ShanS Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Brahmos is a technology demonstrator?? wow...:cantstop:
Muloghonto Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Brahmos is a technology demonstrator?? wow...:cantstop: Well, what do you call military hardware that has never seen actual combat ? The BRAHMOS is, on paper, a much superior anti-ship missile than the Exocet. But how many confirmed kills does the Exocet have and how many does the BRAHMOS have ?
surajmal Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Well, what do you call military hardware that has never seen actual combat ? The BRAHMOS is, on paper, a much superior anti-ship missile than the Exocet. But how many confirmed kills does the Exocet have and how many does the BRAHMOS have ? by that logic mig 21s > f22s?
surajmal Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 China has enough SSBNs to win supremacy over the Bay of Bengal if they want to, all the way from Hainan province base. If China has such a decisive edge over India that they can just waltz into its waters unchallenged, they wouldn't be looking for alternate trade routes such as karakoram. And Indian Navy would have made a major brouhaha over China "acquiring" port access in Sri lanka, BD etc. Also Hainan would be sitting duck if, India decides to sell Vietnam Shourya and Brahmos. And please take a look at the map again. There are a couple of obvious choke points that you are overlooking.
G_B_ Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 surajmal just ignore him i stopped replying after some of his claims. The bottomline is that Brahmos is a mach 3 cruise missile which hugs the sea. The issue is not if its detected, the issue is what you are going to do once you detect it. Its just too fast for any ballistic missile defense system. The US tomahawk missile etc is below mach 1. India has about 450-500 missiles of Brahmos among its army, airforce and ships and its being produced since 2004. Brhamos 2 of 700km is in production. My colleges in the defense sector in the UK recognize what a super missile it is. I dont need validation from some nobody. But the jist is just ignore SachinLara. The main knows jack. We should start an Indian defense sector thread.
surajmal Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Using defence journos like Jane's as primary sources is ridiculous. Ignorant Indian reporters have been using that magazine to torpedo Indigenous programs like LCA for the last 2 decades.
G_B_ Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Using defence journos like Jane's as primary sources is ridiculous. Ignorant Indian reporters have been using that magazine to torpedo Indigenous programs like LCA for the last 2 decades. The biggest problem with Jane, is that it is more of a summery magazine which specializes in Anglo countries defense. The reporting outside these countries is abysmal at best. A french colleague/acquaintance of mine is always up in arms when anybody talks about Jane. I dont think you can blame Indian journos. They write at a level which the general public can understand. Its the same in the UK, sometimes I feel like weeping when i read the articles. There is so much wrong with them. Every time they have this "ex general" making some claims. You know just know the newspaper has paid him of.
surajmal Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 The bottomline is that Brahmos is a mach 3 cruise missile which hugs the sea. The issue is not if its detected, the issue is what you are going to do once you detect it. Its just too fast for any ballistic missile defense system. The US tomahawk missile etc is below mach 1. India has about 450-500 missiles of Brahmos among its army, airforce and ships and its being produced since 2004. Brhamos 2 of 700km is in production. My colleges in the defense sector in the UK recognize what a super missile it is. I dont need validation from some nobody. The stated range is ~300 km but the actually is more like 500 km if one can pickup the subtle hints from AS Pillai's interviews. And brahmos isn't virtually "unbeatable" just because of its speed but also due to all the maneuvres it can perform prior to impact. And Nirbhay (loitering missile with ~1000 km range) will be tested anytime now.
ShanS Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Well, what do you call military hardware that has never seen actual combat ? The BRAHMOS is, on paper, a much superior anti-ship missile than the Exocet. But how many confirmed kills does the Exocet have and how many does the BRAHMOS have ? By that logic, Chinese, as well as most other ICBMs are tech demonstrators since they have no confirmed kills. Most of the chinese subs are tech demonstratirs since they have no confirmed kills. There is a reason why India is buying P8Is. Brahmos isn't your ordinary AShCM. It's a Mach 3-5 sea skimming cruise missile. Even if it's detected, it'll be hard for any CIWS to intercept it. It has terminal manouevers to make things even more complicated. There is also an upgraded Brahmos in works whose speed will be Mach 7+. Regarding range, it is 300KM due to MTCR restrictions. There was a news report where a DRDO scientist mentioned that the range is 'software restricted'.
