A chilling recount of the 1984 riots

[Tiger80]

Please do no insinuate anything! I am trying to form a informed opinion here. My hypothesis is that Thackeray may not have been the prudent enough to understand "innocence" of people on face value and that a few people amongst those may be rogue. I never said that allowing means helping terrorists. I meant there "may have been" a few black sheep amongst the good ones.

Well thackeray also threatened sikh in Mumbai too

The first time I attended a press conference of Bal Thackeray was in 1988. I was senior correspondent at the India Today magazine. Thackeray had threatened the boycott of Sikh-owned businesses, unless the city’s Sikhs did something to stop Khalistani violence. We went to the Ritz Hotel near Churchgate, and had expected the announcement of a truce of sorts, as we saw prominent Sikh businessmen and politicians arrive. It turned unpleasant quickly when Thackeray converted the news conference into an inquisition, pointedly asking the Sikhs what they had done to stop terrorism in Punjab. The Sikh leaders were taken aback. They tried to explain the obvious—that they had no links, nor any control over the militants. But Thackeray kept up the pressure. Go to the Golden Temple and tell the extremists to stop violence, he told Mumbai’s Sikhs, his face sardonic and deadpan, betraying no emotion. The implication, that the city’s Sikhs had some authority over the militants, or that they were responsible for what other Sikhs did elsewhere, was preposterous. But being outrageous was his style: to browbeat the other, to force him into surrender and to secure submission. I asked Thackeray: How would you react if Marathi shopkeepers in Belgaum were held to account for attacks on Kannada-speakers in Maharashtra? A couple of reporters from Marathi dailies asked me abruptly to keep quiet, and Thackeray asked: “Who is that funny fellow?†Two journalists—Bharat Kumar Raut and Ashok Jain—diffused matters. Meanwhile, the Sikhs asked for time to reflect; Thackeray gave them a short deadline. A few days later, the Sikhs requested Thackeray to come with them to Amritsar, and they would together appeal to the extremists. Thackeray was smart—he would have none of it. (Another time, he similarly turned down a call to go to Kashmir). He quickly moved to another controversy. Like businessmen, movie stars and politicians, the Sikhs accepted his unelected authority, mainly because of Shiv Sena’s destructive potential, which commanded attention based on fear. http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/pDEuFMHE0tyLzmXS57cJoJ/Bal-Thackeray-and-Bombay.html?facet=print

[Crookbond]

Well thackeray also threatened sikh in Mumbai too

He repeated something similar in 2008 too. I am not sure if he actually meant it in 1984 - .

A few days later, the Sikhs requested Thackeray to come with them to Amritsar, and they would together appeal to the extremists. Thackeray was smart—he would have none of it. (Another time, he similarly turned down a call to go to Kashmir). He quickly moved to another controversy. Like businessmen, movie stars and politicians, the Sikhs accepted his unelected authority, mainly because of Shiv Sena’s destructive potential, which commanded attention based on fear.

The tiger who always ran with his tail between his legs when presented with a challenge. :giggle:

[rahulrulezz]

And who created Bhindranwala? .Was he ever a mass sikh leader?UPto mid 70s THe guy was totally unknown face .

O commmeeon!!! Don't give me this BS!!! Bhindranwala was initially promoted purely because of political goal of winnings votes and gaining advantage in Punjab by Congress..... He was never supported for spreading terrorism and killing Hindus before operation bluestar... The day Indira Gandhi realized that Bhindrawala is typical exteremist, she withdrew her support... But Bhindrawala just likea typical pindu thought he can rule all over punjab in the name of religion and started asking for Khalistan and ordered massacre of Hindus. You know what what in short, you remind of typical extermist Pakistanis who justify killing and terrorism against Americans because initially America on a small level helped Taliban against USSR ..... Wteff... I am sure you support Taliban as well...

[rahulrulezz]

I have full sympathies for the hindus in Punjab at that time.My father still talks about his classmate a hindu brahmin who was killed in our village .His only fault-a rather fiery speech at a function against killing of other punjabi hindus.His killing led to an exodus of hindus from our village and they still have not returned.I do think that there sufferings have been glossed over. Where I totally differ from you is where you justify the massacre of sikhs by correlating it with the punjab militancy.

Great!! Thats a start.. This is the first time I am hearing this out of a Sikh.... Now coming back to your post, I neveer EVER jsutifed massacre of sikhs .. If it is upto me, I would chop hands of every hindu guy who killed any innocent Sikh or anyone... In my post, I was explaining how miltancy against Hindus by Bhindrawalan and eventually assanination of Indra Gandhi lead to riots... Not that I am justifying it but there is no use of putting your heads in sand about why those riots happened P.s. - I used to wear a kadda given to me in gurudwara back in India and even till I came to Canada.. but the day I went to a gurudwaraa in Canada and saw that terrorists pic, I took it off right there and haven't wore since then...

