and Garner provided bowling together and playing in the middle order. Just thought to add some perspective to numbers.

Don't think in history any team had 4 high quality fast bowlers in the same team. That was probably the only occasion. Yes teams had two good fast bowlers.. Not 4. To think about it..even their second string fast bowlers like Winston davis, wayne daniel were dangerous.

[vamos_rafa]

Marshall, Holding, Garner, and Roberts played a grand total of 6 test matches together in their entire life. Out of those 6, 4 were in the '83 series in WI. In those 4 tests Gavaskar averaged 37 - not entirely terrible when you consider other top openers of that time like Haynes, Greenidge, Gooch had career averages in the early to mid 40s. An average of around 40 is what Tendulkar has managed against the top fast bowling pairs of his time like Akram/Younis, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, McGrath/Gillespie despite never being confronted with fast bowling quality Marshall, Roberts, Holding, and Garner provided bowling together and playing in the middle order. Just thought to add some perspective to numbers.

But as can be seen, Gavaskar's average has been bolstere by that 140 odd right? Also, 90's fast bowlers were as good as the one's we had before. Don't know whether people would agree to that or not, but in the 90's most of the teams(bar India ofcourse) had terrific fast bowlers. I have not seen any cricket of he 80's but is the above arguement valid for the 80's or 70's as well?

[The Outsider]

But as can be seen, Gavaskar's average has been bolstere by that 140 odd right? Also, 90's fast bowlers were as good as the one's we had before. Don't know whether people would agree to that or not, but in the 90's most of the teams(bar India ofcourse) had terrific fast bowlers. I have not seen any cricket of he 80's but is the above arguement valid for the 80's or 70's as well?

What do you mean bolstered by 140 odd? Every batsman's average is bolstered by innings in which he scores more runs. That's specially going to be true for an opener against a quality pace attack - a batsman would be more vulnerable at the start of the innings and cash in if and when he gets set. Try to understand the context in which the above numbers were given. Gavaskar was called as having failed very badly against a full strength West Indies bowling attack - the definition of full strength bowling attack was provided as all of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, and Garner should have been playing. I showed that they played a grand total of 6 test matches together in their entire lives out of which Gavaskar played 4 and averaged 37. Now, since the West Indies played a huge sample size of 2 tests besides those with a full strength bowling attack why even bring up this point when there is no benchmark to suggest whether that performance was poor? Yeah, as individual bowlers the ones from the 90s were as good as the 80s but as a collective fast bowling unit nothing compares to the West Indies of the 80s. And even with 2 great/very good fast bowlers in the attack Tendulkar averages about as much as Gavaskar averaged when he is supposed to have failed miserably, despite coming in the middle order and facing up to 4 great/very good fast bowlers in an attack instead of 2.

[The Outsider]

Don't think in history any team had 4 high quality fast bowlers in the same team. That was probably the only occasion. Yes teams had two good fast bowlers.. Not 4. To think about it..even their second string fast bowlers like Winston davis' date=' wayne daniel were dangerous.[/quote'] That's true, but people who quickly go to stats guru to prove some point would not know the details of these things. The only other series I can think of with 4 great/very good fast bowlers featuring and coming close to that '83 attack would be the '89 attack of Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, and Bishop though Bishop was just a rookie then.

[Lurker]

Yes that was probably in end 6th or 5th test ..which I didn't see (heard on radio) but that was an aberration for mostly a dismal bowling performance. To start with Indian bowling attack was more like a 2nd grade Ranji team attack (exception Kapil & Doshi). Madan Lal' date= Sandhu, Maninder (1st series)...heck even Mohinder was asked to bowl his off/leg cutters.

You are quite right about that. Although a specific mention should be made of Sandhu here. Didnt he made his debut and came out swinging with 80 odd runs or so with a couple of sixes??? lol He was a efficient bowler at best but had some great moments oddly enough, including fooling Greenidge twice including once in 1983 finals...not to mention being hit on head by Marshall and shoving his patka as if nothing happened.

[Lurker]

Actually Lala Amarnath was guest commentator....he would be quite blatant on his views. Praise the Pakistanis and at times air his objection on umpiring. I remember his son Mohinder was given LBW to a ball that he padded outside the off stump to inswinger (probably from Imran) and he simply blasted the umpire (later he was candid enough to say he was the one who told his son to pad up like this before the tour ). But the point is when he spoke no Pakistani commentator would dispute/disagree his view ..may be out of respect ?

