Is MS Dhoni's T20 time up?

[Ram]

1.Dhoni was the worst batsman in indias tour of australia 2008' date='He had a good english tour but was exposed in australia in 2008.Yes everybody had high hopes from dhoni but he went downhill and gives the same excuse when he fails that he does not have atechnique instead of trying to improve it.[/quote'] Clearly you werent watching the tour of Australia. The batsmen who by far had the worst series in that tour was another gentleman named Yuvraj Singh. MSD did not have a standout tour with the bat, but his p'ship with VVS in the 2nd innings of the Perth test was one of the difference b/w Australia chasing 330 and 400+. In the end, the victory margin for India in that test was the runs MSD and VVS put together. I dont think I should even spend time contesting this point because it is flawed at so many levels.

[vamos_rafa]

Clearly you werent watching the tour of Australia. The batsmen who by far had the worst series in that tour was another gentleman named Yuvraj Singh. MSD did not have a standout tour with the bat, but his p'ship with VVS in the 2nd innings of the Perth test was one of the difference b/w Australia chasing 330 and 400+. In the end, the victory margin for India in that test was the runs MSD and VVS put together. I dont think I should even spend time contesting this point because it is flawed at so many levels.

Totally agree with the Oz thing. He did not score many. But, C_G only mentions the Oz tour but not the England tour. He socred important runs in that tour as well. And if you see before that as well, in the 2006 SA tour, he could have almost saved the Durban test. These are small things which are almost always neglected while some other players get the rope coz they are like that. When he's not been good, then all would agree that he was not but should not discount the good performances.

[Ram]

Totally agree with the Oz thing. He did not score many. But, C_G only mentions the Oz tour but not the England tour. He socred important runs in that tour as well. And if you see before that as well, in the 2006 SA tour, he could have almost saved the Durban test. These are small things which are almost always neglected while some other players get the rope coz they are like that. When he's not been good, then all would agree that he was not but should not discount the good performances.

I had mentioned previously that MSD's test match batting career can be split into two halves - 2005/06 to 2008, and then 2009 to 2011. In the first half of his career, he played a series of small but incredibly important innings that paved the way for our rise to the no.1 ranking. If MSD did not save the first test at Lords in 2007, we do not win that England tour. Later that year, when Pakistan visited us, we were in all sorts of trouble in during the first test at Delhi. Again, it was our MSD who helped resurrect the innings and helped us win that test (all the other tests in that series were drawn). Same with the Perth test as well. Its not that I dont think MSD cant bat well in test matches, I think he can and he has proved it before in the international level. He still continues to play crucial innings (case in point, his p'ship with Kohli against the final home test against NZ that helped us win the series and stop NZ from drawing level).

[vamos_rafa]

I had mentioned previously that MSD's test match batting career can be split into two halves - 2005/06 to 2008, and then 2009 to 2011. In the first half of his career, he played a series of small but incredibly important innings that paved the way for our rise to the no.1 ranking. If MSD did not save the first test at Lords in 2007, we do not win that England tour. Later that year, when Pakistan visited us, we were in all sorts of trouble in during the first test at Delhi. Again, it was our MSD who helped resurrect the innings and helped us win that test (all the other tests in that series were drawn). Same with the Perth test as well. Its not that I dont think MSD cant bat well in test matches, I think he can and he has proved it before in the international level. He still continues to play crucial innings (case in point, his p'ship with Kohli against the final home test against NZ that helped us win the series and stop NZ from drawing level).

Agreed. My reply was to C_G. But either ways, the way he batted in SA in 2010-11 is something that also should be noted. He, along with Sachin were the only 2 to go past 30 in the 1st inning at Centuiron. And if you see the 2nd inning, albeit losing he again with Sachin played a very important innings. And again in the Durban test, I have said this before, he played a crucial inning of 38 considering the lead we had. I think again it was only him and laxman who crossed 30's. And he struck 1 or 2 6's against Steyn and Morkel. And also in the 2nd innings made a few. It's most certainly that he can bat. Infact he has not looked as at sea as some of the more hyped batsman.

