Who is India's greatest test match winner ?

[Sehwag1830]

Any specific reason why? Dravid did play two of the best innings on an unplayable surface where every other batsman struggled. WHy would you want to exclude that?

Because Sachin is yet to be a part of team which has won series in WI.

[Sehwag1830]

The delusion of Sachin fanatics are amazing. India is the only Asian team to have won a series in WI.And Sachin fanatics want us to leave that series. India has won just 8 series away from SC . And they want us to leave 2 of those.

[vvvslaxman]

Maha-bahuhuhu - itna lamba lekh likhne ki jaroorat nahi thi. Concept is simple' date= judging an individual based on team results - is retarded ..whether it is SRT or Jaddu...MTC just tried (looks like in vain) to get it past few brickheads...ek bandey ko bhi samajh aa jaaye, tou MTC kee mehnat safal hoyegi. Still if you want to find a match winner, first define objective metrics. This method of filtering MoMs, 5fers, averages ..just in won matches is extremely rudimentary (can be one of the metric but not the only one). And result is for everyone to see - are you willing to accept Gavaskar was not a match winner, or never played match (potential)winning knock? or the ones in the list are the only genuine match winners India has ever produced? or Kapil was a 'below average' match winner as is in that list?

There are some matches that India won with sunny's contribution did not have man of the match awards presented IIRC. There is no filtering here. I just excluded Bangladesh who are the only weakest team all their lives. Kapil took 11 wickets and made 84 against in chepauk win where sunny also made 166. Kapil was the man of the match. Sadly no award was presented for that match. Same way for the 1980 MCG havoc by Kapil did not have man of the match award.

[Lurker]

Maha-bahuhuhu - itna lamba lekh likhne ki jaroorat nahi thi. Concept is simple' date= judging an individual based on team results - is retarded ..whether it is SRT or Jaddu...MTC just tried (looks like in vain) to get it past few brickheads...ek bandey ko bhi samajh aa jaaye, tou MTC kee mehnat safal hoyegi. Still if you want to find a match winner, first define objective metrics. This method of filtering MoMs, 5fers, averages ..just in won matches is extremely rudimentary (can be one of the metric but not the only one). And result is for everyone to see - are you willing to accept Gavaskar was not a match winner, or never played match (potential)winning knock? or the ones in the list are the only genuine match winners India has ever produced? or Kapil was a 'below average' match winner as is in that list?

Yes Sir. Sunil Gavaskar was not a match winning batsman. He was one who would save games, and it also reflected in his leadership where a the risk of losing in the way of a win made him search for draw merrily. Whoever thinks Gavaskar was a match winning batsman needs a reality check really. Kapil Dev was lot more cavalier and he would go for wins. Kapil's stint as matchi winning player is much ahead of likes of Sachin and Gavaskar but he falls short of Kumble and Chandra..and this comes from the greatest self-proclaimed Kapil backer. Understand better the difference between a Kapil fan and a Sachin bhakt now?? :--D

[akshayxyz]

Yes Sir. Sunil Gavaskar was not a match winning batsman. He was one who would save games, and it also reflected in his leadership where a the risk of losing in the way of a win made him search for draw merrily. Whoever thinks Gavaskar was a match winning batsman needs a reality check really. Kapil Dev was lot more cavalier and he would go for wins. Kapil's stint as matchi winning player is much ahead of likes of Sachin and Gavaskar but he falls short of Kumble and Chandra..and this comes from the greatest self-proclaimed Kapil backer. Understand better the difference between a Kapil fan and a Sachin bhakt now?? :--D

Fair enough if you want to believe like that. For me - as I said before, judging individuals based on team result, attributing disproportionate amount of credit of win to an individual - is unfair to other team members. And even if you want to calculate 'contribution to win' - it is not a trivial exercise (definitely not something as simple as MoMs, 5fers, averages, 100s in won matches).

[Andrew Peter]

LOLworthy samples but that appears to be the flavour of the week. Average in successful 4th innings chases:

So while Chasing a target SRT has been our 2nd most reliable Batsman behind VVS .

[The Outsider]

Now we are seeing "pwnage" of Gavaskar on the basis that he did not win awards which did not exist during his time.

