Indian Bowling Selection

[rkt.india]

Also have a look at the seam in that picture. Because of Malinga's wrist being angled from left-to-right the seam comes out 45 degrees angling from left-to-right as well (i.e. the seam is pointing towards fine leg). That's why he gets more pronounced swing in to the right hander. But this is different to reverse swing

No. This is not different to reverse swing. This only happens when ball is old and angle of the seam is the reason why round armr bowlers get more pronounced inswing with the old ball. Ye, you are right that getting reverse swing is all about seam position, but bowling round arm is the best way to get that reverse swing into the batsmen and more pronounced. Ishant nowadays is not getting much reverse like he used get in 2008 and 2009 though still it was not really pronounced, because of his scrambled seam.

[bharat297]

No. This is not different to reverse swing. This only happens when ball is old and angle of the seam is the reason why round armr bowlers get more pronounced inswing with the old ball. Ye, you are right that getting reverse swing is all about seam position, but bowling round arm is the best way to get that reverse swing into the batsmen and more pronounced. Ishant nowadays is not getting much reverse like he used get in 2008 and 2009 though still it was not really pronounced, because of his scrambled seam.

It is different from reverse swing. That is merely going on with the angle. That same bowler couldn't reverse it away from the right hander.

[bharat297]

No. This is not different to reverse swing. This only happens when ball is old and angle of the seam is the reason why round armr bowlers get more pronounced inswing with the old ball. Ye, you are right that getting reverse swing is all about seam position, but bowling round arm is the best way to get that reverse swing into the batsmen and more pronounced. Ishant nowadays is not getting much reverse like he used get in 2008 and 2009 though still it was not really pronounced, because of his scrambled seam.

Ishant never bowled round arm. Your second paragraph proved my point that it's about maintaining a fairly upright seam, not about whether you are round arm in particular. This round-arm Malinga style thing may accentuate any apparent reverse swing for a right-hander but that same bowler won't get it to reverse away from the right hander or into the left-hander unless they maintain an upright seam. That's my ultimate point. Look at Flintoff's delivery to Katich in the 2005 Ashes. A right-arm round arm bowler who keeps the seam at an angle the way Malinga did in that picture won't be able to get that kind of reverse swing, whereas someone who keeps the seam upright will.

[rkt.india]

Ishant never bowled round arm. Yl.

I never said he bowled round arm. He never got pronounced reverse swing. You can get reverse with upright seam to but it will not be very pronounced but subtle. The likes of Waqar, Akhtar, Malinga get more pronounced reverse swing that is why they could change the match with the old ball.

[bharat297]

I never said he bowled round arm. He never got pronounced reverse swing. You can get reverse with upright seam to but it will not be very pronounced but subtle. The likes of Waqar' date=' Akhtar, Malinga get more pronounced reverse swing that is why they could change the match with the old ball.[/quote'] Ok first of all Wasim and Waqar had upright seams but nevertheless, my point is that with the seam angling towards fine leg then you will only get the appearance of "pronounced reverse swing" in one direction ... That's in to the right hander (assuming its a right arm bowler) But that is not actually reverse swing. Reverse swing by definition is when the ball is setup for an outswinger but swings in OR setup for an inswinger and swings out. What you're talking about, what Malinga does is angle the seam to fine leg, which is not the setup for a conventional outswinger. Therefore what he's doing is not actually reverse swing.

[rkt.india]

Ok first of all Wasim and Waqar had upright seams but nevertheless, my point is that with the seam angling towards fine leg then you will only get the appearance of "pronounced reverse swing" in one direction ... That's in to the right hander (assuming its a right arm bowler) But that is not actually reverse swing. Reverse swing by definition is when the ball is setup for an outswinger but swings in OR setup for an inswinger and swings out. What you're talking about, what Malinga does is angle the seam to fine leg, which is not the setup for a conventional outswinger. Therefore what he's doing is not actually reverse swing.

