The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Sukh Ram was convicted of corruption. So was Narasimha Rao (later the conviction was overturned). Even for Gujarat riots, an ex-minister (who was an MLA during the riots) has been convicted. An ex-president of BJP has been convicted of corruption. Shibu Soren was convicted of murder (later overturned). Against Modi, there is a Supreme Court monitored investigation which has found no evidence. Sukh Ram is a political nobody today and has been a political nobody for years now. Some chindi MLA from Gujarat is your proof that the judicial system works? Convicted and overturned is your proof that the system works? Please. Well, at least they are blamed for suppressing the inquiry report and therefore denying the victims justice. Inaction and suppression of justice are exactly the evidence presented against Modi to purportedly establish his guilt. Okay, they suppressed the report and I think the report should be made public. This is directly in reference to you statement calling Modi a "mass murderer" and claiming that his becoming PM will be disastrous for the country. My contention is that the benchmark you are using would characterize almost every former PM and many leaders as "mass murderers", and that none of them actually broke the country apart. None broke the country apart, but plenty of times we've come close to be broken up and having a communal murderer like Modi at the top post just increases the chances of such a thing happening.
Sachin=GOD Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Vir Sanghvi is a complex character actually. There are days I like him' date=' and [b']other when I think he is a total elitist moron who was born with a silver spoon and looks at the world that way. His credentials on politicis aside the man is full with stories and anecdotes. He can talk about wine fest as much as meeting Dawood Ibrahim and Karim Lala. Either he invents them or he has lived a full life. By the way I have just started reading Vinod mehta's Lucknow Boy. You and Shwetabh should check it out. Hopefully he hits on Debonair stint somewhere too :--D Same here. He is intelligent and can be a good political commentator but I feel he thinks too highly of himself and seems to show as if he's knowledgeable in everything he speaks - be it politics, entertainment, sports, food, vine, perfumes, luxury clothes etc so it does feel he's showing off on occasions. Already read. Good read although in the early part of the books there's too much of romanticizing of Lucknow going on. BTW after you have finished this book, do read this review of the book by Shobha De :D
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Sukh Ram is a political nobody today and has been a political nobody for years now. Some chindi MLA from Gujarat is your proof that the judicial system works? Convicted and overturned is your proof that the system works? Please.You claimed that no politician has ever been convicted. I gave you examples. But you havent answered the my question - who is going to determine guilt then? Further, in the case of Modi, there is an SIT which interrogated and investigated him and found no evidence. I have gone through parts of the final report and it is obvious based on that report that there was zero credible evidence against Modi. To be more specific, what particular piece of evidence/information do you think the SIT has overlooked ? Or is your assumption of Modi's guilt based more on your gut feeling than facts? None broke the country apart, but plenty of times we've come close to be broken up and having a communal murderer like Modi at the top post just increases the chances of such a thing happening.You see, the alternative (Congress) to Modi is of the same (or even worse) nature based whatever benchmark you are using.
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 You claimed that no politician has ever been convicted. I gave you examples. But you havent answered the my question - who is going to determine guilt then? No, I claimed : No major politician has ever been convicted and never will be. No one is going to determine guilt. Politicians have kept on getting away with corruption, murders etc. etc. for decades and will continue to get away with it. Further, in the case of Modi, there is an SIT which interrogated and investigated him and found no evidence. I have gone through parts of the final report and it is obvious based on that report that there was zero credible evidence against Modi. To be more specific, what particular piece of evidence/information do you think the SIT has overlooked ? Or is you assumption of Modi's guilt based more on your gut feeling than facts? It's common sense. There is so much of hearsay about Modi's role in the riots that to deny it is deliberately shutting your eyes. As for me personally, I've said this before that I have spoken to an IAS officer who I trust, who claimed to have received a call from the CM office to do nothing. That's good enough for me. You believe your SITs and the efficient judicial system in India, I'll believe what I have experienced. I am not asking you to change your mind based on my experience. You see, the alternative (Congress) to Modi is of the same (or even worse) nature based whatever benchmark you are using. No one in the Congress involved in the '84 riots is close to being in a position of influence or likely to become the PM or hold some important ministry. Modi is. If it were Vajpayee instead I would have backed him, as I've done in the past but backing this mass murdering lunatic is lunacy in itself.
