VHP will declare Gujarat a Hindu state by 2015: Pravin Togadia

[The Outsider]

How does a minority have any special rights because of the judgment? Can a minority applicant demand that he/she be given extra benefit. Secondly, the judgment does not rule out favoring any race (including white) if there is such a need.

Okay "rights" might not have been the appropriate word, but it's clear that the process is not "race blind". In almost all cases it favors the minorities - look at the practical implementation of it. How many situations can you think of when there has been a need to favor the whites over the minorities?

I was arguing that such an imposition does not violate the fundamental rights as enshrined in the Constitution. My point was that if drawing pictures of Mohammad is banned then by that same logic cow slaughter could also be banned. The Indian state does not have enough resources to ensure law and order if absolute freedoms are allowed, and thus it is justified to curb individual freedoms in many cases - like laws on blasphemy, protection of SC/STs, banning beef, pork, alcohol etc, banning dowry, banning sex selective abortions/fertilizations etc. Most of these laws would be unconstitutional in USA but are required in India due to a huge difference in resources.

Which is fine, but is in contradiction to your view that no special rights should be accorded based on religion.

[seedhi]

Okay "rights" might not have been the appropriate word' date=' but it's clear that the process is not "race blind". In almost all cases it favors the minorities - look at the practical implementation of it. How many situations can you think of when there has been a need to favor the whites over the minorities?[/quote']I am actually in favor of affirmative action at the educational level. My limited point was that it is not a legal right in US law. In India we have that as a legal right as far as reservation is concerned which is also fine with me in principle as long as it is not on basis of religion in such a manner that it induces people to convert to avail of benefits. Banning cow slaughter is not a special right. It is uniform - no one of any religion is allowed to do it. Similarly, no one of any religion can draw Mohammad cartoons. On the other hand if the state says that a Muslim can marry four wives while Hindus can marry one, then a Hindu is induced to convert to Islam to marry a second wife - a situation we have witnessed several times. There was a recent case when a court ruled that a Muslim man can marry an underage (14 yrs) girl according to islamic ceremony but a Hindu man cannot marry an underage girl according to Hindu ceremony because of differences personal laws. The recent Right to Education laws are not applicable to minority schools, so you will have a situation where DPS RK Puram will have to reserve seats for underprivileged students but not St. Columbas school in Delhi. These are distortions that are actually detrimental to society.

[Sachin=GOD]

@Bye Bye Madraasis :rofl:

[Raghav_12]

@Bye Bye Madraasis :rofl:

:hysterical::hysterical:

[The Outsider]

Banning cow slaughter is not a special right. It is uniform - no one of any religion is allowed to do it. Similarly, no one of any religion can draw Mohammad cartoons. On the other hand if the state says that a Muslim can marry four wives while Hindus can marry one, then a Hindu is induced to convert to Islam to marry a second wife - a situation we have witnessed several times. There was a recent case when a court ruled that a Muslim man can marry an underage (14 yrs) girl according to islamic ceremony but a Hindu man cannot marry an underage girl according to Hindu ceremony because of differences personal laws. The recent Right to Education laws are not applicable to minority schools, so you will have a situation where DPS RK Puram will have to reserve seats for underprivileged students but not St. Columbas school in Delhi. These are distortions that are actually detrimental to society.

That no one is allowed to slaughter cows or draw Muhammad cartoons does not mean that these laws do not have a religious basis to them. The more than one wife thing is such a stupid example. Firstly, how many such cases happen in a population of 1.2 billion for it to be a problem of any significance. Secondly, restriction on the number of wives puts no restriction on the number of mistresses one can have which can provides the same situation without a legal stamp. Thirdly, there are instances of people marrying more than once even without converting like Dharmendra, though the second marriage does not have a legal standing.

[CSK Fan]

Yes and this is what the "affirmative action" law says: (Executive Order 11246) It is a law that promotes NON-DISCRIMINATION.

Actually it promotes non-discrimination by actively encouraging the employement of minorities. Plus there are many minority owned businesses (whether women owned, or african american owned or Native Indian owned or owned by disabled people) which get special preferences in goverment bid orders from companies. In fact, all companies have to declare whether they are one of these while bidding

[seedhi]

That no one is allowed to slaughter cows or draw Muhammad cartoons does not mean that these laws do not have a religious basis to them. The more than one wife thing is such a stupid example. Firstly, how many such cases happen in a population of 1.2 billion for it to be a problem of any significance. Secondly, restriction on the number of wives puts no restriction on the number of mistresses one can have which can provides the same situation without a legal stamp. Thirdly, there are instances of people marrying more than once even without converting like Dharmendra, though the second marriage does not have a legal standing.