Maybe a little bit of both. I have heard stories of how respected Lala Amarnath was in Pakistan. In fact he played some of his cricket pre-partition in Pakistan and played with many of yesteryears greats. Plus he once landed in fist-fight with Abdul Hafeez Kardar, by far the most impressionable person in Pakistan cricket...which I suppose was reason enough to get him the respect :giggle: But you lucky so and so for hearing all this live..although the results were obviously not so good.

[vamos_rafa]

What do you mean bolstered by 140 odd? Every batsman's average is bolstered by innings in which he scores more runs. That's specially going to be true for an opener against a quality pace attack - a batsman would be more vulnerable at the start of the innings and cash in if and when he gets set. Try to understand the context in which the above numbers were given. Gavaskar was called as having failed very badly against a full strength West Indies bowling attack - the definition of full strength bowling attack was provided as all of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, and Garner should have been playing. I showed that they played a grand total of 6 test matches together in their entire lives out of which Gavaskar played 4 and averaged 37. Now, since the West Indies played a huge sample size of 2 tests besides those with a full strength bowling attack why even bring up this point when there is no benchmark to suggest whether that performance was poor? Yeah, as individual bowlers the ones from the 90s were as good as the 80s but as a collective fast bowling unit nothing compares to the West Indies of the 80s. And even with 2 great/very good fast bowlers in the attack Tendulkar averages about as much as Gavaskar averaged when he is supposed to have failed miserably, despite coming in the middle order and facing up to 4 great/very good fast bowlers in an attack instead of 2.

What I meant was that your average always does not reveal your true performance. This was not meant to demean SMG. There have been many instances like this in Sachin's career as well like in the SA tour of 2001 where as per averages Sachin fared well, but he only had that 1 inning of 155. Other than that he did not do well or Sachin's record in the Pakitan series was bolstered by that 194*. I have an outsider's view of SMG's records but do n't have the in-depth stories like I have from Sachin's career. Also, regarding collective bowling units, would not an attack of the SAffers of the 90's(a raw Pollock, Donald, McMillan and another fast bowler) or the Oz attack(McGrath,Gillespi, Lee and Warne) be comparable to any other great attack?

[Lurker]

Yeah' date=' as individual bowlers the ones from the 90s were as good as the 80s but as a collective fast bowling unit nothing compares to the West Indies of the 80s. And even with 2 great/very good fast bowlers in the attack Tendulkar averages about as much as Gavaskar averaged when he is supposed to have failed miserably, despite coming in the middle order and facing up to 4 great/very good fast bowlers in an attack instead of 2.[/quote'] Rightly summed up. Yes, in 90s the pace attack was quite good. But no team had the same potency as West Indies of 80s. Australia came closest, specially with Warne and Mcgrath but purely from Indian perspective Warne was always immaterial so Mcgrath against Marshall-Holding-Roberts and co should be a nobrainer really. Plus just because Mcgrath-Wasim-Ambrose existed in 90s does not mean Sachin was dominating them. His performance against these gents is decent at best.

[Khalpat]

Sunil Gavaskar has one record of getting out on most number of occasions on the very first ball of the test match and twice the bowler was Imran. Kapil Dev has the record of taking the wicket most number of times on the first ball of the match. Sunil Gavaskar in the matches were Imran Khan, Denis Lillie, Jeff Thompson, M MArshall, Holding, Garner have played averages 51.46 which is similar to his overall average which means lethal bowler or ordinary bowlers he played them with similar ease. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=1369;player_involve=1383;player_involve=1401;player_involve=1451;player_involve=1522;player_involve=1571;template=results;type=allround Sachin Tendulkar in the matches were A Donald, Walsh, Akhtar, B Lee, Steyn, Glenn Mcgrath, Wasim Akram has played averages 49 which is less than his career average of 55 which means Sachin has been able to exploit ordinary bowlers much better but noticeable thing is his average is not very less when compared to Sunny wrt the lethal pace bowlers. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=1765;player_involve=1775;player_involve=2011;player_involve=2101;player_involve=47154;player_involve=5649;player_involve=5966;template=results;type=allround Lethal Bowlers: Both equal, Sunny having slight edge because of tough rules of that era. Ordinary bowlers: Sachin much better than Sunny in handling them or exploiting them.