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 No' date=' I claimed : No [b']major politician has ever been convicted and never will be. No one is going to determine guilt. Politicians have kept on getting away with corruption, murders etc. etc. for decades and will continue to get away with it.Well, Shibu Soren was a sitting cabinet minister when he was convicted. Sukh Ram was an ex-cabinet minsiter. PVN was an ex-PM when was convicted. The MLA in Gujarat was a minister when she was chargesheeted. Just wanted to point out, it is again up to you (or anyone) to interpret what a "major" politician means. It's common sense. There is so much of hearsay about Modi's role in the riots that to deny it is deliberately shutting your eyes. As for me personally, I've said this before that I have spoken to an IAS officer who I trust, who claimed to have received a call from the CM office to do nothing. That's good enough for me. You believe your SITs and the efficient judicial system in India, I'll believe what I have experienced. I am not asking you to change your mind based on my experience.I dont know if you are an Indian citizen. But it is incumbent under Indian law upon you to have revealed this detail to the SIT or the court. I dont know if the IAS officer you mentioned has testified already but since there is no mention of this in the SIT report, I assume he/she hasnt. In which case, it is extremely important that you file an affidavit with the relevant court which is presently hearing the SIT closure report. Believe me, this is a serious matter.
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Well, Shibu Soren was a sitting cabinet minister when he was convicted. Sukh Ram was an ex-cabinet minsiter. PVN was an ex-PM when was convicted. The MLA in Gujarat was a minister when she was chargesheeted. Just wanted to point out, it is again up to you (or anyone) to interpret what a "major" politician means. Shibu Soren and Narasimha Rao both got away after the initial convictions because they were major politicians. Sukh Ram has been a nobody for years and it still took 15 years to convict him when sacks of currency were found in his home. MLA levels are hardly "major" - in fact these are usually the fall guys when the appearance of justice has to be given.
Rohit S. Ambani Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I can't stand Modi (IMO he played part in riots), but it's very stupid statement by Tiwary. Why businessman care about off-topic like right-wing, riots etc, they should be focused only on CM's economic policies. For law and order problems there is police and judicial machinery. If you fail in that then surely something is wrong with Indian constitution, change laws instead of personal attacks. Whole system contains loopholes, why businessmen should suffer?
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Question to Seedhi - Since Jagdish Tytler has been given a clean chit by the CBI by the same argument he is innocent as well?
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Question to Seedhi - Since Jagdish Tytler has been given a clean chit by the CBI by the same argument he is innocent as well?Under law anyone is innocent until proven guilty. But you obviously are free to personally consider anyone a criminal (as Outsider did for Modi). My argument was that if you are doing so, then apply the same standard to everyone and reason out the implications of such an application.
Clarke Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Somehow I haven't seen the Gestapo/SS or heard any songs about the Fatherland here :dontknow:
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Under law anyone is innocent until proven guilty. But you obviously are free to personally consider anyone a criminal (as Outsider did for Modi). My argument was that if you are doing so' date=' then apply the same standard to everyone and reason out the implications of such an application.[/quote'] So going by your definition of the law (innocent until proven guilty), we should not see use an argument that any of the Congress ministers including P Chidambaram (2G Scam), Pranab Mukherkee or Manmohan Singh are criminals. In other words, we on ICF should not see you posting anything which insinuates any person who is not guilty as a criminal and use it for your convenience in any argument. Fair enough?
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 So going by your definition of the law (innocent until proven guilty)' date=' we should not see use an argument that any of the Congress ministers including P Chidambaram (2G Scam), Pranab Mukherkee or Manmohan Singh are criminals. In other words, we on ICF should not see you posting anything which insinuates any person who is not guilty as a criminal and use it for your convenience in any argument. Fair enough?[/quote']Who am I to say what you should or should not do? It is up to you what you want to do. But, if you do call someone a criminal, it is reasonable to expect that there is some basis or benchmark for that assertion and that benchmark is applied uniformly. What I was arguing that if you use a certain benchmark for Modi then that would be equally applicable to leaders across the spectrum and even to Nehru. Using the same benchmark you would end up labeling almost every PM as a mass murderer. If you feel this is outlandish, then this would negate the benchmark used to judge Modi.