[Tiger80]

O commmeeon!!! Don't give me this BS!!! Bhindranwala was initially promoted purely because of political goal of winnings votes and gaining advantage in Punjab by Congress..... He was never supported for spreading terrorism and killing Hindus before operation bluestar... The day Indira Gandhi realized that Bhindrawala is typical exteremist, she withdrew her support... But Bhindrawala just likea typical pindu thought he can rule all over punjab in the name of religion and started asking for Khalistan and ordered massacre of Hindus. You know what what in short, you remind of typical extermist Pakistanis who justify killing and terrorism against Americans because initially America on a small level helped Taliban against USSR ..... Wteff... I am sure you support Taliban as well...

Did I say I justify Killing? did I say I supported terrorism.My point is if Govt had will they could had arrested Bhindranwale much earlier and put him in jail. Which they didn't I fully support the innocent victims of Punjab militancy whether they are hindu's or sikhs.If any is found guilty of killing innocent Hindu's he should be punished in same way as the culprits 1984 riots

[PBN]

I feel for the people of Delh Punjabis. Mentioned this before in my original post but since the majority wouldn't know the background , so here's some background info: A lot of punjabis who are settled there in Delhi had made the journey from West Punjab in modern day Pakistan leaving everything behind and some had lost relatives during the horror of the 1947 Partition as Punjab was the worst hit during 1947. Now these Sikh Punjabis had been struck twice by lightning in their lifetime after 1984. More horrific tales from the genocide of the sikhs. We know about the mass graves in Haryana and most of these have only been found in last few years. Husband burnt right in front of her eyes in front of the Gurudwara, and 7 year old boy losing his dad and family. Such scars. The Police just watched and had orders to do nothing from authorites higher up the chain. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JY2mYvd-A]1984 sikh genocide - victims part 6 of 6 IBN 7 Zindagi Live - YouTube[/ame] This is a 7 video program, just posting one video

[jairamesh]

Also need to strip Rajiv Gandhi of all his honours and titles, jagdish the tit is a bits and pieces player

[someone]

[King Tendulkar]

Great!! Thats a start.. This is the first time I am hearing this out of a Sikh.... Now coming back to your post, I neveer EVER jsutifed massacre of sikhs .. If it is upto me, I would chop hands of every hindu guy who killed any innocent Sikh or anyone... In my post, I was explaining how miltancy against Hindus by Bhindrawalan and eventually assanination of Indra Gandhi lead to riots... Not that I am justifying it but there is no use of putting your heads in sand about why those riots happened P.s. - I used to wear a kadda given to me in gurudwara back in India and even till I came to Canada.. but the day I went to a gurudwaraa in Canada and saw that terrorists pic, I took it off right there and haven't wore since then...

I have full symapathies for hindus who suffered as well. The terrorists were scum. I say lock them up and chop their heads of. Glad to hear another terorrist scum is to be given death sentense yesterday. But this is just a smoke screen. As it is not about sikhs good and hindus bad, this is not a competition who suffered most etc etc This is about justice. And this is the key word JUSTICE. In terms of Sikh bad guys(killers). They have rightly been hunted down, prosecuted and convicted by and large. The state machinery sought the gulity and sought their rightful convictions, I am very very happy about this. They also did big operations in Punjab to stop the militiancy , with highlight being operation bluestar which I fully support. Thank god they worked and now Punjab is best state in whole of India. Yes operation blue star had some things which could have been done better as well as other crack downs but over all job well done. But were is the justice in the sikh maasacres? What makes this worse is these massacres were organised by the state against its own people. Nothing worse a state can do then to organise mass killings of a community within its state. This is were people are getting confused, its not about hindu v sikh and so mentioning bhindrawale(was a monster and state rightly got him and sorted him out). Its about justiuce for ALL and pursuit of all KILLERS and people who break the law. Sikhs who did wrong are rightfy pursued and convicted etc But other way round nothing is done and all is done to protect perpertratros and brush under carpet. Also all those desperate to defend ghandhi and congress in this must realise they are not jumping in to protect hindus, as hindus did not do this. It was the govt which did this, using all the state machinery. Its seems many want to be a tool for the congress govt at the time and fall for jumpimg in to their camp thinking mistakenly they are defending the hindu camp. Again I repeat this is not about Sikh v Hindu. But justice for ANY killers no matter what community they are from or what CONNECTIONS they have. But then this is India with no Justice for any who are poor, not connected or come up against Big gun. Bofors, Bhopal, Gujurat, 2G scam etc etc (could go on for ever) So before you jump in ready to defend the Rajiv and Tytler and co. Remeber this is not just about one community facing injustice in killings but the total injustice for so many in India. Sadly it seems many like it how it is.