G_B_ Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 The stated range is ~300 km but the actually is more like 500 km if one can pickup the subtle hints from AS Pillai's interviews. And brahmos isn't virtually "unbeatable" just because of its speed but also due to all the maneuvres it can perform prior to impact. And Nirbhay (loitering missile with ~1000 km range) will be tested anytime now. the 500 range i do believe it from the air. via the ships and land its 300 (i think at the top of my head). No idea about submarines. I dont think India will go with nirbhay. From what i know they can concentrating on a Brahmos 2 and then eventually a Brahmos 3. Nirbhay is more of a back up/technology demonstrator. We have to keep in mind that the P-700 Granit missile from which the Brahmos is derived has a much larger range and the only reason Brahmos does not have it is due to missile technology transfer treaties which Russia has signed with regards to range. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-700_Granit I am confident Brahmos 3 will be a 1000km range mach 4 cruise missile operable from ships, submarines, tetra trucks and rail.
G_B_ Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 btw you want to start a Indian Defence Updates thread surajmal? would love to discuss aspects of Indian defense with you.
Muloghonto Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 by that logic mig 21s > f22s? i wouldn't go that far, but yes, i would rate F-16s as a more reliable and proven instrument than F-22. Nomatter how good your technology is, there is always an element of uncertainty towards its preformance until it actually succeeds in real war scenario.
Muloghonto Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Using defence journos like Jane's as primary sources is ridiculous. Ignorant Indian reporters have been using that magazine to torpedo Indigenous programs like LCA for the last 2 decades. Nonsense. LCA ran into lack of engine expertese in India once America slapped on sanctions on us for exploding a nuke. It wasn't until a couple of years ago that India mastered the technology of single crystal metal casting needed for high performance turbine blades.
Muloghonto Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 surajmal just ignore him i stopped replying after some of his claims. The bottomline is that Brahmos is a mach 3 cruise missile which hugs the sea. The issue is not if its detected, the issue is what you are going to do once you detect it. Its just too fast for any ballistic missile defense system. The US tomahawk missile etc is below mach 1. The AEGIS system is not designed to counter a ballistic missile, it is specifically pertaining towards neutralizing cruise missiles. Neither is the AEGIS system a ballistic 'counter-missile' system. I realize that the Brahmos is an awesome weapon on paper, which is why i said all the USN is going to have to do, is not get to within 300 kms of the coast and they will still rule the sea and the air. So all it means, is that in a scenario of war, the USN carrier group is not loitering around Chennai, sending their bombers to blow up Nagpur, they are loitering on the other side of Sri Lanka and blowing up Hyderabad. Whopee. We've kept the lean,mean killing machine 300 kms away, instead of being parked right on our shore. It means nothing, because we will still be utterly owned from 300 kms out anyways. India has about 450-500 missiles of Brahmos among its army, airforce and ships and its being produced since 2004. Brhamos 2 of 700km is in production. My colleges in the defense sector in the UK recognize what a super missile it is. I dont need validation from some nobody. Namecalling on the internet is a self defeating purpose. You are just as much a 'nobody' here as anyone else, unless you are willing to back up your claims by posting your actual CV and contact info here. Namedropping means nothing here, i thought you'd have known this by now. But the jist is just ignore SachinLara. The main knows jack. We should start an Indian defense sector thread. Find me a senior level military commander (colonel and above) who does not value a proven technology over a 'mucho better on paper but never seen combat action' technology. There is a bloody good reason why we extended the lifetime of our MiG-21s, why the US is still upgrading their F-16s and why F-16s are still outselling the Eurofighter & Rafale. Its because F-16s are combat proven. Eurofighter and Rafale are not and it does matter.
Muloghonto Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 If China has such a decisive edge over India that they can just waltz into its waters unchallenged' date=' they wouldn't be looking for alternate trade routes such as karakoram. [/quote'] Its called building a 'failsafe'. Nomatter how much better you are than your antagonist, it is still prudent to have 'route B' in place if major route A does get jammed up due to whatever reasons. They did make a major brouhaha with China starting a naval facility in Burma and their Gwadar lease but it got them nowhere, so they know where the score is if they made a brouhaha about their SL base. 1. that is contingent on what Vietnam does, not a direct threat from us to China. 2. SSBNs are nuclear powered submarines, which can sit off the coast of Chennai for well over six months before it has to go to port for food and water. Choke points and range are not a matter for SSBNs. The entire idea of SSBN is to have global outreach. Given that China has over 20 of them already, i'd rate Chinese navy's ability higher than Indian navy's at this point.
