Indian bowlers

[Marut]

BCCI has not done enough for India...the richest board in the world has a crap of a team and can't find one bowler who would rank amongst the legends.

[beetle]

BCCI has not done enough for India...the richest board in the world has a crap of a team and can't find one bowler who would rank amongst the legends.

+1

[kubrickian]

BCCI has not done enough for India...the richest board in the world has a crap of a team and can't find one bowler who would rank amongst the legends.

Kumble, Kapil Dev, Srinath ARE legends. Harbhajan could have been a great bowler if he hadnt played too much T20 and just stuck to longer version.

[Marut]

Kumble' date=' Kapil Dev, Srinath ARE legends. Harbhajan could have been a great bowler if he hadnt played too much T20 and just stuck to longer version.[/quote'] For me a legend bowler is one who has a sub 25 average or very close to that. The ones you named are Indian legends who average around 30, but not global legends. Every test playing nation except India and Bangladesh have sub 25 bowlers. So what has BCCI accomplished? Pretty little given their resources at their disposal.

[adi B]

For me a legend bowler is one who has a sub 25 average or very close to that. The ones you named are Indian legends who average around 30, but not global legends. Every test playing nation except India and Bangladesh have sub 25 bowlers. So what has BCCI accomplished? Pretty little given their resources at their disposal.

true

[kubrickian]

For me a legend bowler is one who has a sub 25 average or very close to that. The ones you named are Indian legends who average around 30, but not global legends. Every test playing nation except India and Bangladesh have sub 25 bowlers. So what has BCCI accomplished? Pretty little given their resources at their disposal.

India plays mostly on patta wickets where 500 and 600 are the order of the day and you expect bowlers to have average under 25. Know what you are talking about.

[Marut]

India plays mostly on patta wickets where 500 and 600 are the order of the day and you expect bowlers to have average under 25. Know what you are talking about.

So is Pakistan. Look at their bowlers. Anyways, which of our bowlers have sub 25 average playing away, where you think it is not patta. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=100;qualval2=wickets;team=6;template=results;type=bowling Of all bowlers with >100 wickets, Zaheer at 30.43 tops our bowlers for away matches. How do our bowlers fare on pacy wickets? http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=50;qualval1=wickets;team=6;template=results;type=bowling Of all bowlers with >50 wickets, Zaheer at 30.60 tops our bowlers for away matches in England, South Africa, WI, Australia and New Zealand. So, your argument that our bowlers are not sub 25 due to the wickets does not hold. Our bowlers don't have sub 25 average any where, much less over their entire career.

[kubrickian]

^^Even in domestic cricket, our pitches are flat. How many good fast bowlers can you produce if wickets are like these ? Only very recently, there has been a change in wickets. Result is 8 out of 10 top wicket takers in FC this season are seamers and only 2 are spinners. In the future, you will see a lot better seam bowlers playing for India. Already, B Kumar and Shami look a lot better than most young seamers who played for India. Also I disagree that pitches in Pakistan are entirely flat. In domestic cricket, they tend to have grass on their pitches and assist seam bowling. When they play tests against overseas teams, they prepare flat wickets or pitches which break up and help spinners.

[shuraim]

karachi and faisalabad have plate and placid tracks

[Marut]

^^Even in domestic cricket, our pitches are flat. How many good fast bowlers can you produce if wickets are like these ? Only very recently, there has been a change in wickets. Result is 8 out of 10 top wicket takers in FC this season are seamers and only 2 are spinners. In the future, you will see a lot better seam bowlers playing for India. Already, B Kumar and Shami look a lot better than most young seamers who played for India. Also I disagree that pitches in Pakistan are entirely flat. In domestic cricket, they tend to have grass on their pitches and assist seam bowling. When they play tests against overseas teams, they prepare flat wickets or pitches which break up and help spinners.

You are giving reasons why we don't have sub 25 bowlers. I dont disagree. Fact remains that India or BCCI could not produce one legendary fast bowler in 80 years of our cricketing history. Pakistan with similar problems could produce many legends. It is too early to predict the future of Bhuvan or Shami. Irfan Pathan, Sreesanth, Munaf, Nehra etc all looking very promising when they started out, then lost their way. Irfan Pathan, the way he started, I had thought that he would go on to become a legend. He fell way short of that. He looked more promising than Bhuvi and Shami when he started. Let Bhuvi and Shami play for 2 years and then we can judge.

[kubrickian]

You are giving reasons why we don't have sub 25 bowlers. I dont disagree. Fact remains that India or BCCI could not produce one legendary fast bowler in 80 years of our cricketing history.

Kapil Dev. I proved you wrong. The problem with you is that you are getting hung up about averages. 434 wickets is no joke. Being one of the highest wicket takers in the world means one is a legendary bowler.

[The Outsider]

So is Pakistan. Look at their bowlers. Anyways, which of our bowlers have sub 25 average playing away, where you think it is not patta. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=100;qualval2=wickets;team=6;template=results;type=bowling Of all bowlers with >100 wickets, Zaheer at 30.43 tops our bowlers for away matches. How do our bowlers fare on pacy wickets? http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=50;qualval1=wickets;team=6;template=results;type=bowling Of all bowlers with >50 wickets, Zaheer at 30.60 tops our bowlers for away matches in England, South Africa, WI, Australia and New Zealand. So, your argument that our bowlers are not sub 25 due to the wickets does not hold. Our bowlers don't have sub 25 average any where, much less over their entire career.