[Raghav_12]

Some videos I came across today. My sharing these videos doesn't mean that I agree with or believe what has been told by Mr. Tytler. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2DWCfiQsMA]Jagdish Tytler Truth of 1984 riots (Aap ki Adalat)-1 - YouTube[/ame] [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BwKECzcWPw]Jagdish Tytler Truth of 1984 riots (Aap ki Adalat)-2 - YouTube[/ame]

[suraj]

I have full symapathies for hindus who suffered as well. The terrorists were scum. I say lock them up and chop their heads of. Glad to hear another terorrist scum is to be given death sentense yesterday. But this is just a smoke screen. As it is not about sikhs good and hindus bad, this is not a competition who suffered most etc etc This is about justice. And this is the key word JUSTICE. In terms of Sikh bad guys(killers). They have rightly been hunted down, prosecuted and convicted by and large. The state machinery sought the gulity and sought their rightful convictions, I am very very happy about this. They also did big operations in Punjab to stop the militiancy , with highlight being operation bluestar which I fully support. Thank god they worked and now Punjab is best state in whole of India. Yes operation blue star had some things which could have been done better as well as other crack downs but over all job well done. But were is the justice in the sikh maasacres? What makes this worse is these massacres were organised by the state against its own people. Nothing worse a state can do then to organise mass killings of a community within its state. This is were people are getting confused, its not about hindu v sikh and so mentioning bhindrawale(was a monster and state rightly got him and sorted him out). Its about justiuce for ALL and pursuit of all KILLERS and people who break the law. Sikhs who did wrong are rightfy pursued and convicted etc But other way round nothing is done and all is done to protect perpertratros and brush under carpet. Also all those desperate to defend ghandhi and congress in this must realise they are not jumping in to protect hindus, as hindus did not do this. It was the govt which did this, using all the state machinery. Its seems many want to be a tool for the congress govt at the time and fall for jumpimg in to their camp thinking mistakenly they are defending the hindu camp. Again I repeat this is not about Sikh v Hindu. But justice for ANY killers no matter what community they are from or what CONNECTIONS they have. But then this is India with no Justice for any who are poor, not connected or come up against Big gun. Bofors, Bhopal, Gujurat, 2G scam etc etc (could go on for ever) So before you jump in ready to defend the Rajiv and Tytler and co. Remeber this is not just about one community facing injustice in killings but the total injustice for so many in India. Sadly it seems many like it how it is.

Excellent post :hatsoff::hatsoff:

[Lurker]

Killing of Indira Gandhi is the turning point in Indian history. You may not like her for a variety of reasons, but she was a tigress who defended India as a nation better than any other PM in Indian history, including her father Nehru. And tons better than Vajpayee. Had she been around Pakistan would have never ended up doing as much nonsense in Indian matters as it eventually did. Indian Armed Forced would have divided Pakistan again, she would have ensured that.

From across the border

If there was one Indian leader Pakistan’s army feared and hated, it was Indira Gandhi. She wrecked their country in 1971 and turned the global issue of Kashmir into a bilateral discussion with Islamabad. However, I believe she mocked Pakistan even more by adding two clauses in the preamble of India’s constitution four years after the Bangladesh war. She added ‘secular’ and ‘socialist’ to define the Indian Republic, the opposite of where Pakistan was headed

http://dawn.com/2013/04/18/modi-as-pakistans-candidate/

[Muloghonto]

