Indian bowlers

[express bowling]

1) I think there can be no dispute that India needs to find more bowlers with low averages and strike rates. 2) The pace of a bowler is not an issue in this thread. Fact is , we have not produced enough strike bowlers. 3) Some have argued that Kapil etc. were not as successful because there was not enough support from the other end. Fact us, it has been a failure of our cricketing system that we have not produced 2 decent bowlers simultaneously in the last 30 yrs, barring Srinath and Kumble for a few years. 4) Some have given reasons as to why we have not produced great bowlers. There are ofcourse reasons but the result has been disappointing and needs to be accepted and corrected. 5) To have a few bowlers over time with < 26 average and /or low strike rates, is ofcourse very important.

[The Outsider]

These are my bowling legends since 1970. Marshall Ambrose Roberts Garner Holding Bishop Walsh Donald Steyn Pollock Hadlee Imran Waqar Akram McGrath Lillee

I agree that all of the above except Bishop are great bowlers. Walsh was not in the same class as the rest either but his longevity works for him.

Kapil will be within top 25 bowlers. Sub 25 average is generally considered the hallmark of a bowling legend, like 50 is considered the hallmark of a batting legend. Almost every one in the above list meets the criterion. Every batsman with 50+ average is not a legend, but every bowler with sub 25 over a full career is a legend, because this species is rare.

The criteria works for fast bowlers and not spinners. Since the use of covered wickets Murali is the only spinner who fits the sub 25 criteria with Warne coming very close, but surely there have been a lot of great spinners over the last 40-50 years besides these two. And if you take out minnows even Murali struggles to get to the 25 figure.

Over a long career, a great bowler would average below 25 for a significant length of his career, say at least five years. Kapil never meets that requirement, he did not average below 25 for even a single year of his career, except perhaps one or two of his early years. Botham would be a close to a true legend because his first six years were purely legendary stuff.

That's the problem with just looking at numbers without going into any depth. During his first 60 tests Kapil had 250 wickets at around 27. Now if you are stuck with the 25 number without doing any further analysis you are done. But even a cursory examination will tell you that it was a great record once you factor in even a few things like flat pitches, lack of bowling support, lack of big runs to play with away from home, and a superb record against the best team of his time, West Indies. If you look into any depth at Botham numbers you will see they were shallow to an extent. His best performances, except for the '81 Ashes came against sides depleted by Packer. He was a no show with bat and ball against the best team of his times. As a swing bowler he got to bowl a lot in swing friendly conditions of England. Just having arbitrary cut offs serves no purpose.

Kapil lacked sheer pace or the variations most of the above legends had. That is why he did not match their averages and strike rates. As a batsman, averages do not mean every thing, but as a bowler averages are a lot more reliable indicator of match winningness. Are you able to select one sub 25 bowler who was simply not world class? No way!

Before his knee operation he did match the best. He was consistently ranked in the top 10 rankings of ICC throughout his career which take into account factors like strength of opposition, runs scored in matches etc. etc. Before his operation he was in the top 5 for significant amounts of time. All this was while these other bowlers you've classed as legends were also playing the game. Averages can only tell you so much. If he was so much behind these other bowlers why was he ranked so high in what are pretty objective ratings and generally considered to be an accurate barometer? It was because these rankings are based on more parameters than averages.

[putrevus]

The main reason why Kapil Dev never ended up with sub 25 average was his lack of reverse swing in his arsenal. Lack of support from the other end is often cited as one of reasons but more than lack of support, it was his lack of reverse swing especially after his knee surgery when he lost his pace and some of the bite of his outswinger. After first 36 tests in comparison with Imran Khan, Kapil dev had more 5fers and also averaged run lower than Imran Khan.But during that period of 81 to 84 Imran Khan became utterly dominant with advent of reverse swing culminating with his total demolition of India in 82-83 on flattest wickets. Even in that 1982-83 Pakistan he took 24 wickets inspite of home biased umpiring compared to Imran's 40 in five fewer innings. Even in 1984 series against WI he did very well and he was lone wolf again there.

[express bowling]

Kapil was an exceptional pacer for the first 75 tests that he played. Pacewise, he was lively fast-medium. He really deteriorated after that. Kumble was top class too, especially in the sub-continent. But just 2 really good bowlers and 3 decent ones ( Srinath, Zaheer and Bhajji ) in the last 30 years is not good enough.

[vandokkum]

Kumble' date=' Bedi, Chandrasekhar as well. You dont rate spinners because you never had decent spinners in your lineup. Imran Tahir anyone ? :hysterical:[/quote'] Please tell me any of those guys will be near the list of 25 of the best bowlers of all time. They are Indian legends no doubt, but you need to meet certain standards to qualify as a great of the game.

[express bowling]

I Can Show you video Imran khan bowling up to 145kph Average Kapil dev was Yard slower than Ambrose

How can you show video of Imran bowling at 145 k ? Speed guns were not used then ? The only speed contest with a video, that I am aware of shows that Imran could not even touch 140 k. If you have a video from a proper site to prove otherwise, please post link.

[The Outsider]

Please tell me any of those guys will be near the list of 25 of the best bowlers of all time. They are Indian legends no doubt' date=' but you need to meet certain standards to qualify as a great of the game.[/quote'] Kumble and Chandra would come pretty close to the top 25 if not in the top 25 unambiguously.

[vandokkum]

Kumble and Chandra would come pretty close to the top 25 if not in the top 25 unambiguously.

Kumble probably, but there have been so many top bowlers in the game. Sub 25 average and a decent strike rate would be the criteria for seamers. For spinners it would have to go up since Warne and Murali were just one of a kind.

[The Outsider]

Kumble probably' date=' but there have been so many top bowlers in the game. Sub 25 average and a decent strike rate would be the criteria for seamers. [b']For spinners it would have to go up since Warne and Murali were just one of a kind.

That's exactly my point. You can't just have a blanket sub 25 criteria. Warne and Murali (excluding minnows) average 25, so by that criteria even they would struggle to make an all time great list whereas there are many sub 25 fast bowlers ahead of whom I would choose them. Leaving Warne and Murali aside, Chandra and Kumble will be right up there with any great spin bowler since the era of covered wickets. They were not as great as the really great fast bowlers like Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee(they would be fast bowling equivalents of Warne and Murali) but I would rank them alongside Walsh and Pollock for example who fill the sub 25 average criteria.

[express bowling]

Please tell me any of those guys will be near the list of 25 of the best bowlers of all time. They are Indian legends no doubt' date=' but you need to meet certain standards to qualify as a great of the game.[/quote'] Do you even know how many matches Kumble has single-handedly won for India ? How can he not be counted within the top 25 bowlers of all time ? The main thing is winning test matches for your team. Plus the guy had taken more than 600 wickets. And please don't say that he had done so under helpful conditions. You guys are ga ga over Philander and co. bowling well under extremely helpful conditions.