Waqar did not have upright seam. With that action, he cannot have an upright seam. It is not limje had scramble seam. His seam was very stable like Malinga, but it would make an angle which helped him reverse the ball. Only in the later stage of his career he started to use seam to swing the ball when he had lost his pace. Look at this. This kind of seam helps getting more pronounced reverse into the batsman.

[rkt.india]

This is the way to hold the ball while reverse swing and it is not upright.

[bharat297]

Lol you don't get what I'm saying. Angling the ball to fine leg to get it to "reverse" in , the way Malinga does it is not proper reverse swing because that's not the setup for an outswinger. Would a delivery held with the seam pointing to fine leg swing out under conventional swing ? No And that's why it is not reverse swing when that delivery swings in. Reverse swing is where the ball set up as an outswinger comes in and vice versa. Look at Simon Jones to Michael Clarke in the 2005 Ashes. I'm not saying that Malinga won't make the ball come in. Of course he will. But that's due to the seam being angled towards fine leg and not due to reverse swing. I can bowl round arm and angle the seam to fine leg and can get the ball to swing in. But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with reverse swing. I can do that with a brand new ball too

[rkt.india]

Lol you don't get what I'm saying. Angling the ball to fine leg to get it to "reverse" in , the way Malinga does it is not proper reverse swing because that's not the setup for an outswinger. Would a delivery held with the seam pointing to fine leg swing out under conventional swing ? No And that's why it is not reverse swing when that delivery swings in. Reverse swing is where the ball set up as an outswinger comes in and vice versa. Look at Simon Jones to Michael Clarke in the 2005 Ashes. I'm not saying that Malinga won't make the ball come in. Of course he will. But that's due to the seam being angled towards fine leg and not due to reverse swing. I can bowl round arm and angle the seam to fine leg and can get the ball to swing in. But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with reverse swing. I can do that with a brand new ball too

But where is it angled in? Malinga's action and delivery is such that ball should g away from the batsman, not come and that is first thing for an round armish. Look at the above pic of Malinga. Is this angled in? No it is slated to be an outswinger but if shiny side is toward batsman then instead of swing away it will reverse in . The swing with new ball you are talking about is conventional swing. Reverse swing is about shiny and rough side with seam position look at the second picture which I took from Akaash Chopra's site. You can always have a dead straight upright seam and still reverse it but it wont be pronounced. Swing needs certain seam position for both away and in swing and if the ball is old, it goes with shiny side.

[bharat297]

But where is it angled in? Malinga's action and delivery is such that ball should g away from the batsman, not come and that is first thing for an round armish. Look at the above pic of Malinga. Is this angled in? No it is slated to be an outswinger but if shiny side is toward batsman then instead of swing away it will reverse in . The swing with new ball you are talking about is conventional swing. Reverse swing is about shiny and rough side with seam position look at the second picture which I took from Akaash Chopra's site. You can always have a dead straight upright seam and still reverse it but it wont be pronounced. Swing needs certain seam position for both away and in swing and if the ball is old, it goes with shiny side.

In the 2 pictures you showed, the seam is angled towards fine leg and with a round-arm action with the wrist angled towards fine leg anyway you will naturally get the ball to swing in. It is certainly NOT slated to be an outswinger. Look at where the seam is pointing! Thus if you have the shiny side on the right (like the picture on the right of AC's site) and you angle the seam towards fineleg, yes it is going to be more "pronouned" movement in. But that will only be for one direction. That same bowler with that same action if they switched the seam position to the picture on the left of AC's site, then they would not be able to get it to reverse out.

[rkt.india]

In the 2 pictures you showed, the seam is angled towards fine leg and with a round-arm action with the wrist angled towards fine leg anyway you will naturally get the ball to swing in. It is certainly NOT slated to be an outswinger. Look at where the seam is pointing! Thus if you have the shiny side on the right (like the picture on the right of AC's site) and you angle the seam towards fineleg, yes it is going to be more "pronouned" movement in. But that will only be for one direction. That same bowler with that same action if they switched the seam position to the picture on the left of AC's site, then they would not be able to get it to reverse out.