[Raghav_12]

Clearly you werent watching the tour of Australia. The batsmen who by far had the worst series in that tour was another gentleman named Yuvraj Singh. MSD did not have a standout tour with the bat, but his p'ship with VVS in the 2nd innings of the Perth test was one of the difference b/w Australia chasing 330 and 400+. In the end, the victory margin for India in that test was the runs MSD and VVS put together. I dont think I should even spend time contesting this point because it is flawed at so many levels.

Keep them coming.. He scored run on that tour at the average of 17 but still he wasn't a failure with the bat. Even Harbhajan, Kumble and yes Ishant also scored at better average than him, but he wasn't a failure with the bat on that tour!! There is definitely something I miss there. Yeah, his 38 was the cornerstone of Perth win because without those 38, target wouldn't have been 400+. Then why don't give major credit of Perth win to RP Singh for his batting. He had also scored 30 which was just 8 runs less than Dhoni. The kind of odd performances from Dhoni we are talking about here, used to be considered at par for a WK until 90's. That's why you'll see praise for some fighting cameo's from Mongia and More. But with likes of Andy Flower, Gilchrist, Prior, Sangakkara things have changed a lot. Odd performances where WK supported frontline batman in crucial partnership not gonna cut much ice.

[Crookbond]

Never knew Indian domestic cricket had the likes of Flower, Gilchrist, Priors and Sangakkara's hiding in oblivion. Bring 'em on I say! :agree:

[The Outsider]

I fundamentally disagree with the premise that Mongia faced the same set of challenges as Sachin did' date=' during their p'ship in 99 against Pakistan. Yes, he faced the same set of bowlers on the same pitch facing the same match situation as Sachin did, [b']but that does not mean the magnitude of his obstacle facing was even in the same ball plane As Sachin's.

Not exactly, but pretty close because at no point did Pakistan get out to dismiss Mongia and put up any special fields. Yeah there was the occasional short leg thrown in when he was batting because of his weakness against the short ball, but nothing more than that.

Its one thing to be a side-kick to the main protagonist like Mongia was during 99, but an entirely different thing to be the main protagonist himself, like Dhoni was in 2005. Given that, and the fact that Dhoni scored nearly thrice as much runs as Mongia did and unlike Mongia, stayed till the end to finish the job, it is easy for me to conclude which was the better innings.

You're having a laugh aren't you? Going by your definition of main protagonist everyone wielding a bat and scoring decent runs was a main protagonist on that baap of pattas.

You may not have said those very those very words, but to me, the implication of the general tone of your argument - Constantly bigging up mediocre Mongia's fluke innings' like they were gift from heaven and deriding MSD las a toothless FTB - leads me to that conclusion.

That's your misgiving, not mine. I've been pretty steady - Dhoni's better batting does not make up for Mongia's better keeping.

Having said that, I dont think I am delusional enough to call Dhoni as a world-class test match batsmen at the moment. I thought he had a fantastic start to his test career. If anything, you could literally split his batting career into symmetrical halves - From 2005 to 2008 and then 2009 to 2011. In the summer of 2008, when we in the cusp of the no.1 ranking, I dont think anybody would have called MSD as an FTB. Of course, his batting has degraded alarmingly in recent times, but that is an entirely different debate altogether.

Yeah, it's a different debate.

P.S; Care to explain your logic behind rating Suresh Raina (who played a combined 60 deliveries in all of WC '11) ahead of MSD in the list of players most crucial to WC win?

Raina played a crucial part in winning 2 out of 3 knock out matches, Dhoni in one - in which Raina didn't get a chance to bat.

[Ram]

Not exactly, but pretty close because at no point did Pakistan get out to dismiss Mongia and put up any special fields. Yeah there was the occasional short leg thrown in when he was batting because of his weakness against the short ball, but nothing more than that. You're having a laugh aren't you? Going by your definition of main protagonist everyone wielding a bat and scoring decent runs was a main protagonist on that baap of pattas.

