How Modi conquered by raising the level of the game

[Lurker]

Paisa ped pe nahin na ugta hai. Someone has to pay for it. I am personally for some sort of package to Bihar. I am just stating that this will be opposed by other states who will also demand the same. I am also in support of Nitish Kumar's aggressive policy of putting forth Bihar's demands. I just wonder what sort of useless leaders Bihar had earlier .. just as an example they could not get even one IIT, IIM or any top class educational institute set up in Bihar. What an irony given Bihar's history, size of population etc.

Of course we have had useless leaders. I mean which other state will lose over 1 lakh crore simply to assist other parts of the nation :hysterical: Only to be told later on by a fellow citizen later on ke paisa ped pe nahin ugta hai. lol. (feel free to read up the whole link i put above). I mean kissi jamaane mein ugta tha, aajkal nahin ugta hai..I get it :two_thumbs_up:

I just think agriculture will not be able to support the huge population. At some point you need capital investment to set up industries. Bihar has human resource in abundance and that has to be utilized optimally. It ought to be a mixture of rural and industrial.

Look I am as big a Bihar-phile as you would see. And yet I am also the first one to concede that if Patna has to compete with say Ahmedabad to get an Industrial Tender, Patna will lose handsomely. Forget Bombay or Delhi or Poona or Bangalore. Which sane industrialist will put Patna even ahead of say Chandigarh? So what should Bihar, and Nitish Kumar, do? Wait another 30 years till we catch up? Or build on what we are already good at?? Here is a good example. You buy cr@ppy gobhi in Delhi/Bombay for 100 bucks a kilo. You can get that in Bihar for 5 bucks. And fantastic quality too. Grow it and develop a sustainable model. Why worry about Infosys coming to town? I am not averse to it but I am also realistic that it is not happening right away.

[surajmal]

Modi is lesser of the evils for the electorate. We are really unfortunate to have such crap choices. (Modi vs Rahul Gandhi)

Jayaprakash Narayan. Unfortunately, he is only a state level player as of yet. Hopefully, he'll come into prominence in 2014.

[Precambrian]

My focus is not on a personal judgment of innocence and guilt. It is on the quality of investigation that has gone into the allegations. In the case of Tytler and in general for the 1984 riots, the cases were not pursued seriously at all for a long time. And the investigating authority was not independent. I can only contrast this with the Gujarat situation where an independent SC monitored body has prosecuted several cases and convicted dozens of individuals, including an ex-minister. The same body examined a list of mostly vague allegations against N. Modi, interrogated him for 9 hours, examined dozens upon dozens of witnesses, cell phone records and produced a comprehensive report exonerating him. Now everyone is free to form their personal opinion of Modi's guilt, but my expectation would be that you go through that report and base your opinion on facts rather than feeling.

B->

[The Outsider]

My focus is not on a personal judgment of innocence and guilt. It is on the quality of investigation that has gone into the allegations. In the case of Tytler and in general for the 1984 riots, the cases were not pursued seriously at all for a long time. And the investigating authority was not independent. I can only contrast this with the Gujarat situation where an independent SC monitored body has prosecuted several cases and convicted dozens of individuals, including an ex-minister. The same body examined a list of mostly vague allegations against N. Modi, interrogated him for 9 hours, examined dozens upon dozens of witnesses, cell phone records and produced a comprehensive report exonerating him. Now everyone is free to form their personal opinion of Modi's guilt, but my expectation would be that you go through that report and base your opinion on facts rather than feeling.

I am sorry but VP Singh was not in power 14 years after the incident and even during BJP rule no effort was made to fast track cases related to the '84 riots. By your theory, the odds cannot be stacked more than having your political opponents in charge of CBI etc. and Tytler and Kumar came out clean on that. So their level of getting cleared is a higher one than Modi, who by the way I was reading recently hasn't come clean yet and the court has admitted a petition to allow the examination of his role. But let's say that VP Singh did not do anything and 14 years was too long a time for BJP to do anything, what do you expect Rahul Gandhi to do even more years after that? How is Rahul Gandhi in any way connected to the '84 riots? Because in my post related to the Gandhi family your reply was:

Congress bears the responsibility for the riots as well as for stalling all attempts at justice for 1984 riot victims. For the Gujarat riots the justice system has delivered substantially. Most importantly, the same mechanism that has delivered justice in Gujarat has examined Modi's role and found no evidence against him.

