The Narendra Modi thread

[ganeshran]

Political speech :giggle: Here's mine: I'm in favor of fiscal responsibility & economic growth while you're towing the secular line. We can't provide food handouts for 800 million, its unrealistic and impractical and will keep us third world level for a long time.

erm no. you are in favor of the chaddi brigade's line of letting people die of hunger. Might as well be honest and say that, for economic development we have to forget that there are poor people in the country for a few decades. If they are muslims or lower castes, that is even better. Best way for population control, eh? :giggle:

Ok, let's just wait out on the numbers. If you have something better than political speeches inspired from communism, please feel free to share :/ I would understand if it was at most 20% of the population, maybe 25% in some calamities but two thirds sounds insane and should not be attempted.

66% of the people in this country are not going to come under brand new coverage under this bill. It would include revamping the existing system of PDS which already covers a lot of those 66% and provide them with quantities of subsidized food people can actually survive on.

[Clarke]

erm no. you are in favor of the chaddi brigade's line of letting people die of hunger. Might as well be honest and say that, for economic development we have to forget that there are poor people in the country for a few decades. If they are muslims or lower castes, that is even better. Best way for population control, eh? :giggle:

Well there aren't 800 million dying of hunger, whatever caste/creed/religion based vote banks you had in mind. Neither would it hurt to invest into some population control, unless of course you plan to keep the ever expanding army of poor just about alive so they can continue to vote for you based on the election year candy.

66% of the people in this country are not going to come under brand new coverage under this bill. It would include revamping the existing system of PDS which already covers a lot of those 66% and provide them with quantities of subsidized food people can actually survive on.

What exactly was the need for further expansion by means of an act other than vote bank politics ? You keep ramping up the subsidy bill on one side and hunting down the industry on another, of course the middle class tax payers are going to cry foul.

[ganeshran]

Well there aren't 800 million dying of hunger, whatever caste/creed/religion based vote banks you had in mind. Neither would it hurt to invest into some population control, unless of course you plan to keep the ever expanding army of poor just about alive so they can continue to vote for you based on the election year candy. What exactly was the need for further expansion by means of an act other than vote bank politics ? You keep ramping up the subsidy bill on one side and hunting down the industry on another, of course the middle class tax payers are going to cry foul.

They might not be starving to death tonight but are being consistently underfed for years. Poor unbalanced nutrition during the early years creates health issues that people have to fight for their whole lives making less than fully productive individuals. Like I said before, If your chaddi brigade has a better idea to solve this problem, then lets hear it. Because ignoring it is not going to make it go away Our demographic is currently among the youngest in the world. Even China has an older population. The only way all these millennium babies are going to become a part of anything other than an already overloaded agrarian economy is if they are given proper food and education in childhood to have the skills to at least become semi skilled labor. And despite our huge population, almost every industry in India suffers from a lack of people with proper skills. The need for expansion was the constantly rising food prices. 10 years ago, a family of four could be feed for 1-2K, today the amount has almost doubled. Plus if people focus their entire energy on immediate subsistence alone they do the same thing generation after generation without ever getting a chance to earn more and come in the tax bracket. Only 3% of our country is in the tax bracket. The potential revenue from bringing in more people is huge. I have no doubt that this is an entirely selfish move by the Congress just for electoral gains. But I'm hoping some good comes out of long overdue PDS reform. The loan waiver was a dud scheme but there are positive effects finally coming out of NREGA years after its implementation. People in villages now have employment for most of the year and don't sit idle during off seasons.

[seedhi]

They might not be starving to death tonight but are being consistently underfed for years. Poor unbalanced nutrition during the early years creates health issues that people have to fight for their whole lives making less than fully productive individuals. Like I said before, If your chaddi brigade has a better idea to solve this problem, then lets hear it. Because ignoring it is not going to make it go away Our demographic is currently among the youngest in the world. Even China has an older population. The only way all these millennium babies are going to become a part of anything other than an already overloaded agrarian economy is if they are given proper food and education in childhood to have the skills to at least become semi skilled labor. And despite our huge population, almost every industry in India suffers from a lack of people with proper skills. The need for expansion was the constantly rising food prices. 10 years ago, a family of four could be feed for 1-2K, today the amount has almost doubled. Plus if people focus their entire energy on immediate subsistence alone they do the same thing generation after generation without ever getting a chance to earn more and come in the tax bracket. Only 3% of our country is in the tax bracket. The potential revenue from bringing in more people is huge. I have no doubt that this is an entirely selfish move by the Congress just for electoral gains. But I'm hoping some good comes out of long overdue PDS reform. The loan waiver was a dud scheme but there are positive effects finally coming out of NREGA years after its implementation. People in villages now have employment for most of the year and don't sit idle during off seasons.