I think you are missing the crux of my argument. Leave aside quality of the bowlers/pitch for a moment and consider this - When the chips are down and the pressure is on (like it was in Chennai & Faislabad) and there's a rearguard partnership between a recognized batsmen and a 2nd tier batsmen/all-rounder/tailender, then the onus to take the batting side to safe shores is almost entirely on the shoulders of the premier batsmen. Yes, the batsmen at the other end has very important role to play, but he does not carry nearly as much of the burden that the premier batsmen does, nor does he have to battle with the same amount of pressure as the premier batsmen does. That is precisely the reason why I'd rate MSD's 148 over Mongia's 50. To me, they're not even in the same plane of comparison. We are know what an incredibly important role that Ishant Sharma had to play during p'ship with VVS against Australia at Mohali. But all said and done, as time passes and fans of future generations read about that game, it will be remembered as the VVS' game, but the VVS-Ishant game.

That's your misgiving, not mine. I've been pretty steady - Dhoni's better batting does not make up for Mongia's better keeping.

Well, I dont even agree with that assertion. Mongia may have been the better keeper against spinners, but his (lack of) athleticism was appalling. He feet rarely ever got off the ground. Dhoni may lack the brilliance of Mongia against the spinners, but's proven to be by and large reliable against them and is simply superior when it came keeping against the pacers.

Raina played a crucial part in winning 2 out of 3 knock out matches, Dhoni in one - in which Raina didn't get a chance to bat.

Are you serious man? This argument reminds me of the time when I was a kid in school and we used to have these "I have more pencils than you do' arguments with the other kids. I will give you that his innings against Australia was quite crucial, but you're making it sound as though as he scored 80 off 60 balls against Pakistan and rescued the team from 150-7 and took us to 260. Just to refresh your memory, we got off to a great start to a Pakistan, but our innings suffered some setbacks towards the middle. To have your specialist batsmen no.7 nurse the team to a respectable total is a bare minimum expectation from my perspective, not something to flaunt around as an achievement. But then again, I dont think we're having the correct argument here. I should remind you that, it was MS Dhoni (along the team management), that chose to include Raina in the side for the knock-outs, after Yusuf Pathan's mediocre showing in the league phases. To rate a batsmen who barely faced 60 deliveries during the entire tournament over our captain and keeper-batsmen who is, even today, instrumental in maintaining critical balance in the side is to me laughable.

[CG]

Clearly you werent watching the tour of Australia. The batsmen who by far had the worst series in that tour was another gentleman named Yuvraj Singh. MSD did not have a standout tour with the bat, but his p'ship with VVS in the 2nd innings of the Perth test was one of the difference b/w Australia chasing 330 and 400+. In the end, the victory margin for India in that test was the runs MSD and VVS put together. I dont think I should even spend time contesting this point because it is flawed at so many levels.

I did not mention yuvraj as he played 2 tests only .Regarding raina and dhoni ,I mentioned the facts dhoni world cup scores were 31,34,19*,12*,22,7,91.If you remember we had few batting collapses from good positions.For me Raina innings was crucial and So was dhonis .But people have their views on it beating australia was a first in wc was first for india after so many years the aura was still present .

[CG]

Totally agree with the Oz thing. He did not score many. But, C_G only mentions the Oz tour but not the England tour. He socred important runs in that tour as well. And if you see before that as well, in the 2006 SA tour, he could have almost saved the Durban test. These are small things which are almost always neglected while some other players get the rope coz they are like that. When he's not been good, then all would agree that he was not but should not discount the good performances.

I did not mention it as i was responding to rams post about summer of 2008.I do remember some of dhonis knock in perth and lords and in sa .But the problem is those knocks are missing now .

[vamos_rafa]

I did not mention it as i was responding to rams post about summer of 2008.I do remember some of dhonis knock in perth and lords and in sa .But the problem is those knocks are missing now .

And everybody does agree to that as well. The only inning of note was his 57* at Sydney.

[speedy]

yes

[rkt.india]

I did not mention it as i was responding to rams post about summer of 2008.I do remember some of dhonis knock in perth and lords and in sa .But the problem is those knocks are missing now .

He was our third highest run getter in England behind RD and SRT. Did not do that well in Aus where he has always struggled in tests. He did play crucial innings in NZ test series and we could have easily lost the test without them.