There have been several cases of people converting to marry the second time - I remember the cases of a Haryana minister, and I think Dharmendra also converted to get married. In any case, this about the principle behind religion based personal laws which I dont agree with. They will always lead to such distortions. The big pandora's box is this RTE which will apply only to non-minority run educational institutions. All because of religion based laws.

[seedhi]

Actually it promotes non-discrimination by actively encouraging the employement of minorities. Plus there are many minority owned businesses (whether women owned' date=' or african american owned or Native Indian owned or owned by disabled people) which get special preferences in goverment bid orders from companies. In fact, all companies have to declare whether they are one of these while bidding[/quote']I am in favor as long as it is not on the basis of religion, which one can change to avail of benefits. As I said these are policies in the USA, not legal rights, and are in a constant state of flux. In India we have completely distorted our systems by bestowing legal rights and different laws based on religion.

[Dumbbells]

No Muslim majority country is a secular country in the world. Dispute this argument if u can. Don't show me BD. Its an young country which is gonna be a Islamic state very soon.

[someone]

No Muslim majority country is a secular country in the world. Dispute this argument if u can. Don't show me BD. Its an young country which is gonna be a Islamic state very soon.

That's correct. Although, I would add how many Muslims are secular. Whichever country has over 5% of them, they have created problems for the country.

[Muloghonto]

No Muslim majority country is a secular country in the world. Dispute this argument if u can. Don't show me BD. Its an young country which is gonna be a Islamic state very soon.

Turkey. The only secular nation that has a majority Islamic adherence. Though the rate at which its going (keepnig on electing an Islamist party), it wont stay secular for very long.

[Dumbbells]

Turkey. The only secular nation that has a majority Islamic adherence. Though the rate at which its going (keepnig on electing an Islamist party)' date=' it wont stay secular for very long.[/quote'] If thats d case, y do people oppose when hindus promote their religion? that too Hindus. Dats becoz hindus are mostly non religious people. Aren't we? North indians are bit religious. But most of of the south Indians I have met are mostly non religious people. They don't have much to say against Islam. South Indians are easy to convert. Most of the conversions take place in South India. South Indians are converted to Christianity bit easily by missionaries. Same missionaries find it hard to convert people in North India. Dats becoz Northies have suffered so much on the hands of Islamic rule in the past. The India-Pak partition has left deep scars in the minds of North Indian people. Just take an example in this thread itself. People who are supporting Modi are mostly North indians and those who opposing him are from south. Lets the intellectuals dispute this. I will wait. Take my caste for example. I am from Bundela rajput caste. My dad would tell me stories that how my ancestors resisted Islamic aggression in Bundelkhand. My grandma used to tell me stories of Jhansi rani lakshmi bai when I was a kid. These sort of stories left a deep anger and a proud feeling. Yes, at times I feel that I should leave this country looking at the incidents happens in our country. But, I cannot take away my heart from this country. The only reason why Hindu population still keeps up the pace with Islam is becoz of our culture. Becoz of arranged marriages. If we lose our identity and culture, Hinduism would decline and Islam would occupy Hindustan. Remember, India would remain secular till hindus are majority in this country. Why a hindu majority country would remain secular? read first para....

[Muloghonto]

If thats d case, y do people oppose when hindus promote their religion? that too Hindus. Dats becoz hindus are mostly non religious people. Aren't we? North indians are bit religious. But most of of the south Indians I have met are mostly non religious people. They don't have much to say against Islam. South Indians are easy to convert. Most of the conversions take place in South India. South Indians are converted to Christians bit easily by missionaries. Same missionaries find it hard to convert people to Christianity in North India. Dats becoz Northies have suffered so much on the hands of Islamic rule in the past. The India-Pak partition has left deep scars in the minds of North Indian people. Just take an example in this thread itself. People who are supporting Modi are mostly North indians and those who opposing him are from south. Lets the intellectuals dispute this. I will wait. Take my caste for example. I am from Bundela rajput caste. My dad would tell me stories that how my ancestors resisted Islamic aggression in Bundelkhand. My grandma used to tell me stories of Jhansi rani lakshmi bai when I was a kid. These sort of stories left a deep anger and a proud feeling. Yes, at times I feel that I should leave this country looking at the incidents happens in our country. But, I cannot take away my heart from this country. The only reason why Hindu population still keeps up the pace with Islam is becoz of our culture. Becoz of arranged marriages. If we lose our identity and culture, Hinduism would decline and Islam would occupy Hindustan. Remember, India would remain secular till hindus are majority in this country. Why a hindu majority country would remain secular? read first para....

India wont be safe till Islam is destroyed. Which IMO, you will start seeing in our lifetimes. The reason Christianity got reformed is because due to the printing press, people were able to emmanate ideas & individual freedom of thought in a mass scale. The internet will do that for Islam and IMO, this is the day and age where the largest number of muslims are abandoning Islam due to the logical failures of Islam and its brutal track record being exposed, mostly via the internet. Eventually, this too will lead to a critical mass, inshallah and Islam would be brought to heel.