[akshayxyz]

There are some matches that India won with sunny's contribution did not have man of the match awards presented IIRC. There is no filtering here. I just excluded Bangladesh who are the only weakest team all their lives. Kapil took 11 wickets and made 84 against in chepauk win where sunny also made 166. Kapil was the man of the match. Sadly no award was presented for that match. Same way for the 1980 MCG havoc by Kapil did not have man of the match award.

Well thanks for trivia, my history is poor, couldn't have recollected that.. even though I also started watching in 84-85..heck I don't even remember couple of year old matches. Anyway, the problem with MoM metric is - you are giving full 1 weight-age to contribution of one person. Whereas there are many variables, contributions that translate into a team winning (or other team losing). Also, this is just one metric - subjected to the perception of 1-2 or two people on the match day. If you want to do this 'match winner' exercise honestly. Then sit down, talk to people (real world experts, not ICF excel/stats monkeys) - list down the metrics - what matters, what not, figure out the weight-ages......develop your model based on existing learning data ( a subset of existing data upto date)...get it reviewed. Then, your model should be able to predict match winning performances on test-data ( other subset of existing data and upcoming matches) ...check for anomalies...rinse and repeat until your match-winner model is able to predict match winning performances (on test data) within acceptable margins of error. Until then, all these 10-15 minute attempts at stats guru are just jokes and nothing else.,however sincere you might think you were, be ready for directionless discussions (due to difference in perceptions), trollling, bhakti, enlightenment and so on...

[vvvslaxman]

Now we are seeing "pwnage" of Gavaskar on the basis that he did not win awards which did not exist during his time.

Gavaskar on his Test debut played an instrumental role in India achieving first ever overseas win.

[The Outsider]

Gavaskar on his Test debut played an instrumental role in India achieving first ever overseas win.

Did he win a non existent Man of the Match award in any of the tests - if not, he has been "pwned". And people like these are giving bhaashans to others for not understanding the game of cricket.

[Ram]

Not even close this one. Kumble thumps everyone else. Edit; Zak should be in the discussion also.

[vvvslaxman]

Well thanks for trivia, my history is poor, couldn't have recollected that.. even though I also started watching in 84-85..heck I don't even remember couple of year old matches. Anyway, the problem with MoM metric is - you are giving full 1 weight-age to contribution of one person. Whereas there are many variables, contributions that translate into a team winning (or other team losing). Also, this is just one metric - subjected to the perception of 1-2 or two people on the match day. If you want to do this 'match winner' exercise honestly. Then sit down, talk to people (real world experts, not ICF excel/stats monkeys) - list down the metrics - what matters, what not, figure out the weight-ages......develop your model based on existing learning data ( a subset of existing data upto date)...get it reviewed. Then, your model should be able to predict match winning performances on test-data ( other subset of existing data and upcoming matches) ...check for anomalies...rinse and repeat until your match-winner model is able to predict match winning performances (on test data) within acceptable margins of error. Until then, all these 10-15 minute attempts at stats guru are just jokes and nothing else.,however sincere you might think you were, be ready for directionless discussions (due to difference in perceptions), trollling, bhakti, enlightenment and so on...

MOM awards are one of the many ways to determine Man of the matches. Having watched pretty much every single match that India has won after mid 80s, it is not that difficult for me to conclude who has gone all the way to complete the job and who has done only half the job and left it to others. Bowlers are always going to be at the top of the list. It is not like India was whitewashing teams left and right. We had only a handful of victories. Among the wins there are some who stepped up big time to finish the job for their team. We cannot expect an individual to score all the runs by team and take all the wickets by team. There will be contributions from others. For instance Kapil used pain killer in 1980 MCG test to roll out Australia for 83 runs and help India achieve an improbable win. He took 5 for 19. But not before Karsan ghavri's successful spell with his spin (yes he could bowl spin also) and Dilip Doshi's spell he couldn't do. They did their own part.

[Lurker]

Fair enough if you want to believe like that. For me - as I said before, judging individuals based on team result, attributing disproportionate amount of credit of win to an individual - is unfair to other team members. And even if you want to calculate 'contribution to win' - it is not a trivial exercise (definitely not something as simple as MoMs, 5fers, averages, 100s in won matches).

