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pak troops cross LoC, kill 2 Indian jawans brutally (decapitated)

seedhi

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the don Veteran

the don

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before some of the testosterone driven posters here wage war , read this . The body of one of the soldiers was found mutilated in a forested area on the side controlled by India, Rajesh K. Kalia, spokesman for the Indian army's Northern Command, said. However, he denied Indian media reports that one body had been decapitated and another had its throat slit. Just a day earlier a pak soldier was gunned down , these border skirmishes are common , unfortunate but thats how it is .

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Utalk Newbie

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1) Indians never "accepted" creation of Pakistan, not because Indians wanted to lord over Pakistan. Indians tend to understand plural society can, and does, exist. In 21st century if you beleive countries should exist based on religious lines you are way behind times my friend. 2) Those Indians who did not "accept" creation of Pakistan are slowly dwindling in nature. They are older, have different responsibilities and simply do not have enough time to dabble in this. This dwindling may very well be a bad sign to Pakistan because the peace minded Indians taking back seat and letting blood thirsty Indians at Pakistan is hardly a good news to you. 3) Have you ever looked at the map of India to find Hyderabad and Junagadh? Have a look at Hyderabad buried deep inside Indian territory. How do you plan to have a Pakistani city buried deep inside India? How would it have sustained? What is with Pakistanis arguing this without ever looking at the map?? And mind you, you are actually one of the sane ones?
Lurker don't get me wrong. I honestly believe partition was a mistake that has resulted in so much suffering and pain on both sides. Whole process was badly planned and executed. I was talking about the principle of states joining either of the countries. In practical terms Pakistan having two parts with India in the middle was never going to work.
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Lurker Newbie

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Lurker don't get me wrong. I honestly believe partition was a mistake that has resulted in so much suffering and pain on both sides. Whole process was badly planned and executed.
And it continues today. I was reading somewhere how one of our music stalwarts (according to some our best musician of the century) Ustad Fayaz Khan's, shagirds and mausiki are dead in Pakistan. It is kept alive by many Indian musicians on this side of the fence but for good measures we ranshackled and destroyed his tomb/mazaar during Gujarat riots. So I suppose life is all good.
I was talking about the principle of states joining either of the countries. In practical terms Pakistan having two parts with India in the middle was never going to work.
Which is what bothers me. Kashmir is one issue. It is right on border between India Pakistan and also has sizeable population of both community. So yes it was bound to be contentious. However if Pakistanis simply used Kashmir to address that was one thing, they keep pitching Hyderabad and Junagadh which just starts sounding as one giant conspiracy of Indians to not give to Pakistan what was rightfully theirs.
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surajmal Newbie