[Dumbbells]

India wont be safe till Islam is destroyed. Which IMO, you will start seeing in our lifetimes. The reason Christianity got reformed is because due to the printing press, people were able to emmanate ideas & individual freedom of thought in a mass scale. The internet will do that for Islam and IMO, this is the day and age where the largest number of muslims are abandoning Islam due to the logical failures of Islam and its brutal track record being exposed, mostly via the internet. Eventually, this too will lead to a critical mass, inshallah and Islam would be brought to heel.

No way Islam is going down bro. It will continue to raise. Education and the exposure to Internet is nothing to do with secularism. Islam isn't a bad religion if they are bit secular like Hindus. If they can treat other religious people like human beings, they can win many hearts and attract people like me. But they continue to trouble others. They even kill their people for being sunni, shia etc. It makes my heart cry out so loud, why should people continue to kill in the name of religion god in this world? P.S- Mods are not gonna be happy with ur post dude.

[ganeshran]

Religion is not going anywhere. Much of it is spread by indoctrination and brainwashing at a much earlier age than when a person is exposed to opposing viewpoints from his peers or on the internet. Once the idea of a supreme being is formed in an innocent mind who is convinced about going to hell if God is displeased, it takes years of open and free discussion to wean him/her from the idea of a supernatural entity. And such an environment is not available in most countries except few places in the west (USA mainly which ironically is also quite religious). In most other places, religion is accorded a preeminent position where its fundamental followers automatically assume the right to be offended and hold the state to ransom. Unfortunately civil society provides it to them. If religion has to rendered irrelevant, the indoctrination has to be stopped, inter religious marriages should be encouraged and children must interact with people from other countries and cultures.

[Muloghonto]

No way Islam is going down bro. It will continue to raise. Education and the exposure to Internet is nothing to do with secularism. Islam isn't a bad religion if they are bit secular like Hindus. If they can treat other religious people like human beings, they can win many hearts and attract people like me. But they continue to trouble others. They even kill their people for being sunni, shia etc. It makes my heart cry out so loud, why should people continue to kill in the name of religion god in this world? P.S- Mods are not gonna be happy with ur post dude.

I think Islam is going to go down in the same way Christianity went down- it wont disappear, but its power over politics will be broken on the same basis that Christianity's power was broken- that you (by you, i dont mean you personally, i mean anyone) the Mullah/pope/Caliph/imam cannot claim a singular path to legal primacy, since i am free to interpret the book as i see fit. This is something that the printing press enabled in Europe. Since the Arab world was neither very literate or educated till the very modern times, printing presses and the sheer volume of literature required to germinate these counters to despotic absolutism of faith based governments were missing. This is the void that Internt is filling in IMO and as i said, these changes will take generations to manifest into significant levels but will manifest IMO. Already, we are in an era where the largest numbers of muslims are walking away from Islam. Its not that rare to find muslims in USA/Canada, particularly African muslims & Indo-African muslims (we have a big Ismaili community here, who are basically 4th/5th generation Gujju muslims who came here once Idi Amin went crazy in Uganda) who have grown children that do not follow Islam, do not even read the Koran or have actively walked out of Islam and their parents are mostly okay with it. This, IMO, is a small but significant development that should be encouraged. PS: Mods can go stuff themselves if they dont like what i say. Or abuse their power. Either way, i dont care.

[Crookbond]

Religion is not going anywhere. Much of it is spread by indoctrination and brainwashing at a much earlier age than when a person is exposed to opposing viewpoints from his peers or on the internet. Once the idea of a supreme being is formed in an innocent mind who is convinced about going to hell if God is displeased, it takes years of open and free discussion to wean him/her from the idea of a supernatural entity. And such an environment is not available in most countries except few places in the west (USA mainly which ironically is also quite religious). In most other places, religion is accorded a preeminent position where its fundamental followers automatically assume the right to be offended and hold the state to ransom. Unfortunately civil society provides it to them. If religion has to rendered irrelevant, the indoctrination has to be stopped, inter religious marriages should be encouraged and children must interact with people from other countries and cultures.

Inter-caste marriages in the same religion would be a good start.

[ganeshran]

Inter-caste marriages in the same religion would be a good start.

Intercaste marriages have a lot of social benefits but fostering religious tolerance isnt one of them

[Stuge]

Intercaste marriages have a lot of social benefits but fostering religious tolerance isnt one of them

What's wrong in teaching religious tolerance ? regarding topic .. I've BIG :facepalm: for it .

[CG]

Proper Education and Economic upliftment of all religions is the only way forward.