The primary reason for the rising food prices was the abnormally high minimum support prices by the govt.

[seedhi]

And I hope you get my point that the tax benefit did not even receive 1% of the same criticism/discussion etc. that the FSB did. There are other such examples too and it reflects in our society. This is NOT ABOUT FSB or tax benefits - this is about mentality (which is a horizontal) and cuts through across various domains including but not limited to politics.

The flip side is that if the said tax benefit to the jewellers is withdrawn then it will not get even 1% of the criticism as when something like a FSB is scaled back which will elicit howls of protests. Also, a very important qualitative difference is that a tax benefit can be revoked at any time by an executive order. The FSB or NREGA are acts of Parliament and any change must pass the legislative test.

[Crookbond]

Can you answer a single straight question: Which single handout (and not a tax break) is worth $22 billion ? We're talking proportion here, aren't we ? Rahi baat monetary burden ki, lets wait for the rollout. You're too keen to toe the govt's line and I'm ready to call the bluff on that. I thought the CACP pissed all over the govt's estimates but lets wait and see.

And you are too keen on jumping the gun. I don't know how you got the 22Bn figure. AFAIK Arun Jaitley is also not in the government given that he endorses similar views of what I said in my earlier post. There are other academics (from reputed universities) who have done the math as well and hae no connected with the government.

[Crookbond]

The flip side is that if the said tax benefit to the jewellers is withdrawn then it will not get even 1% of the criticism as when something like a FSB is scaled back which will elicit howls of protests. Also, a very important qualitative difference is that a tax benefit can be revoked at any time by an executive order. The FSB or NREGA are acts of Parliament and any change must pass the legislative test.

IIRC, there were quite some demands and protests this year for the same to continue. I understand the point of the legislative procedures et al but if something is being done every year it is as good as a legislature in practice (though marginally better because it can be revoked). However, it should still receive (for a matter of discussion) 10% of the criticism as the FSB does. It's the same money after all for a non-essential commodity. In any case, like I have repeatedly said we need to look beyond that point and understand what I was trying to say.

[Crookbond]

They might not be starving to death tonight but are being consistently underfed for years. Poor unbalanced nutrition during the early years creates health issues that people have to fight for their whole lives making less than fully productive individuals. Like I said before, If your chaddi brigade has a better idea to solve this problem, then lets hear it. Because ignoring it is not going to make it go away Our demographic is currently among the youngest in the world. Even China has an older population. The only way all these millennium babies are going to become a part of anything other than an already overloaded agrarian economy is if they are given proper food and education in childhood to have the skills to at least become semi skilled labor. And despite our huge population, almost every industry in India suffers from a lack of people with proper skills.

In addition, malnutrition has severe impact on a child's learning ability [0]. It also costs billions of dollars to the country's economy when these children reach their working age [1]. One of the important points of the FSB is nutrition for pregnant women (first 6 months after their pregnancy too I guess) which in turn has positive effects on child malnutrition and reduction of Infant Mortality Rates. [0] http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/Food_for_Thought_UK.pdf [1] http://siteresources.worldbank.org/HEALTHNUTRITIONANDPOPULATION/Resources/Peer-Reviewed-Publications/ScalingUpNutrition.pdf

[bulbul]

Can we take this BS FSB discussion to other thread

[Macj]

What I don't get is why a smart intelligent man like Jairam Ramesh is supporting the doofus Rahul

[bulbul]

^ Because he is 'smart' :winky:

[seedhi]

IIRC' date=' there were quite some demands and protests this year for the same to continue. I understand the point of the legislative procedures et al but [b']if something is being done every year it is as good as a legislature in practice (though marginally better because it can be revoked). However, it should still receive (for a matter of discussion) 10% of the criticism as the FSB does. It's the same money after all for a non-essential commodity. In any case, like I have repeatedly said we need to look beyond that point and understand what I was trying to say.