surajmal

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We are fools: 6 things we need to realise about Pakistan by R Jagannathan Jan 9, 2013
PakistanÃÔ brazen violation of the line of control (LOC)in Kashmir yesterday, and the even more provocative act of mutilating one of the bodies of the two Indian soldiers killed, is intended to send several messages. Some of it may be related to PakistanÃÔ internal political dynamics including the coming elections and the likely change in the Chief of Army Staff but the core message is to peaceniks in India, including the Prime Minister. The message is simple: no matter what peace overtures we make, the Pakistani state will be in a permanent state of war till it achieves all its political and military objectives (Kashmir, Khalistan, etc). And it will use fair means and foul terror, fake currency, et al. Peacetimes will be used to prepare for war covert or overt. The problem, though, is with us. When somebody is shouting from the rooftops Ū hate you? how is it that we donÃÕ get the message, and still talk peace? We keep talking about confidence-building measures, when Pakistan has done absolutely nothing to build any kind of confidence in us about its peaceful intentions. Jaw-jaw may be better than war-war, but jaw-jaw without strategic purpose makes no sense when it is all one-sided. Our jaw-jaw is not an answer to PakistanÃÔ not-so-covert war-war attitude. After 1971, Pakistan has realised that it canÃÕ win a conventional war with us, but it is preparing for war by every other means possible. Signals about a shift in PakistanÃÔ attitudes were available even during Interior Minister Rehman MalikÃÔ visit to Delhi last month, where he made PakistanÃÔ hostile intentions clear by trying to equate the 26/11 terror attacks with the Babri demolition, and suggested that Kargil martyr Saurabh Kalia whose bodied was handed over in a mutilated form by the Pakistanis may have been the victim of inclement weather. That we have now been handed another mutilated body by Pakistan less than a month after MalikÃÔ insensitive comments shows that we are the fools. We seem to need repeated clouting on the head with a blunt instrument to wake up to the reality that is Pakistan an enemy state. Here are six things we should never forget about Pakistan. One, PakistanÃÔ reason for existence is anti-India. Unlike India, whose reason for existence is the idea of India (secularism, peace, prosperity, etc), the Pakistani state lives only for the sake of enmity to India. This means the idea of Pakistan is bankrupt beyond enmity to India. Till the Pakistanis state and people choose to define themselves positively, there is going to be no peace. Two, if the idea of Pakistan is non-existent, and the idea of India is what enrages Pakistan, it means two things: the Pakistani state will always prepare for war, and the peaceful pauses are merely meant to give the Pakistanis breathing spaces to recuperate and build their war apparatus against us. Three, there is no point differentiating between the Pakistani state and its people, which our romantic Aman ki Aasha peace-mongers keep drilling into us. The point of this distinction between state and people is meaningless since it is the Indian state that is trying to talk peace with the Pakistani state. It is not negotiating with the Pakistani people directly. Four, if the idea of India has to win over the non-idea of Pakistan, we have to let them stew in their own juice till the illogic and foolishness of creating a state based on Islam and enmity to India is apparent to all thinking Pakistanis and the ordinary people. They have to abandon abandon the idea themselves. As things stand, the people could easily fall prey to the violent ideologies of the Pakistani Taliban and we have to be prepared for the fallout. We should always be ready for Pakistani perfidy and this means not accepting any peace overtures at face value even if we decide to talk to them for the sake of world opinion. Five, India must thus always keep the powder dry because Pakistan has always been preparing for a 1,000-year war. They know that our people have the tendency to forgive and forget Pakistani perfidies a little too quickly. This is why we have never learnt the lessons of 1948, 1965, 1971 and 1999 and 2008 (26/11). Pakistan is counting on the Indian (largely Hindu?) tendency to forget the past and move on even though they themselves will never forget. This is the greatest danger India faces today our unwillingness to confront the truth of what our enemy is like. Six, the Pakistanis understand only strength. We have to build our strengths against Pakistan economically, militarily, and in terms of our terror-fighting capabilities. Till 1971, they underestimated our military strength. Now they underestimate our secularism and economic and strengths. But underpinning it all will be our ability to make Pakistan to pay a price for misadventures. This is what we need to focus on making them pay. Two markers will let us know if Pakistan has changed. And these are: the Pakistanis change their constitution to take Islam out of it. If Pakistan becomes truly secular, there is hope for peace. Second, the role of the army is clearly made subordinate to that of the civilian authority in Pakistan. If this happens, we can again begin taking the risk of talking peace with them. There are other markers sending the 26/11 plotters to the gallows, etc but giving MFN status (most favoured nation) status to India or making visas easier are not true markers of a desire for real peace. These are deliberate ploys to lull us to believe that they are thinking peace when they are not. In fact, Pakistan will use freer visas to push more terrorism here. This is what we should expect from the Pakistani state.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/we-are-fools-6-things-we-need-to-realise-about-pakistan-581989.html
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Cevno Newbie