[The Outsider]

The "high command" and the usual coterie of party seniors involve a lot of people who actively supported '84 riots. Thecurrent crop of Gandhi family may not be directly involved, but they still run under the Congress banner. A good analogy would be Hitler's kid running for election under the Nazi party banner with Himmler and Co as mentors. It was not the kid who gassed the jews right? So its ok to vote for him and bring the Nazi party to power again?

Like? Which Congress leader involved in the '84 riots still has a prominent role to play? The PM from that time is dead, the Home Minister from that time is dead. The foot soldiers, Tytler and Kumar, have been marginalized. Run under the Congress banner? Vajpayee and Modi run on the same ideals? Nehru and Narasimha Rao? Since you bring in Hitler, discussion on Modi's development policies is like having a discussion on Hitler's development of the autobahn and volkswagen - superficial and dishonest. And yeah voting for your hypothetical Hitler's kid is still better than voting for Hitler himself, who happens to be Modi.

[The Outsider]

We already know about your and Seedhi 's view about riots happened in Gujarat in many other threads. Would like to know how do you view the speech given by Modi and what exactly is Rahul Gandhi's vision about India and its future. And also would want to see your comment about the awards won by Gujarat.

I went through the contents of the speech and could not find anything which can be construed as revolutionary or novel. It was the same old speech by some neta. Obviously, Modi is a much more accomplished speaker than Rahul Gandhi, a more seasoned politician, and a better administrator. But for me these things come into relevance only after Modi does time for his role in '02. Once he has done time for that we can move on to the next steps, till then he is just a criminal roaming the streets freely. And whatever Rahul Gandhi's plans might be they are less likely to involve slaughtering of minorities like Modi's.

[Precambrian]

I went through the contents of the speech and could not find anything which can be construed as revolutionary or novel. It was the same old speech by some neta. Obviously, Modi is a much more accomplished speaker than Rahul Gandhi, a more seasoned politician, and a better administrator. But for me these things come into relevance only after Modi does time for his role in '02. Once he has done time for that we can move on to the next steps, till then he is just a criminal roaming the streets freely. And whatever Rahul Gandhi's plans might be they are less likely to involve slaughtering of minorities like Modi's.

Modi ordered the killings of 02? That's news.

[seedhi]

I think you are contradicting yourself here. You say this,

I am sorry but VP Singh was not in power 14 years after the incident and even during BJP rule no effort was made to fast track cases related to the '84 riots.

and,

By your theory, the odds cannot be stacked more than having your political opponents in charge of CBI etc. and Tytler and Kumar came out clean on that. So their level of getting cleared is a higher one than Modi, who by the way I was reading recently hasn't come clean yet and the court has admitted a petition to allow the examination of his role.

So, was BJP according to you seriously pursuing the case against Tytler or not after 1998? Point is that that 14 years had passed and there was serious degradation of evidence. In any case the CBI has not been able to give justice in ANY riots case. The SIT has a track record of providing justice in Gujarat. Even the Supreme Court has praised its role. Even the so called activists have acknowledged that the wheels of justice have moved in Gujarat due to the SIT. There is unanimous opinion that Gujarat 2002 is the first major riot in the country where there has been substantial delivery of justice. The facts and figures of prosecution and convictions prove this. Secondly, there has been a non-BJP govt at the centre for 9 years, and a very vocal set of activists also. If there was any shred of evidence against Modi he would have been nailed.

But let's say that VP Singh did not do anything and 14 years was too long a time for BJP to do anything, what do you expect Rahul Gandhi to do even more years after that? How is Rahul Gandhi in any way connected to the '84 riots? Because in my post related to the Gandhi family your reply was:

I was just stating that Congress has not been able to deliver justice in the riots, even till today. It bears the primary responsibility as it was in power essentially for 14 years (minus one year in between) from 1984. Forget even about Tytler, the number of prosecutions and convictions for a riot that killed 3000+ people is pathetically negligible.

[seedhi]

I went through the contents of the speech and could not find anything which can be construed as revolutionary or novel. It was the same old speech by some neta. Obviously, Modi is a much more accomplished speaker than Rahul Gandhi, a more seasoned politician, and a better administrator. But for me these things come into relevance only after Modi does time for his role in '02. Once he has done time for that we can move on to the next steps, till then he is just a criminal roaming the streets freely. And whatever Rahul Gandhi's plans might be they are less likely to involve slaughtering of minorities like Modi's.