I have full symapathies for hindus who suffered as well. The terrorists were scum. I say lock them up and chop their heads of. Glad to hear another terorrist scum is to be given death sentense yesterday. But this is just a smoke screen. As it is not about sikhs good and hindus bad, this is not a competition who suffered most etc etc This is about justice. And this is the key word JUSTICE. In terms of Sikh bad guys(killers). They have rightly been hunted down, prosecuted and convicted by and large. The state machinery sought the gulity and sought their rightful convictions, I am very very happy about this. They also did big operations in Punjab to stop the militiancy , with highlight being operation bluestar which I fully support. Thank god they worked and now Punjab is best state in whole of India. Yes operation blue star had some things which could have been done better as well as other crack downs but over all job well done. But were is the justice in the sikh maasacres? What makes this worse is these massacres were organised by the state against its own people. Nothing worse a state can do then to organise mass killings of a community within its state. This is were people are getting confused, its not about hindu v sikh and so mentioning bhindrawale(was a monster and state rightly got him and sorted him out). Its about justiuce for ALL and pursuit of all KILLERS and people who break the law. Sikhs who did wrong are rightfy pursued and convicted etc But other way round nothing is done and all is done to protect perpertratros and brush under carpet. Also all those desperate to defend ghandhi and congress in this must realise they are not jumping in to protect hindus, as hindus did not do this. It was the govt which did this, using all the state machinery. Its seems many want to be a tool for the congress govt at the time and fall for jumpimg in to their camp thinking mistakenly they are defending the hindu camp. Again I repeat this is not about Sikh v Hindu. But justice for ANY killers no matter what community they are from or what CONNECTIONS they have. But then this is India with no Justice for any who are poor, not connected or come up against Big gun. Bofors, Bhopal, Gujurat, 2G scam etc etc (could go on for ever) So before you jump in ready to defend the Rajiv and Tytler and co. Remeber this is not just about one community facing injustice in killings but the total injustice for so many in India. Sadly it seems many like it how it is.

As a desi, i take extremely strong exception to your idiotic viwepoint about the state of India. Levelling charges against the state for killing its own people is an extremely serious charge and i resent the fact that there are lallu-panju desis like you who are trigger happy for such extremely serious matters to be tossed around as if you are talking about your political rival's dirty laundry. There is zero, i repeat, ZERO evidence to suggest that it was a state sponsored killing. The fact that many who did it were employed by the state in some way and used their corrupt contacts within the system to safeguard them does NOT, i repeat, does NOT make the state guilty. The state is *NOT* held responsible if its employees misuse their power to do something terrible. Killers have used their posts to sheild them, so have paedophiles and rapists. Not just in India but everywhere. That is a standard human response to 'save your own skin, even if you are hitler'. That does *NOT* make the state guilty. To find the state guilty of such a charge, one *MUST* present evidence that there was a concerted effort between the political and executive branches of the government to plan and execute a mass scale slaughter. You should be ashamed of yourself to accuse the Indian government apparatus- one of the only 3 in Asia that are not desoptates of nutbaristans or psuedo-slave commie empires- with zero evidence. Yes, police officers got carried away, nutbar criminal hinduvta Sikh-hating govt. employee went on rampage and they all ran to the babu politicians to line their pockets with cash when reality sunk in and it was all about 'hook or crook, save your own skin'. Yes, that is terrible and a failure of the Indian executive system as well as the judiciary. Does not make it an evil government plan. The onus is on you to prove it or atleast have the decency to not level such charges against a government without a solid case. People like you make me ashamed to call myself Indian.

[King Tendulkar]

As a desi, i take extremely strong exception to your idiotic viwepoint about the state of India. Levelling charges against the state for killing its own people is an extremely serious charge and i resent the fact that there are lallu-panju desis like you who are trigger happy for such extremely serious matters to be tossed around as if you are talking about your political rival's dirty laundry. There is zero, i repeat, ZERO evidence to suggest that it was a state sponsored killing. The fact that many who did it were employed by the state in some way and used their corrupt contacts within the system to safeguard them does NOT, i repeat, does NOT make the state guilty. The state is *NOT* held responsible if its employees misuse their power to do something terrible. Killers have used their posts to sheild them, so have paedophiles and rapists. Not just in India but everywhere. That is a standard human response to 'save your own skin, even if you are hitler'. That does *NOT* make the state guilty. To find the state guilty of such a charge, one *MUST* present evidence that there was a concerted effort between the political and executive branches of the government to plan and execute a mass scale slaughter. You should be ashamed of yourself to accuse the Indian government apparatus- one of the only 3 in Asia that are not desoptates of nutbaristans or psuedo-slave commie empires- with zero evidence. Yes, police officers got carried away, nutbar criminal hinduvta Sikh-hating govt. employee went on rampage and they all ran to the babu politicians to line their pockets with cash when reality sunk in and it was all about 'hook or crook, save your own skin'. Yes, that is terrible and a failure of the Indian executive system as well as the judiciary. Does not make it an evil government plan. The onus is on you to prove it or atleast have the decency to not level such charges against a government without a solid case. People like you make me ashamed to call myself Indian.