That is such a naive analysis. You can't just construct filters like that and conclude that the poorer averages are because of lack of quality from the bowlers. So many factors play a role. Kapil had terrible support bowling of fast bowlers and spinners. Don't you think that plays a role in his higher average? There were so many occasions when he would take out 2-3 wickets in his first spell, but by the time he came back the middle order had settled in. Wouldn't he have had a better average if other bowlers had taken 2-3 more wickets and Kapil got more chances to bowl at newer batsmen under pressure? Or the fact that our ordinary batting away from home has meant on so many occasions that the bowlers are on the defensive right from the start defending a low score and the opposition batsmen under minimal pressure. Look at how Kumble's fortunes abroad transformed after our batting started putting up competitive scores away from home in the 2000s. Such statistical filtering hides so much more than it reveals.

[Ultimate_Game]

Kumble' date=' Kapil Dev, Srinath ARE legends. Harbhajan could have been a great bowler if he hadnt played too much T20 and just stuck to longer version.[/quote'] Srinath a legend??? Really?

[saneindian]

Indeed surprising given the diplomatic relations we have with Afghans and the billions our govt is pumping in to ensure a close tie up in the post NATO Afghanistan. Given the huge popularity of cricket in Afghanistan, think we should use this opportunity to help their cricket team anywhich way possible. Let them come over, play the Ranji sides during the off season, let them use our facilities.

[Marut]

Kapil Dev. I proved you wrong. The problem with you is that you are getting hung up about averages. 434 wickets is no joke. Being one of the highest wicket takers in the world means one is a legendary bowler.

Kapildev is better known as a legendary allrounder. Not as a legendary bowler. Kapildev will not figure purely as a fast bowler in world XI teams 1,2,3,4,5,6..., unless the team is selected by an Indian. That is not the sign of a global legend. There are so many bowlers better than him. Kapil played a lot and took a lot of wickets, his strength was match fitness. Hadlee took 431 wickets is just 80 tests at an average of 22, while Kapil needed 50%+ more tests. Kapil dev's outswingers were very good, but he lacked a good inswinger and sheer pace, that is the main reason his strike rates and averages are not as good as the legendary sub 25 bowlers. Not just because he was toiling on flat beds.

[The Outsider]

Kapildev is better known as a legendary allrounder. Not as a legendary bowler. Kapildev will not figure purely as a fast bowler in world XI teams 1,2,3,4,5,6..., unless the team is selected by an Indian. That is not the sign of a global legend. There are so many bowlers better than him. Kapil played a lot and took a lot of wickets, his strength was match fitness. Hadlee took 431 wickets is just 80 tests at an average of 22, while Kapil needed 50%+ more tests. Kapil dev's outswingers were very good, but he lacked a good inswinger and sheer pace, that is the main reason his strike rates and averages are not as good as the legendary sub 25 bowlers. Not just because he was toiling on flat beds.

If your standards are the likes of Hadlee and McGrath then Kapil was not that good, but he would be among the top 15-20 fast bowlers or so and better than a lot of bowlers who averaged better than him like Gillespie, Merv Hughes, McDermott, Ntini, Bob Willis etc.

[Marut]

If your standards are the likes of Hadlee and McGrath then Kapil was not that good' date=' but he would be among the top 15-20 fast bowlers or so and better than a lot of bowlers who averaged better than him like Gillespie, Merv Hughes, McDermott, Ntini, Bob Willis etc.[/quote'] These are my bowling legends since 1970. Marshall Ambrose Roberts Garner Holding Bishop Walsh Donald Steyn Pollock Hadlee Imran Waqar Akram McGrath Lillee Kapil will be within top 25 bowlers. Sub 25 average is generally considered the hallmark of a bowling legend, like 50 is considered the hallmark of a batting legend. Almost every one in the above list meets the criterion. Every batsman with 50+ average is not a legend, but every bowler with sub 25 over a full career is a legend, because this species is rare. Over a long career, a great bowler would average below 25 for a significant length of his career, say at least five years. Kapil never meets that requirement, he did not average below 25 for even a single year of his career, except perhaps one or two of his early years. Botham would be a close to a true legend because his first six years were purely legendary stuff. Kapil lacked sheer pace or the variations most of the above legends had. That is why he did not match their averages and strike rates. As a batsman, averages do not mean every thing, but as a bowler averages are a lot more reliable indicator of match winningness. Are you able to select one sub 25 bowler who was simply not world class? No way! Kapil's positives include excellent fitness, durability, his fighting spirit and his ability to play competitively against the mighty West Indies early in his career. But Kapil did not live upto his immense potential after the first three years, else he would have surely been an all time legend like Hadlee or Imran.

[kubrickian]

Pollock, Ambrose, Imran Khan, McGrath are not pace bowlers. It shows how little you know. They are mostly medium-fast bowlers, bowling around 135 kph on average. Kapil also bowled at the same pace most of his career but slowed down further towards the end because of age. You have also completely derailed this thread. Read the topic again.

[ganeshran]

Pollock' date=' [b']Ambrose, Imran Khan, McGrath are not pace bowlers. It shows how little you know. They are mostly medium-fast bowlers, bowling around 135 kph on average. Kapil also bowled at the same pace most of his career but slowed down further towards the end because of age. You have also completely derailed this thread. Read the topic again.

[kubrickian]

^^His strengths were accuracy and got bounce because he was very tall but he was not express.