Is MS Dhoni's T20 time up?

[vamos_rafa]

Agree with this part. However same is tue for Sachin's runs in England as well. His highest score of 92 came in last oval test when everything was done and dusted for the series. His (Sachin's) performance on England tour was worse even than what average suggests. However, for Australian tour it's different. Majority of Sachin's runs came in first two tests when matches and series were alive. I don't agree with second part of your post. Starting with a 6 and 4 when chasing around 300 is nothing. Dhoni, along with other lower order bat, had very good chance of putting India in driver's seat when were 214/3 and that could potentially have changed the course of whole series. But our lower order failed miserably. In second inninmgs while chansing some 300 Sachin in second innings, Sachin was batting well but wickets kept falling on other hand and he also got out as 6th wicket. Don't recall Dhoni's contribution in Sysdney test. Will have to check scorecard for that.

Yes Sachin in England gave hopes on numerous occasions but invariably failed. And for MS' start in the chase, Sachin and MS started counter attacking but then gave it away. And I was talking about the 2nd innings. You have mixed up the 1st and the 2nd one I guess

[vamos_rafa]

Similar arguments could be put to Tendulkar as well. Inflated because 70 in MCG that too when we lost. :winky2:

Nopes. Sachin's innings kept us in the hunt. I was talking about the match situation and not the eventual result. It's a different story that Sachin's dismissal turned out to be the turning point :((

[Crookbond]

I am sorry to use this word - but mentioning of MCG's 70 here is plain stupid and shows that at time you just write for the sake of argument. Do you even remember that match? Sachin's 70 in MCG was best innings of that test. Both in terms of quality and importance. That came on the second day of the test match and with that innings he had placed India in position from where we could have dictated. There was a article in Cricinfo next day with something like, Sachin's innings promises a glorious summer for test cricket. (Don't have access to cricinfo right now, else would have posted that article)

] First, :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: for the highlighted. Second, Here is what I was trying to say but went a little bit "too cheeky".

Agree with this part. However same is tue for Sachin's runs in England as well. His highest score of 92 came in last oval test when everything was done and dusted for the series. His (Sachin's) performance on England tour was worse even than what average suggests. However, for Australian tour it's different. Majority of Sachin's runs came in first two tests when matches and series were alive. .

Lastly, a post can be interpreted in many ways. So stop the ad hominem insinuations theory - "sake of argument". Check out Vamos Rafa's post - I was talking in terms of match results and not match situations. I never meant his innings was not important. Stop getting a shoe up yourself every time there's something remotely negative said of Tendulkar. I meant to say why such an argument posed by Rafa for Dhoni could be posted in some context of Tendulkar as well and it wouldn't hold much water. It does not denigrate the quality of Tendulkar's 92 innings at the Oval or that at the MCG.

[Crookbond]

Nopes. Sachin's innings kept us in the hunt. I was talking about the match situation and not the eventual result. It's a different story that Sachin's dismissal turned out to be the turning point :((

Exactly what I am referring too - if one wants one could say x about Dhoni, one could say the same x about Tendulkar too. I was coming more in terms of consistencies of views/arguments across Tendulkar and Dhoni.

[rkt.india]

Yes but it was highly inflated because of the twin 70's he scored in Edgbaston and that too when all was lost. I doubt whether he scored anything of substance apart from that. In Oz, he did look good on occasions, but could not capitalize. Like in MCG during the chase, he started off with a 6 and a 4 but later succumbed when he saw Sachin and then the rest getting out. Also, in Sydney if Sachin or someone could have hung around in the 1st inning, we could have scored a lot more.

There are 2 situations. He bats at 7 and he will score a lot of such runs at that position if top order bundles out early overseas and when a top order batsman fortunately stays till and he gets out. People are not crediting runs in first situation when he sticks and then bash him if gets out and not stick in second.

[ganeshran]

Dhoni is a hack who cant play a proper defence let alone an entire good innings when the ball is moving Comparing the batting of Dhoni with SRT or Sehwag, or Gambhir is a moot point. The remaining three are good test batsmen with solid technique but are going through a run of poor form. Dhoni on the other hand lacks the ability and will never be even a half decent batsman. The occasional knocks on the subcontinent pitches against poor bowling sides are his peak.

[G_B_]

Dhoni is a hack who cant play a proper defence let alone an entire good innings when the ball is moving Comparing the batting of Dhoni with SRT or Sehwag, or Gambhir is a moot point. The remaining three are good test batsmen with solid technique but are going through a run of poor form. Dhoni on the other hand lacks the ability and will never be even a half decent batsman. The occasional knocks on the subcontinent pitches against poor bowling sides are his peak.

In Gambhir's case that bad run of form in test matches is nearly 2 years. How long before we come to a conclusion Gambhir cant hack it as an opener outside the sub? or do you want to wait another 2 years to find out?

[Sidhoni]

Dhoni is a hack who cant play a proper defence let alone an entire good innings when the ball is moving Comparing the batting of Dhoni with SRT or Sehwag, or Gambhir is a moot point. The remaining three are good test batsmen with solid technique but are going through a run of poor form. Dhoni on the other hand lacks the ability and will never be even a half decent batsman. The occasional knocks on the subcontinent pitches against poor bowling sides are his peak.

He still is our best WKB ever in tests.