But then who is doing it ? It is the UPA govt which is providing corporates all kinds of tax breaks when they also aim to spend huge sums of money on welfare schemes. It is a fact that the UPA has miserably failed to raise revenue to match their spending. One of the first things that the UPA-1 did was to cut import taxes especially on capital goods which (combined with increased spending on social schemes) blew a gigantic hole in the fiscal and current account deficits. It was clearly aimed at helping the private industrialists. If the UPA had to spend so much they should have raised the taxes rather than simply print money and distort the economy. But they dont have the courage to face the heat and want to have the cake and eat it too, which of course is unsustainable as we now find. We have a marginal tax rate of 30% .. surely that does not square with the govt's goal of feeding 80% of the people. You cannot subsidize Ambani and have FSB and NREGA at the same time. Why were the 2G licenses sold for a pittance when the govt needed revenue? Why were the coal mines allocated for next to nothing? Why the need to splurge on Commonwealth Games? Has the govt cut back on its unnecessary spending?

[urbestfriend]

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1356145/online-army-pushes-pm-candidacy-hindu-hardliner-mondi Who is Mondi? :haha:

[Crookbond]

But then who is doing it ? It is the UPA govt which is providing corporates all kinds of tax breaks when they also aim to spend huge sums of money on welfare schemes. It is a fact that the UPA has miserably failed to raise revenue to match their spending. One of the first things that the UPA-1 did was to cut import taxes especially on capital goods which (combined with increased spending on social schemes) blew a gigantic hole in the fiscal and current account deficits. It was clearly aimed at helping the private industrialists.

Agree, the blame lies at the door of the UPA. What I wonder is why the opposition(s) decides to ridicule the FSB but doesn't reserve 1/100th of it to other tax "benefits".

[bulbul]

^because other tax breaks are not direct votebank politics..

[Crookbond]

^ Glad you agree they are another form of vote bank politics.

[ravishingravi]

The Narendra Modi thread BJP's gutter defence on this snooping issue is shameful.

[seedhi]

Agree' date=' the blame lies at the door of the UPA. What I wonder is why the opposition(s) decides to ridicule the FSB but doesn't reserve 1/100th of it to other tax "benefits".[/quote']As far as I know the FSB was passed with the support of the Opposition in Parliament, after incorporating changes/amendments. The concern that many people have is whether it is feasible in the current fiscal scenario. As I said, the govt has failed to raise the revenue for it, the CAD and fiscal deficits are at record highs. There are others who (like Panagriya) who advocate cash transfers etc. As far as the "opposition" keeping quiet on other spending etc .. well depends on what you choose to focus on. The 2G scam was raised in Parliament way back in July 2009 when Arun Shourie questioned the bartering away the licenses for a pittance. The Coal Scam was investigated on the behest of letters written by some BJP MPs. On some issues (say relating to the Ambanis) the opposition could have been more vociferous. Still the blame must and does lie at the doorsteps of the govt whose job is to effectively manage all these pressures. After all, how is it that Vajpayee was able to leave with a current account surplus and low fiscal deficit and inflation?

[Crookbond]

As far as I know the FSB was passed with the support of the Opposition in Parliament, after incorporating changes/amendments. The concern that many people have is whether it is feasible in the current fiscal scenario. As I said, the govt has failed to raise the revenue for it, the CAD and fiscal deficits are at record highs. There are others who (like Panagriya) who advocate cash transfers etc. As far as the "opposition" keeping quiet on other spending etc .. well depends on what you choose to focus on. The 2G scam was raised in Parliament way back in July 2009 when Arun Shourie questioned the bartering away the licenses for a pittance. The Coal Scam was investigated on the behest of letters written by some BJP MPs. On some issues (say relating to the Ambanis) the opposition could have been more vociferous. Still the blame must and does lie at the doorsteps of the govt whose job is to effectively manage all these pressures. After all, how is it that Vajpayee was able to leave with a current account surplus and low fiscal deficit and inflation?

I think to pass a bill a 2/3rds majority is required and it doesn't require the entire opposition to agree on the matter. For a healthy democracy, selective amnesia is the worst thing one can happen. No one disagrees on "where" the blame lies - just raises a question on how the other side will conduct once they are in the driving seat.

[Crookbond]

SC lambasts Gujarat IAS officer for making wild charges against Modi http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/SC-lambasts-Gujarat-IAS-officer-for-making-wild-charges-against-Modi/articleshow/8283542.cms?intenttarget=no