Please tell me how with round arm action you can have wrist and seam towards fine leg. It will mostly be towards first slip like in the picture of Malinga above. In the pic taken from Akaash's site, they have shown how to keep seam and sides of the ball to swing both ways.

[bharat297]

Please tell me how with round arm action you can have wrist and seam towards fine leg. It will mostly be towards first slip like in the picture of Malinga above.

I think you're looking at the picture the wrong way. Look at the picture again. The way the ball is as we are looking at it it is towards first-slip, but we're looking at it from the opposite angle. Look again! Malinga has angled it towards fine leg.

[rkt.india]

I think you're looking at the picture the wrong way. Look at the picture again. The way the ball is as we are looking at it it is towards first-slip, but we're looking at it from the opposite angle. Look again! Malinga has angled it towards fine leg.

No. Malinga never has seam towards fine leg. It is always meant to go away from the batsman. From whichever angle, you see, it is going away. Malinga does not swing the new ball in to the batsman. He always moves the ball away with new ball and this is that away swinger from Malinga.

[bharat297]

No. Malinga never has seam towards fine leg. It is always meant to go away from the batsman. From whichever angle, you see, it is going away. Malinga does not swing the new ball in to the batsman. He always moves the ball away with new ball and this is that away swinger from Malinga.

Even with that angle you wouldn't be able to get an outswinger with that unless you kept your wrist upright because to get the outswinger you have to bring the wrist down from left to right on release. If you maintain that seam position and simply run your fingers down the seam as a standard delivery it will move in.

[bharat297]

I have a feeling that fundamentally we are arguing the same thing. My point is it comes down to the wrist position at the point of delivery. And that is independent of whether it's a round-arm action or a straight-arm action. You say round-arm bowlers get more pronounced reverse swing. I am saying the bowlers that you mentioned e.g. Waqar, had the wrist position cocked upright (even if the seam was slightly angled). The wrist position is the key.

[Texan]

* Bhuvaneshwar Kumar - our best paceman in the current squad (sad isn't it) * Ravichandran Ashwin - do I need to say why? * Pragyan Ojha - a genuine turner of the ball and will be much more effective than Bhajji * Ashok Dinda - we can't keep relying on spin especially as Australia are going to improve against spin, so we need the option of reverse swing and currently Dinda seems a better bet than Ishant (again sad isn't it). It's also expected to be a dry flat pitch with spin coming into it more so by Day 3, so without 2 pacemen our attack will be too one-dimensional on Days 1 and 2. * Ravindra Jadeja - The defensive spinner that can hold down one end while Ojha/Ashwin take turns attacking at the other end. Given it's a flat pitch, we can probably risk his batting again.

Mostly agree with this considering the squad selected. If we can think outside this squad, I would have: Pankaj Singh instead of Ishant Amit Mishra instead of Harbhajan

[bharat297]

Mostly agree with this considering the squad selected. If we can think outside this squad, I would have: Pankaj Singh instead of Ishant Amit Mishra instead of Harbhajan

Agree with you on Pankaj. I would prefer Ojha over Mishra because of Ojha's greater control.

[Old guy]

@bharat even i dont get how being round arm will change anything.. round arm helps out swing so naturally reverse will be big inswing.. there is no change in angle .

[rkt.india]

Even with that angle you wouldn't be able to get an outswinger with that unless you kept your wrist upright because to get the outswinger you have to bring the wrist down from left to right on release. If you maintain that seam position and simply run your fingers down the seam as a standard delivery it will move in.

But that is wondering because whenever conditions favor him a bit, he gets that outswinger going.

[rkt.india]

@bharat even i dont get how being round arm will change anything.. round arm helps out swing so naturally reverse will be big inswing.. there is no change in angle .

It is about shiny and rough side. Round helps because you need deception and for a round arm bowler because of the position of the shiny side of the ball, it dips late and more pronounced that beats the bat at the last time.