Utter rubbish. Plenty of evidence, you should do some research. No onus on me. As plently of people have done it. You should look in to it more instead of burying your head in sand and hoping it all goes away. Actually people like you make me ashamed to say I am indian, as you dont want justice and want things to be brushed under carpet as it suits your agenda

[Muloghonto]

Utter rubbish. Plenty of evidence, you should do some research. No onus on me. As plently of people have done it. You should look in to it more instead of burying your head in sand and hoping it all goes away. Actually people like you make me ashamed to say I am indian, as you dont want justice and want things to be brushed under carpet as it suits your agenda

Nobody has done it. That is why there has never been a case or evidence presented for it. I am ashamed of you, because you are confusing failure to carry out duties and corruption in the system with government complicity with the actions. Those are two very different things and i am yet to see any evidence that this was a government plan. Certain goondas who happened to be part of the government, who participated and then bribed their way out does not equate to government planning it and being complicit, which is what you are implying. There has never been any evidence for the specific charge of government complicity and therefore the onus is on you to provide the evidence. Besides, you are claiming it to be true- when someone asks you to support your claim, the onus is definitely on you to support your claim. And i am asking you- support your claim to show that this was a government conspiracy, not a failure of government machinery. So far i have seen no evidence that suggests this was a government 'plan'. This is why people like you disgust me. Not because you want justice, because i would love to see justice carried out, but because you make a claim with no evidence and dont want due processes to apply.

[King Tendulkar]

This is why people like you disgust me. Not because you want justice, because i would love to see justice carried out, but because you make a claim with no evidence and dont want due processes to apply.

This is what you dont understand. In India, evidence gathering is corrupted for money and or support for a cause(political or otherwise). And due process is corrupted due to money and or support for a cause(political or otherwise). Your faith in evidence gathering, due porocess and instutuions is were you are going horribly wrong. Masacres (some call them riots) in the CAPITAL on the door stop of all the most powerful institiutions for DAYS, were thousands are targeted and killed. And you say state is not complicit:hysterical: Please wake up and smell the coffee. Plenty of evidence of prioners being realised to kill, police and politicians giving oil to burn and kill, politicians and police pulling out elctoral register to help mob find sikhs and kill and much much more. But hey no good evidence and no convictions so all is good!!! You may be convienetly naive but others are not

[King Tendulkar]

Justice is all that is wanted. But justice is denied in India for any who are weak and vulnerbale. And you have people defending this and wanting status quo maintained. Sad

[asterix]

So basically some powerful people hoodwinked the 'state' to get away with this terrible crime? And the 'state' has no responsibilities to bring them to justice or can't be blamed for what they did? :cantstop:

[Muloghonto]

So basically some powerful people hoodwinked the 'state' to get away with this terrible crime? And the 'state' has no responsibilities to bring them to justice or can't be blamed for what they did? :cantstop:

What the hell kind of an argument is that ? Whether the state has a responsibility, is obvious. But this is a prime case of 'justice delayed is justice denied' axiom. I cannot see, from a legal and forensic perspective, how India can convict criminals from a crime scene 30 years ago without extremely strong forensic evidence. Otherwise it basically boils down to anyone can get accused and found guilty of a riot-based incident from 30 years ago if they are old enough. That is not a justice system. My point is simple- instead of just being a lynch mob just eager to string someone up, doesnt matter who they are, try to understand the legal issues facing the justice system here and why legally speaking, many of the perpetrators have gotten away with it. My point is very simple. Do not level charges against my motherland on the magnitude of state sponsored massacre or genocide without clear and categoric evidence to conclude that it *is* state sponsored massacre/genocide, not just a failure of a justice-police system to contain the rampage in a riot-like scenario and then bring them to justice. Those two are two very different things. And as an Indian on an Indian messageboard, is that too much to ask ?

[Muloghonto]

Justice is all that is wanted. But justice is denied in India for any who are weak and vulnerbale. And you have people defending this and wanting status quo maintained. Sad

Who is defending status quo here again ? I asked you not to accuse my motherland of state sponsored genocide/massacres without clear and categoric evidence. Please, have some shame and either at the very least take some time and effort to provide such evidence in some meaningful way or stop calling yourself an indian. Please. You may be angry or personally affected by this (i highly doubt that) or just using it for a whole gamut of agendas. I dont care. But understand the difference between actually carrying out a justice system that actually proves the guilt of the criminal decisively and just finding some 'balee ka bakraas' just to satisfy the whole 'blood must pay for blood' bloodlust. Otherwise what you are basically saying here is, if someone names me guilty for rape/murder of a Punjabi woman/people etc. and i happen to be anywhere between 45+ today, i am guilty because someone said i was there, doing it to some innocent people 30 years ago. Surely, you want to live in a society that cares a wee bit more about the rights of the accused than that ? Or are you all about finding someone guilty, you dont care who, so long as a sufficient number of people die to pay for their ill-proven crimes ?