As far as I can see Modi is the only politician who openly and continuously talks of "minimum government, maximum governance", i.e. of smaller government. And that government has "no business being in business". He is easily and by far the most pro-capitalist and pro-entrepreneur politician in the country. If you just look at the pragmatic and non-sops policy the Gujarat govt has followed specifically in the area of electricity, it is almost unparalleled in the country.

[The Outsider]

I think you are contradicting yourself here. You say this, and, So, was BJP according to you seriously pursuing the case against Tytler or not after 1998?

No, I am not contradicting myself. I am trying to show your inconsistencies. VP Singh was in power and was at loggerheads with Rajiv Gandhi but you completely ignore that fact. You say 14 years is too long a time gap for evidence to survive but expect SIT to find evidence after 7 years? How is 7 years not a long enough time to remove evidence? You claim that SIT was neutral but when pointed out that CBI was adverse to the Congress you ignore that fact.

Point is that that 14 years had passed and there was serious degradation of evidence. In any case the CBI has not been able to give justice in ANY riots case. The SIT has a track record of providing justice in Gujarat. Even the Supreme Court has praised its role. Even the so called activists have acknowledged that the wheels of justice have moved in Gujarat due to the SIT. There is unanimous opinion that Gujarat 2002 is the first major riot in the country where there has been substantial delivery of justice. The facts and figures of prosecution and convictions prove this. Secondly, there has been a non-BJP govt at the centre for 9 years, and a very vocal set of activists also. If there was any shred of evidence against Modi he would have been nailed.

BJP was in power at the center when the riots happened and have been in power at the state. Are they really that naive that they would allow evidence to survive for so long. Can evidence not be destroyed in a shorter time frame than 14 years? Evidence would have to be collected locally and survival of evidence depends more on who controls the state and local machinery. Again I urge you to use common sense. What are the chances that witnesses are lying about phone calls Jafri made to the CM? Why would the CM ignore the request of a former MP to send police? If the CM did in fact ask for police to be sent, why would the DIG/SP ignore the CM's order? How long does it take to send the police? 1 hour? 2 hours?

I was just stating that Congress has not been able to deliver justice in the riots, even till today. It bears the primary responsibility as it was in power essentially for 14 years (minus one year in between) from 1984. Forget even about Tytler, the number of prosecutions and convictions for a riot that killed 3000+ people is pathetically negligible.

But according to your own admission it has been too late to give justice since 1998, so why should the current Congress leadership be held accountable for the failure of the leadership prior to the magic year of 1998 by which time all evidence of the '84 riots was destroyed.

[ravishingravi]

Well I have complete faith in Modi as an administrator having just visited Gujarat and especially seeing the great work they have done in renewable energy. On the issue of riots, whatever the law says its final. If guilty, he should be executed. Baseless rants for or against him notwithstanding. But I do fear certain dictatorial and fascistic tendencies he has shown to curb freedom of expression in artistic stream typically, stopping the release of Fanaa or Parzania which was based on Gujarat riots.

[seedhi]

No' date=' I am not contradicting myself. I am trying to show your inconsistencies. VP Singh was in power and was at loggerheads with Rajiv Gandhi but you completely ignore that fact. You say 14 years is too long a time gap for evidence to survive [b']but expect SIT to find evidence after 7 years? How is 7 years not a long enough time to remove evidence? You claim that SIT was neutral but when pointed out that CBI was adverse to the Congress you ignore that fact. BJP was in power at the center when the riots happened and have been in power at the state. Are they really that naive that they would allow evidence to survive for so long. Can evidence not be destroyed in a shorter time frame than 14 years? Evidence would have to be collected locally and survival of evidence depends more on who controls the state and local machinery.

That is the very point. The SIT HAS BEEN ABLE TO DELIVER JUSTICE. Among the over hundred persons convicted by the SIT is an ex-minister of the Gujarat government and also people related to VHP and even corporators of the Congress. So if the evidence was destroyed how did the convictions take place ? On the other hand in the 1984 riots, there has been no justice AT ALL. So in which investigation do you think the evidence has been destroyed and in which has it remained effective?

Again I urge you to use common sense. What are the chances that witnesses are lying about phone calls Jafri made to the CM? Why would the CM ignore the request of a former MP to send police? If the CM did in fact ask for police to be sent, why would the DIG/SP ignore the CM's order? How long does it take to send the police? 1 hour? 2 hours?