[Crookbond]

Gambhir is going through "poor form" since 2010. Sehwag has only done something of note against a "first class" NZ side that too at home since 2010. Two years and 20 Test matches of "poor form". :cantstop:

[Old guy]

Gambhir is going through "poor form" since 2010. Sehwag has only done something of note against a "first class" NZ side that too at home since 2010. Two years and 20 Test matches of "poor form". :cantstop:

this... got a question for u guys.. england series is coming...who will scorem ore runs..our openers or dhoni/? :hmmm: im gonna back dhoni here :--D

[Sidhoni]

this... got a question for u guys.. england series is coming...who will scorem ore runs..our openers or dhoni/? :hmmm: im gonna back dhoni here :--D

Dhoni scored more than them even in England, phir ye to India hai!

[ganeshran]

He still is our best WKB ever in tests.

No he isnt. That would be Engineer. As far as keeping abilities go, I would rate Engineer and Kirmani ahead of him.

[Old guy]

Dhoni scored more than them even in England' date=' phir ye to India hai![/quote'] yep.. i criticize his captaincy but as a keeper he hasnt done that badly to deserve a drop and did well vs nz..and is in awesome odi form def did better then our openers and even sachin if u consider he is a keeper and if whole batting fails its very rare tht keeper will save u...gilly was exception lets not compare him with him prior is doing well at home.. lets see wht dhoni does at home now :winky:

[Sidhoni]

No he isnt. That would be Engineer. As far as keeping abilities go, I would rate Engineer and Kirmani ahead of him.

Keeper + Batsman + Captain. You wont get Indian keepers playing all those roles at once. The thing is, we expect the same from him as we do from specialist batsman.

[ganeshran]

In Gambhir's case that bad run of form in test matches is nearly 2 years. How long before we come to a conclusion Gambhir cant hack it as an opener outside the sub? or do you want to wait another 2 years to find out?

If he fails in the next 2 series someone else should be tried out. I am not saying Gambo or other seniors should get a free pass, but he doesnt face any glaring technical issues in his batting. Other than his bad habit of trying to run the ball down to third man, the rest of the game is solid. If he takes out that one shot, he will start scoring again. Dhoni however lacks the fundamentals to succeed at this level. He doesnt know where his off stump is and flashes at wide deliveries. Like I have posted many times, you cannot succeed at test cricket without having a proper defense. With 3-4 men around the corner, dhoni's swat back to the bowler often lobs up.

[G_B_]

If he fails in the next 2 series someone else should be tried out. I am not saying Gambo or other seniors should get a free pass, but he doesnt face any glaring technical issues in his batting. Other than his bad habit of trying to run the ball down to third man, the rest of the game is solid. If he takes out that one shot, he will start scoring again. Dhoni however lacks the fundamentals to succeed at this level. He doesnt know where his off stump is and flashes at wide deliveries. Like I have posted many times, you cannot succeed at test cricket without having a proper defense. With 3-4 men around the corner, dhoni's swat back to the bowler often lobs up.

Why even 2 series? He has been given enough chances. I do think he has big issues outside the off stump. Keeps getting a nudge to the slips or bowled. How many times has that dismissal happened? I would say its a fundamental flaw.

[ganeshran]

Keeper + Batsman + Captain. You wont get Indian keepers playing all those roles at once. The thing is, we expect the same from him as we do from specialist batsman.

No we don't . Atleast I don't. I dont want centuries and a 50+ average at his batting position. What he should do is prepared to fight it out with either the tail or top order and keep rotating the strike even if he doesnt score a ton of runs or hits boundaries. In many of his performances in England and Australia, he never did that. In Melbourne, we could have had a lead if he hung in. Same in Nottingham IIRC , where he fell to Broad cheaply. These were not inconsequential periods in the match, we were at an advantage and we gave it away meekly.

[Crookbond]

Ganesh, Why do you bring up technical issues? I don't think Sehwag's technique is any as good as MS Dhoni. Yes, Sehwag as a better pedigree as a batsman but you can't keep backing players who do nothing for you in 20 Test matches based on pedigree. Also, it is unfair to have the expectations of 40 plus averages from a WK batsman. We don't have one or may not even get one.

[Sidhoni]

If he fails in the next 2 series someone else should be tried out. I am not saying Gambo or other seniors should get a free pass, but he doesnt face any glaring technical issues in his batting. Other than his bad habit of trying to run the ball down to third man, the rest of the game is solid. If he takes out that one shot, he will start scoring again. Dhoni however lacks the fundamentals to succeed at this level. He doesnt know where his off stump is and flashes at wide deliveries. Like I have posted many times, you cannot succeed at test cricket without having a proper defense. With 3-4 men around the corner, dhoni's swat back to the bowler often lobs up.

You are still willing to give Gambo 2 more series? That too the most important series of the year! Thats too much man. He has already got enough chances and he has constantly failed in tests for past 2 years. No more chances. Rahane has to be tried now.

[Sidhoni]

No we don't . Atleast I don't. I dont want centuries and a 50+ average at his batting position. What he should do is prepared to fight it out with either the tail or top order and keep rotating the strike even if he doesnt score a ton of runs or hits boundaries. In many of his performances in England and Australia, he never did that. In Melbourne, we could have had a lead if he hung in. Same in Nottingham IIRC , where he fell to Broad cheaply. These were not inconsequential periods in the match, we were at an advantage and we gave it away meekly.

he did play well in the third test where he put up two good partnerships with the tail. But, it wasn't enough as the top order failed miserably. He also played well in SA before the WC.