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Runaway grandmother sparked savage skirmish on LoC Exclusive Tit-for-tat actions over a case of border crossing Indian bunker construction on the northern reaches of the Line of Control — initiated after a grandmother crossed into Pakistan-administered Kashmir to be with her sons — sparked off a spiral of violence which culminated in the brutal killing of two soldiers in an ambush earlier this week, highly placed military and government sources have told The Hindu. The clashes, among the worst on the Line of Control since a ceasefire went into place, have provoked fears that the ceasefire may melt down. In India, news that the two soldiers were beheaded has provoked widespread outrage and calls for large-scale military retaliation. Innocuous origins However, the officials who spoke to The Hindu had a very different account — of how a relatively innocuous incident spiralled into a series of murderous clashes, before culminating in the killing of Lance-Naik Sudhakar Singh and Lance-Naik Hemraj. Both armies, the officials said, engaged in aggressive action, driven by the still-fraught situation on the Line of Control. Early in September, 70-year old Reshma Bi, left the village of Charonda, near Uri, to live with her sons and grandchildren across the Line of Control. Ms. Reshma and her husband Ibrahim Lohar, a highly-placed military source said, had remained in Charonda after their sons crossed into Pakistan-administered Kashmir several years ago, to escape police investigations of their alleged role in cross-border trafficking. Police officers contacted by The Hindu said that Ms. Reshma appeared to have left in the hope of living out her last years with her family. Ms. Reshma’s September 11 flight, a senior Srinagar-based military official said, set off alarms at the Uri-headquartered 19 infantry brigade. There, the incident was seen as highlighting vulnerabilities in defences along this stretch of the Line of Control. Charonda is located within metres of the Line of Control, outside of the three-layer counter-infiltration fencing which runs along the frontier. Inside of a week after Ms. Reshma’s departure, troops of the 9 Maratha Light Infantry began constructing observations bunkers around Charonda, seeking to monitor the movement of villagers. The construction work — barred by the terms of the Line of Control ceasefire which India and Pakistan agreed on in 2003 — provoked furious protests from Pakistani troops. Indian commanders, the military source said, conceded that the construction was in violation of the ceasefire. However, they refused to stop work, arguing that the posts faced out towards the village, posing no threat to Pakistan. Early in October, the official said, tensions began to escalate. Pakistan even made announcements over a public address system, demanding that Indian troops end the construction work. Following the announcement, shells followed. Pakistani troops fired mortar and high-calibre automatic weapons at Indian forward positions. The fire missed its intended target, but killed three villagers, 25-year-old Mohammad Shafi Khatana, 20-year-old Shaheena Bano, and a ninth-grade school student, Liaqat Ali. In the weeks leading up to the New Year, military sources said, hardly a week went by without occasional shots being fired at troops headed to the new observation posts. Finally, on January 6, matters came to a head. Following a low-grade exchange of fire that night, 19 Infantry Division commander Gulab Singh Rawat sought and obtained permission for aggressive action against the Pakistani position from where his troops were being targeted. Pakistan insists its post, Sawan Patra, was raided by Indian troops. India has denied the allegation. “None of our troops crossed the Line of Control,” said Jagdish Dahiya, an Indian army spokesperson. Either way, though, a Pakistani soldier was dead before the shooting ended — and another critically injured. “Let’s just put it this way,” a senior government official in New Delhi said, “there was no formal permission to stage a cross-border raid to target Sawan Patra. However, in the heat of fighting, these things have been known to happen. Pakistan has done this, and our forces have done this, ever since fighting began in Jammu and Kashmir in 1990.” Pakistani retaliation Pakistan chose to retaliate against the Indian action in one of the few sectors on the Line of Control where its troops have a relative tactical advantage. Fighting has been underway in the Krishna Ghati sector, on the southern end of the Haji Pir pass, since June. The skirmishes there had earlier claimed the life of Border Security Force constable P.K. Mishra and Indian Army soldier Harvinder Singh. The fighting in the summer also began with disputes over the construction of new border outposts by India. Few details have emerged on the attack, but government sources in New Delhi said a Pakistani Border Action Team — assault units that in the past have been reported to consist of both jihadists and members of the élite Special Services Group — are believed to have carried out the attack. “It is almost certainly a retaliation for what happened in Charonda”, a military official in New Delhi said. “This kind of thing has often happened in the past, though it hasn’t got quite so much media attention.” Last year, for example, there was fierce fighting Karnah, some 140 kilometres from Srinagar after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a Border Action Team. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers and, by the account of one military official, which The Hindu could not corroborate independently, beheaded two. Earlier, in July, 2008, four Pakistani troops and an Indian solider were killed in fighting near Handwara, again because of disputes over the construction of new fortifications around an Indian position, code named Eagle Post. BSF constable Bhanwar Lal was killed in a separate clash along the LoC in Rajouri, while 8 Gurkha Rifles’ Jawashwar Lami Chhame died when jihadists backed by Pakistani troops shelled an Indian forward post in Poonch. In some cases, fighting and bonhomie have gone hand in hand in different stretches of the LoC. In September 2009, Pakistani military commanders gave their Indian counterparts packets and sweets on the occasion of Eid, even as their soldiers were exchanging fire along the Krishna Ghati sector, as well as on Pargwal island, near Nikowal in Jammu. Keywords: Indo-Pakistan dialogue, bilateral relations, Line of Control, border skirmishes, ceasefire violations, Pakistan retaliation, Reshma Bi, border crossings, border action team, Indian Special Forces, Krishna Ghati sector
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/runaway-grandmother-sparked-savage-skirmish-on-loc/article4291426.ece Puts a completely different context to the events and how they were constructed.
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surajmal Newbie