Ok so I want to take this particular point up in detail. This will clearly illustrate what sort of hackery is going on. The riots happened in March 2002 and the Jafri was killed in the riots in early March. The police complaint that was registered immediately after the riots DID NOT MENTION ANY phone call to or from Modi. Interestingly it mentioned other phone calls - to Sonia Gandhi, the Commissioner of police and the mayor, but no mention of any phone call to Modi. In 2004, the wife of Jafri testified to the Nanavati commission. Again, there was NO MENTION of any phone call to Modi. In 2007, Teesta Setalvad took up the case and the complaint was amended in two interesting ways. First, the names of two Congress functionaries was removed from the rioters list and secondly for the first time, after 5 years, the mention of a phone call to Modi was made. Think about it, the original complaint did not mention any phone call to Modi even though other phone calls were mentioned. This was repeated in the testimony to the Nanavati Commission by Jafri's wife. And after 5 years a mention of a phone call to Modi is made. Then three years later, in 2009-10 this is further embellished by claiming that Modi abused the late Jafri. Fact is that there is no record of any phone call to Modi by Jafri and this has been stated by the SIT.

But according to your own admission it has been too late to give justice since 1998, so why should the current Congress leadership be held accountable for the failure of the leadership prior to the magic year of 1998 by which time all evidence of the '84 riots was destroyed.

This is the very leadership that doesnt tire of singing praises of Rajiv Gandhi, and vows to follow in his footsteps. And there are enough remnants from the era of Rajiv Gandhi and PVN.

[surajmal]

One of these days, Outy is going to serenade us with his rendition of Islam khatarey mein hai... :orderorder:

[Ram]

What we are seeing, is the most lame attempt at refurbishing the image of a maligned politician in India's history. The Modi fanboys can go on relentlessly day-dreaming about how their super-hero will one day become Prime Minister of India, but simple fact of the matter is, that is not going to happen. Dont be fooled by the multiple electoral gains Modi has had in Gujrat in the last 10 years. After all, that was the whole point of his inaction during the 2002 riots - Polarize the various communities so much that Gujrat is an electoral lock for BJP, at least until Modi is around. Let the man go out of his comfort-zone in Gujrat. Let him go campaign in other states, like UP, Bihar, the South etc and see how he fares.

[The Outsider]

That is the very point. The SIT HAS BEEN ABLE TO DELIVER JUSTICE. Among the over hundred persons convicted by the SIT is an ex-minister of the Gujarat government and also people related to VHP and even corporators of the Congress. So if the evidence was destroyed how did the convictions take place ? On the other hand in the 1984 riots, there has been no justice AT ALL. So in which investigation do you think the evidence has been destroyed and in which has it remained effective?

The SIT submitted it's report last year. The vast majority of the convictions are from before the SIT report. So, will you praise the Congress for delivering justice?

Ok so I want to take this particular point up in detail. This will clearly illustrate what sort of hackery is going on. The riots happened in March 2002 and the Jafri was killed in the riots in early March. The police complaint that was registered immediately after the riots DID NOT MENTION ANY phone call to or from Modi. Interestingly it mentioned other phone calls - to Sonia Gandhi, the Commissioner of police and the mayor, but no mention of any phone call to Modi. In 2004, the wife of Jafri testified to the Nanavati commission. Again, there was NO MENTION of any phone call to Modi. In 2007, Teesta Setalvad took up the case and the complaint was amended in two interesting ways. First, the names of two Congress functionaries was removed from the rioters list and secondly for the first time, after 5 years, the mention of a phone call to Modi was made. Think about it, the original complaint did not mention any phone call to Modi even though other phone calls were mentioned. This was repeated in the testimony to the Nanavati Commission by Jafri's wife. And after 5 years a mention of a phone call to Modi is made. Then three years later, in 2009-10 this is further embellished by claiming that Modi abused the late Jafri. Fact is that there is no record of any phone call to Modi by Jafri and this has been stated by the SIT.

You really expect that phone call records will be found? You think Modi would not have removed evidence for the phone calls? And just because some allegations are made after a gap of years doesn't necessarily make them false. But this was just an illustration and an example. Even the Amicus Curiae concluded that there was enough meat in the allegations for a case against Modi. The guy was a former Supreme Court judge. There are just so many incidents like Bhatt's testimony, the presence of Health and some other ministers in the police control room, the allegation from Jafri and other witnesses, the fact that no criminal action was recommended by the SIT despite finding 2 police officers negligent. One can believe 1-2 incidents like this to be a fabrication or something but when you have one incident after another piling up like this it takes hell of an imagination to conclude that Modi had nothing to do with all this.