Muloghonto Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 By that logic' date=' Chinese, as well as most other ICBMs are tech demonstrators since they have no confirmed kills. Most of the chinese subs are tech demonstratirs since they have no confirmed kills. [/quote'] Indeed. Until they actually see combat, we don't know what their capabilities are and how well built they are. Arre baba, the point is, BRAHMOS is not super-long range and therefore, the USN squadrons simply have to create enough 'buffer space' between them and land to render the BRAHMOS largely useless. Remember, the USN air arm has a combat range of over 1500 kms, so they can stay out of BRAHMOS's range and still do damage. Plus, look at it this way- until you try out a system in actual war scenario, don't get too cocky about its abilities. Israel/US found this out the hard way with their patriot missile system in the first gulf war: everyone thought that Israel is 'safe as a bunker' from Saddam's scuds, because Patriot missile shield would protect them. Turns out that Patriot system was far crappier than they anticipated but luckily enough, the scuds were also far worse than they predicted, so nothing major really happened to Israel despite the total failure of the Patriot to live up to its name and billing. This is the inherent risk that all non-proven hardware carries and this is the reason why even the best militaries still keep the 'old clunky stuff from 20 years ago' in their inventory: because the old clunky stuff is proven in battle and in a pinch, they know what these old stuff is going to do and cannot do. The new stuff, until it proves itself, is simply a paper tiger- for all you know, your every 1 out of 3 Brahmos are duds due to corrupt desi babus siphoning money from supply acquisition. That has happened too in the past not just in India but also for western militaries, sometimes with disastrous consequences. My point is simple- having interacted with defence personnel in professional and personal capacity, i am yet to meet a high level commander who would happily trade away his old proven clunkers completely for the new unproven tech. They always keep some of the old stuff around because combat proven is the ultimate reliability tag in military.
surajmal Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 btw you want to start a Indian Defence Updates thread surajmal? would love to discuss aspects of Indian defense with you. Wouldn't mind that. We are about to enter the golden period of Indian defense development, so there will be plenty to discuss.
G_B_ Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Wouldn't mind that. We are about to enter the golden period of Indian defense development' date=' so there will be plenty to discuss.[/quote'] i have created one. will be posting some interesting stuff there
punjabi_khota Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Wouldn't mind that. We are about to enter the golden period of Indian defense development' date= so there will be plenty to discuss. What are major milestones etc. coming up ?
surajmal Posted March 9, 2013 Posted March 9, 2013 What are major milestones etc. coming up ? From the top of my head: LCA : I don't want to jinx it but the induction is set for end of the year. Induction of Weaponised Dhruv helicopter has begun. Induction of the light combat helicopter is slated for 2014. LCA navy development is also back on track now that they have redesigned the landing gear (at current pace LCA navy and the domestic carrier will inducted around the same time 2016-2017). UAV/UCAVs will also see major developments in the coming years. Rustom-H (similar to predator) will see first flight early next year. AEWC/AWACS development is also hitting stride with the testing of the EMB 145 based platform beginning later this year. Missile development has reached a critical mass IMO (except for the cutting edge stuff like Brahmos 2 which is a completely new missile). Now its just a matter of mix and match. Nirbhay cruise missile is next. Then further validation tests of A-5, then A-6 (which is supposed to MIRVed). With the success of K-15, first test of K-4 should happen in couple of years as well. Multi Layered Ballistic missile defense development is also moving along (projected to be completed by 2016). Problem right now is that no one is going to mistake Arihant for Ohio Class. First step towards bigger nuke subs is obviously a bigger Power Gen. module. Arihant accommodates a 80 MW reactor but a ~200 MW will be needed for Arihant's successor. Arihant testing has begun, so in the next couple of years, you will probably hear some news regarding nuclear reactor developments. Also Gas turbine program is still the biggest question mark (and perhaps the most critical) but now that Kaveri engine development has been decoupled from LCA, this area has the greatest scope. So far kaveri engine has managed to produce ~65 kN 9 (wet) (far cry from the 98 kN that F414 produces but still something to build on). Hopefully GTRE and Snecma joint venture will yield similar results to the Brahmos. India is a couple of decades behind the west so I wouldn't exactly call it champagne time but from where they started in the late 80s/early 90s, they have come a long way inspite of the typical PSU culture and imposed sanctions.
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