surajmal

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Home Ministry has lost it. Now they are trying to rationalize this barbaric act. Oh, They have also just revealed the name of an active commander. This lot is full of traitors. Mother****ers.

DNA exclusive: Uri commanderÃÔ forceful retaliation led to beheadings?
As New Delhi raged over the attack by Pakistani troops claiming the lives of two Indian soldiers on Indian soil, and the mutilation of the bodies, the Union ministry of home has received inputs that suggest that Indian army units in the Uri sector could have provoked the incident. While there was sporadic firing exchanged in some parts ofthe LoC, a cross-border raid by the ghatak (commando) platoon of the 9th Maratha Light Infantry (MLI) in the early hours of Sunday could have been the provocation. Top sources in the Union Home and defence ministries told DNA that the Pakistani attack was in all likelihood a retaliation for the attack carried out by 9 MLI. The commander of the 161 brigade, stationed in the Churchunda sub-sector, Brigadier Gulab Singh Rawat, had decided to take a very aggressive posture. Sources said that he asked the commanding officer of 9 MLI to take ÅÑroactive action? to launch a quick raid against a post that was harassing Indian positions. The successful Indian raid led to the death of a Pakistaninon-commissioned officer and escalated tensions across the LoC. Normally, such an escalation leads to the issuing of a formal alert from the Udhampur-based North Command of the army to all its formations. This alert should have gone out to all the three corps that it commands the Nagrota (Jammu) based 16 Corps, the Srinagar-based 15 Corps and the Leh-based 14 Corps. Of these, 14 and 15 Corps are the most active as they man the LoC from Jammu right through to Kargil, from where 14 Corps takes over. Incidentally, the neighbouring 12 Brigade in Uri had just seen a change of command after Brig RK Singh took over from Brig BS Raju. Any change of command of a major formation on the LoC is a sensitive time and troops are expected to be on high alert. The absence of the alert led to all the formations running things as business as usual. That was when the Pakistanis decided to retaliate in the Mendhar sector that is part of the northern Jammu region. This area is manned by the 25th Division of the Indian Army and 13 Rajputana Rifles was one of the battalions manning this sector. While army headquarters believes that the attack was carried out by men from the Baloch regiment, it has not ruled out the role of a team of the Special Service Group (SSG) which is part of the elite Pakistani Special Forces. Reports suggest that the attacking party was dressed in black dungarees usually preferred by the SSG. Another intelligence input suggests that this could have been an attack carried out by irregulars from the LeT after its chief, Hafeez Saeed started raising Å£order Action Guards to attack Indian troop positions on the LoC. Indian intelligence experts have ruled out the attack as a major shift in policy on part of the Pakistani General Headquarters (GHC) in Rawalpindi. Ÿe believe that this was a local action purely in retaliation of what the raid our troops carried out in the Uri sector, a senior intelligence official told DNA. The Union home ministry is also looking at the role played by Brig Rawat and whether his ÅÂggressive posture could have been avoided. There is a feeling in the government that Brig Rawat has a very ÅÂggressive track record which could have escalated tensions on the LoC at a time when the nine-year-old ceasefire was holding up well. An inquiry into the incident has been ordered by Army Headquarters and a decision on Brig Rawat could also be taken in the coming days.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dna-exclusive-uri-commanders-forceful-retaliation-led-to-beheadings_1787448 Adding insult to injury, they have found their scapegoat. Don't expect anything to happen people. This country is being run by a hijron ki toli.
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the don Veteran