This is the very leadership that doesnt tire of singing praises of Rajiv Gandhi, and vows to follow in his footsteps. And there are enough remnants from the era of Rajiv Gandhi and PVN.

Like? Which current influential Congress leader was also involved in the '84 riots or was in a position of influence?

[The Outsider]

After all' date=' that was the whole point of his inaction during the 2002 riots - Polarize the various communities so much that Gujrat is an electoral lock for BJP, at least until Modi is around. Let the man go out of his comfort-zone in Gujrat.[b'] Let him go campaign in other states, like UP, Bihar, the South etc and see how he fares.

Let him campaign? The guy has got his ass whipped in every election he has campaigned in. Remember reading somewhere BJP won a grand total of 35 seats out of the 180 Lok Sabha seats he had campaigned in. :hysterical: That is of course in addition to the stellar electoral successes in places like UP, so much so that guys like Nitish Kumar door se haath jod lete hai, ki sirjee aap mat aao humein harane.

[BeautifulGame]

The Congress directly controlled the investigating authority' date=' i.e. the police and CBI. In the case of Gujarat, the SIT set up by the Supreme Court is completely independent of BJP's influence. Since a completely independent investigating agency, monitored by the Supreme Court, has found no evidence against N. Modi, I give this process much greater credibility.[/quote'] Obviously the fact that most of the witnesses are from Gujarat and hence the state govt will have huge influence in manipulating these witness will never be an issue in affecting the credibility of Gujrat riots case and Modi

[seedhi]

The SIT submitted it's report last year. The vast majority of the convictions are from before the SIT report.

So? the SIT is the same. The same people who constitute the SIT have prosecuted and convicted over a hundred people. Some of the cases are still going on.

So, will you praise the Congress for delivering justice?

What?!! Let me repeat for you, the SIT IS AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY monitored by the SC. The Congress or the BJP has got nothing to do with it.

You really expect that phone call records will be found? You think Modi would not have removed evidence for the phone calls? And just because some allegations are made after a gap of years doesn't necessarily make them false. But this was just an illustration and an example.

Did Modi stop Zakia Jafri from revealing this to the Nanavati Commission? The SIT has found no evidence of such a phone call. It is an independent agency monitored by the Supreme Court.

Even the Amicus Curiae concluded that there was enough meat in the allegations for a case against Modi. The guy was a former Supreme Court judge.

Firstly, Raju Ramachandran was never a SC judge. Secondly, he did not make any positive comment on the quality of evidence, in fact he himself severely doubted Sanjiv Bhatt's credibility. His opinion was that all of this should be decided in the court. But that was not agreed by the SIT, and the Supreme Court sided with the SIT.

There are just so many incidents like Bhatt's testimony, the presence of Health and some other ministers in the police control room, the allegation from Jafri and other witnesses, the fact that no criminal action was recommended by the SIT despite finding 2 police officers negligent. One can believe 1-2 incidents like this to be a fabrication or something but when you have one incident after another piling up like this it takes hell of an imagination to conclude that Modi had nothing to do with all this.

Each and every allegation has been dealt with in the SIT report. I urge you to read that report first, it is an exhaustive exposition of how evidence was sought to be fabricated and perverted just to nail Modi.

Like? Which current influential Congress leader was also involved in the '84 riots or was in a position of influence?

Pranab Mukherjee for one. He is the President of India currently and was a member of the cabinet during 1984. Chidambaram was a member of the PVN Cabinet when Mumbai burnt in 1992-93. Sharad Pawar is a current member of the cabinet and he was the Maharashtra CM during 92-93. Tarun Gogoi is the current CM of Assam and there were riots there just last year. In any case this Congress party swears by Rajiv Gandhi.

[BeautifulGame]

Let Modi campaign BJP to victory in South? Just show how ignorant some are when it comes to the politics of South India.

[seedhi]

Obviously the fact that most of the witnesses are from Gujarat and hence the state govt will have huge influence in manipulating these witness will never be an issue in affecting the credibility of Gujrat riots case and Modi

But look at the performance of the SIT. The SIT has been able to convict over a hundred people in the riots cases, including an ex-minister in the state govt, congress corporators and VHP leaders. If the evidence was manipulated then these convictions would not have happened. Clearly, the SIT has established its credibility and thus its exoneration of Modi also cannot be dismissed. Just read the exhaustive report of the SIT.