[vamos_rafa]

He was our third highest run getter in England behind RD and SRT. Did not do that well in Aus where he has always struggled in tests. He did play crucial innings in NZ test series and we could have easily lost the test without them.

Yes but it was highly inflated because of the twin 70's he scored in Edgbaston and that too when all was lost. I doubt whether he scored anything of substance apart from that. In Oz, he did look good on occasions, but could not capitalize. Like in MCG during the chase, he started off with a 6 and a 4 but later succumbed when he saw Sachin and then the rest getting out. Also, in Sydney if Sachin or someone could have hung around in the 1st inning, we could have scored a lot more.

[Crookbond]

Yes but it was highly inflated because of the twin 70's he scored in Edgbaston and that too when all was lost. I doubt whether he scored anything of substance apart from that. In Oz, he did look good on occasions, but could not capitalize. Like in MCG during the chase, he started off with a 6 and a 4 but later succumbed when he saw Sachin and then the rest getting out. Also, in Sydney if Sachin or someone could have hung around in the 1st inning, we could have scored a lot more.

Similar arguments could be put to Tendulkar as well. Inflated because 70 in MCG that too when we lost. :winky2:

[Sidhoni]

Yes but it was highly inflated because of the twin 70's he scored in Edgbaston and that too when all was lost. I doubt whether he scored anything of substance apart from that. In Oz, he did look good on occasions, but could not capitalize. Like in MCG during the chase, he started off with a 6 and a 4 but later succumbed when he saw Sachin and then the rest getting out. Also, in Sydney if Sachin or someone could have hung around in the 1st inning, we could have scored a lot more.

So? He did try and put up a good counter-attacking partnership with P Kumar. You cant demean those innings just because the rest of the team did nothing. Actually, in such cases, the importance of an innings is even more. None of our batsmen scored runs in that test match except MS.

[Raghav_12]

Yes but it was highly inflated because of the twin 70's he scored in Edgbaston and that too when all was lost. I doubt whether he scored anything of substance apart from that. In Oz, he did look good on occasions, but could not capitalize. Like in MCG during the chase, he started off with a 6 and a 4 but later succumbed when he saw Sachin and then the rest getting out. Also, in Sydney if Sachin or someone could have hung around in the 1st inning, we could have scored a lot more.

Agree with this part. However same is tue for Sachin's runs in England as well. His highest score of 92 came in last oval test when everything was done and dusted for the series. His (Sachin's) performance on England tour was worse even than what average suggests. However, for Australian tour it's different. Majority of Sachin's runs came in first two tests when matches and series were alive. I don't agree with second part of your post. Starting with a 6 and 4 when chasing around 300 is nothing. Dhoni, along with other lower order bat, had very good chance of putting India in driver's seat when were 214/3 and that could potentially have changed the course of whole series. But our lower order failed miserably. In second innings while chansing some 300, Sachin was batting well but wickets kept falling on other hand and he also got out as 6th wicket. Don't recall Dhoni's contribution in Sydney test. Will have to check scorecard for that.

[Crookbond]

OMG Just realized we are discussing about MS Dhoni in Test matches in a MS Dhoni T20 thread.

[vamos_rafa]

So? He did try and put up a good counter-attacking partnership with P Kumar. You cant demean those innings just because the rest of the team did nothing. Actually' date=' in such cases, the importance of an innings is even more. None of our batsmen scored runs in that test match except MS.[/quote'] Where did I demean that?? It was just a fact that I mentioned. Moreover,all along, I have been trying to put forth the good innings that MS has scored abroad.

[Raghav_12]

Similar arguments could be put to Tendulkar as well. Inflated because 70 in MCG that too when we lost. :winky2:

I am sorry to use this word - but mentioning of MCG's 70 here is plain stupid and shows that at time you just write for the sake of argument. Do you even remember that match? Sachin's 70 in MCG was best innings of that test. Both in terms of quality and importance. That came on the second day of the test match and with that innings he had placed India in position from where we could have dictated. There was a article in Cricinfo next day with something like, Sachin's innings promises a glorious summer for test cricket. (Don't have access to cricinfo right now, else would have posted that article)