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Who am I to say what you should or should not do? It is up to you what you want to do. But' date=' if you do call someone a criminal, it is reasonable to expect that there is some basis or benchmark for that assertion and that benchmark is applied uniformly. What I was arguing that if you use a certain benchmark for Modi then that would be equally applicable to leaders across the spectrum and even to Nehru. Using the same benchmark you would end up labeling almost every PM as a mass murderer. If you feel this is outlandish, then this would negate the benchmark used to judge Modi.[/quote'] Seedhi - I am asking you to be consistent on the benchmark "you choose". Your current benchmark is innocent until proven guilty and I want to solicit if you are willing to be consistent with this benchmark across caste, creed and political parties. Compadre?
Clarke Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Anyone doesn't see the tragedy here ? A state govt tries to bring investment and the Central govt suggests Fascism as the order of the day ? Isn't that a new low for the deshbhakt Congress ?
jairamesh Posted January 13, 2013 Author Posted January 13, 2013 Anyone doesn't see the tragedy here ? A state govt tries to bring investment and the Central govt suggests Fascism as the order of the day ? Isn't that a new low for the deshbhakt Congress ? Succinctly point. Congress got rhetoric wrong this time. It's not elections time. At least take advantage of one of India's biggest trade exhibitions to attract FDI. India's current account deficit is not healthy, inflation not at sustainable levels, rupee rate is making import of crude oil expensive. There are some excellent infrastructure development programs underway, not least managed by the Central government like the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, which the Japanese at Vibrant Gujarat have pledged billions of dollars to the project. But morons like Tewari are busy warning/scare mongering these investors of supporting a Nazi regime. :headshake:
Yoda-esque Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Seedhi - I am asking you to be consistent on the benchmark "you choose". Your current benchmark is innocent until proven guilty and I want to solicit if you are willing to be consistent with this benchmark across caste' date=' creed and political parties. Compadre?[/quote'] Need to brush up on your Spanish
Lurker Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Need to brush up on your Spanish :hysterical: Good catch Yoda saab...
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Seedhi - I am asking you to be consistent on the benchmark "you choose". Your current benchmark is innocent until proven guilty and I want to solicit if you are willing to be consistent with this benchmark across caste' date=' creed and political parties. Compadre?[/quote']My benchmark is very simple - I do not consider any leader of India to be a mass murderer, based on whatever evidence or activities or reports I have heard or read about. For me, calling someone a mass murderer in the league of Hitler or Pol Pot is a very, very serious charge, perhaps the most heinous accusation that can be leveled against anyone, and it requires an extra-ordinary amount of evidence to support it. There is no way any PM/lCM/minister/leader in India comes even close to it.
jairamesh Posted January 13, 2013 Author Posted January 13, 2013 My benchmark is very simple - I do not consider any leader of India to be a mass murderer' date=' based on whatever evidence or activities or reports I have heard or read about. For me, calling someone a mass murderer in the league of [b']Hitler or Pol Pot is a very, very serious charge, perhaps the most heinous accusation that can be leveled against anyone, and it requires an extra-ordinary amount of evidence to support it. There is no way any PM/lCM/minister/leader in India comes even close to it. Let's not forget 21st century's only mass murderer, George "Dubya" Bush who directly ordered the death of over 100,000 Iraqi people. And this genocidal crusader got voted in twice by the people from land of the free and the brave. It was too bad Iraqis didn't get to vote in the US presidential elections.
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 My benchmark is very simple - I do not consider any leader of India to be a mass murderer' date=' based on whatever evidence or activities or reports I have heard or read about. For me, calling someone a mass murderer in the league of Hitler or Pol Pot is a very, very serious charge, perhaps the most heinous accusation that can be leveled against anyone, and it requires an extra-ordinary amount of evidence to support it. There is no way any PM/lCM/minister/leader in India comes even close to it.[/quote'] You understand that your benchmark is - not guilty until proven for X, for any person in the country. It is rather not - "not guilty as a mass murderer" ONLY, right?
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