Actually when it comes to match winning performances, there are certain players who DO manage to bring their game above many others. There are many players whose USP is being consistent, their are others whose ability to win matches on their own is beyond reproach. Take the example of great Fazal Mehmood from Pakistan. He led Pakistan's attack in its formative years and won many Test matches solely by his performance including in England, West Indies and India. His record of 65 wickets in 7 won matches @10 is phenomenal. Would I pick Fazal saab ahead of Kapil Dev? NO. Would I rate Fazal saab ahead of SRT as a player? NO. Would I rate Fazal Mahmood as a greater match winner than two of India's favorite son..Perhaps yes...and thats because my patriotic instinct is holding me back a bit :winky:

[vvvslaxman]

Not even close this one. Kumble thumps everyone else. Edit; Zak should be in the discussion also.

Bowlers are always going to be there at the top.Murali, Warnie etc. It is a given. Even Ravi Ashwin has one. :cantstop:

[Ram]

Bowlers are always going to be there at the top.Murali' date=' Warnie etc. It is a given. Even Ravi Ashwin has one. :cantstop:[/quote'] And rightly so. However, notwithstanding the sheer volume of wickets or the number of victories that were a direct result of Kumble's performance, I would call Sehwag the single most influential cricketer among the current generation of cricketers. This is no way meant to be knock on some of the other greats in discussion, but we never really won abroad until Sehwag made his debut in 2001/02. We were always formidable at home, but Sehwag's entry into test cricket was the turning point when it came to our performances away.

[akshayxyz]

MOM awards are one of the many ways to determine Man of the matches. Having watched pretty much every single match that India has won after mid 80s' date=' it is not that difficult for me to conclude who has gone all the way to complete the job and who has done only half the job and left it to others. Bowlers are always going to be at the top of the list. It is not like India was whitewashing teams left and right. We had only a handful of victories. Among the wins there are some who stepped up big time to finish the job for their team. We cannot expect an individual to score all the runs by team and take all the wickets by team. There will be contributions from others. For instance Kapil used pain killer in 1980 MCG test to roll out Australia for 83 runs and help India achieve an improbable win. He took 5 for 19. But not before Karsan ghavri's successful spell with his spin (yes he could bowl spin also) and Dilip Doshi's spell he couldn't do. They did their own part.[/quote'] as expected - fell on deaf ears.. ok guru, you know everything about test kirkut, numbers, stats and stuff.. there is nothing left for you to learn.

[Ultimate_Game]

And rightly so. However, notwithstanding the sheer volume of wickets or the number of victories that were a direct result of Kumble's performance, I would call Sehwag the single most influential cricketer among the current generation of cricketers. This is no way meant to be knock on some of the other greats in discussion, but we never really won abroad until Sehwag made his debut in 2001/02. We were always formidable at home, but Sehwag's entry into test cricket was the turning point when it came to our performances away.

You are correct. Sehwag is the only batsman who comes to mind who could impact the result of the game. His audacious stroke-play gave India plenty of time to bowl out opponents and opposition always had to score more runs and take more time while setting India a target due o Sehwag factor coz if he played a blinder you could lose the Test in a jiffy.

[vvvslaxman]

And rightly so. However, notwithstanding the sheer volume of wickets or the number of victories that were a direct result of Kumble's performance, I would call Sehwag the single most influential cricketer among the current generation of cricketers. This is no way meant to be knock on some of the other greats in discussion, but we never really won abroad until Sehwag made his debut in 2001/02. We were always formidable at home, but Sehwag's entry into test cricket was the turning point when it came to our performances away.

If there is one reason India got top on Pakistan it was because of Viru. India vs Pakistan when Sehwag is part of the team http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=7;orderby=runs;player_involve=7781;team=6;template=results;type=batting You could say he singlehandedly almost dominated the pakistan. Even Bangalore test could have been won but for the silly run out caused by Gauti.

[riya]

Kumble VVS Dravid Sehwag Tendulkar in that order harbajan should not be on that list

Totally agree to this list.Perfect!!!

[riya]

If there is one reason India got top on Pakistan it was because of Viru. India vs Pakistan when Sehwag is part of the team http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=7;orderby=runs;player_involve=7781;team=6;template=results;type=batting You could say he singlehandedly almost dominated the pakistan. Even Bangalore test could have been won but for the silly run out caused by Gauti.

Yes Sehwag even though inconsistent was part of some great victories,wo can forget that Galle innings.Awesome..