the don

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Pakistan soldier in Kashmir 'killed by Indian troops' A Pakistani soldier has been killed by Indian troops near the dividing line in the disputed territory of Kashmir, Pakistan's military says. The soldier was killed by Indian firing across the Line of Control, it said. It is the third such incident in five days, following the deaths of two Indian soldiers on Tuesday and a Pakistani soldier on Sunday. Claimed by both countries in its entirety, Kashmir has been a flashpoint for more than 60 years. Observation posts The Pakistani army said the "unprovoked" attack took place on Thursday afternoon as the soldier, Havildar Mohyuddin, was manning a post in the Battal sector of Kashmir. Also on Thursday, two Indian newspapers suggested the Indian army may have provoked recent fatal clashes in the Kashmir region. The reports say commanders breached a ceasefire accord by ordering new observation posts on the Line of Control after a 70-year-old woman crossed it unhindered last year. Pakistan reportedly used a tannoy system to express its opposition and then fired across the border. Claimed by both India and Pakistan; de facto partitioned when ceasefire line agreed in January 1949 Jammu and Kashmir is the only Indian state with a Muslim majority (60%) Sparked wars between India and Pakistan in 1947-48 and 1965 Third conflict in 1999, when Pakistani-backed forces infiltrated Indian-controlled territory in the Kargil area Armed revolt against Indian rule erupted in 1989, since when thousands have been killed Fears it could trigger a nuclear conflict, as Pakistan and India both declared themselves nuclear powers in 1998 One Indian newspaper said an Indian commander ordered a counter-attack on Sunday that led to a Pakistani soldier being killed. Two Indian soldiers were then killed in a Pakistani border attack on Tuesday morning. India responded to reports that the bodies had been mutilated by condemning Pakistan's actions as "barbaric" and "inhuman". Pakistan denies Indian accounts of what happened, and the Indian army has denied any provocative actions. The United States on Wednesday urged the nuclear-armed rivals to ease tension in the area. Pakistani and Indian officials had sought to play down the incidents before the latest news. Indian External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid said on Wednesday: "We cannot and must not allow escalation of this very unwholesome event that has taken place." On Thursday, his Pakistani counterpart, Hina Rabbani Khar, welcomed the comments, saying: "There was, I believe, a sense of trying to de-escalate on their side... and I think that is the right way to go." Exchanges in the disputed area are not uncommon but rarely result in fatalities. There has been a ceasefire in Kashmir since late 2003. India suspended a peace process with Pakistan following attacks by Pakistan-based militants in Mumbai in 2008. Negotiations resumed in February last year. Thousands of people have been killed in Indian-administered Kashmir since an armed revolt against Indian rule erupted in 1989. Last month, India and Pakistan signed an agreement to ease visa restrictions on travel for some citizens. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20974194

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