India's bowling attack for tests: ZAK,Shami and ...

[express bowling]

I will stick with Bhuvi in Test....He has bowled very good with red ball. Dont take ODI performace for Test matches.

How ? Bhuvi has taken 9 wickets in 6 tests @ 1.5 wickets per test. Average of 37.9, Strike rate of 69. He has looked decent only for about 4/5 overs with the new red ball. He is a bowler who looks dangerous only when the ball is swinging a lot. Compare that with his ODI performance. 30 wickets from 26 matches @ 1.15 wickets per match, average 32.5 and economy 4.6. Nothing great as far as wicket taking ability goes but very economical atleast although it might have something to do with him rarely bowling at the death. Overall, he has looked a far better ODI bowler than a test bowler.

[rajmarie]

How ? Bhuvi has taken 9 wickets in 6 tests @ 1.5 wickets per test. Average of 37.9, Strike rate of 69. He has looked decent only for about 4/5 overs with the new red ball. He is a bowler who looks dangerous only when the ball is swinging a lot. Compare that with his ODI performance. 30 wickets from 26 matches @ 1.15 wickets per match, average 32.5 and economy 4.6. Nothing great as far as wicket taking ability goes but very economical atleast although it might have something to do with him rarely bowling at the death. Overall, he has looked a far better ODI bowler than a test bowler.

But Bhuvi have only played all those matches in India. He deserve a chance to have a go in these conditions. I dont think Yadav/Ishant with their so called pace but no brain bowling will hurt & cause any damage to SA batsman. Bhuvi deserve a longer stink...specially when the conditions will be more helpfull to his bowling. He can undone SA batsman in Test matches...& get us those early breakthrough

[Silva]

Bhuvi is 8 for 190 or something in the first 15 overs of a test innings. His role has been to take wickets with the new ball and set things up for the spinners and hes done that. In theory he should have similar success in South africa because south african pitches aid his seam bowling a lot better. Bhuvi is basically just a new ball specailist. Not only because his lack of pace but because he really isn't that accurate. but still a new ball specialist can be valuable (obviously more than 1 becomes a serious liability as dhoni just found out. ) IMO if the test match are on a pitches like these we need to go with ashwin + 4 pace bowlers. If its on a dryer surface then replace yadav for jadeja simply because bhuvi can bat. one extra specialist batsman won't matter if our bowlers are giving up 400+ runs on these type of pitches.

[cowboysfan]

i think after zak its bhuvi who is a thinker and i back him to work out the length he has to bowl here,these pitches must be quiet alien to him.th purpose of playing a spinner is mostly containment in tests here and right now ashwin looks extremely hittable.

[gaurav92]

We need 5 bowlers. Bhuvi, Shami, Zak and Yadav. Jaddu can be our spinner. But the team management will stick to their 3+2 combination. Ashwin and Jaddu, Zak Bhuvi and Shami

[div]

Bhuvi is 8 for 190 or something in the first 15 overs of a test innings. His role has been to take wickets with the new ball and set things up for the spinners and hes done that. In theory he should have similar success in South africa because south african pitches aid his seam bowling a lot better. Bhuvi is basically just a new ball specailist. Not only because his lack of pace but because he really isn't that accurate. but still a new ball specialist can be valuable (obviously more than 1 becomes a serious liability as dhoni just found out. ) IMO if the test match are on a pitches like these we need to go with ashwin + 4 pace bowlers. If its on a dryer surface then replace yadav for jadeja simply because bhuvi can bat. one extra specialist batsman won't matter if our bowlers are giving up 400+ runs on these type of pitches.

Reality is totally different..Warne,Murali etc have poor record in India.. South Africa has strong batting line up ,it is better to play Umesh Yadav.

[express bowling]

But Bhuvi have only played all those matches in India. He deserve a chance to have a go in these conditions. I dont think Yadav/Ishant with their so called pace but no brain bowling will hurt & cause any damage to SA batsman. Bhuvi deserve a longer stink...specially when the conditions will be more helpfull to his bowling. He can undone SA batsman in Test matches...& get us those early breakthrough

Yadav and Ishant are not similar test bowlers. Yadav is a genuine wicket taker with a strike rate of 46. Ishant cannot take wickets in tests. Bhuvi is an unknown element even if you are talking about overseas tests. I would prefer a known wicket taking fast bowler over someone of doubtful wicket taking ability in tests. In subcontinent tests, the spinners do most of the bowling with the older ball. In SAF, Bhuvi will not have the luxury to bowl with the new ball only. And SAF is not England where the old ball swings a lot all day.

[express bowling]

Bhuvi is 8 for 190 or something in the first 15 overs of a test innings. His role has been to take wickets with the new ball and set things up for the spinners and hes done that. In theory he should have similar success in South africa because south african pitches aid his seam bowling a lot better. Bhuvi is basically just a new ball specailist. Not only because his lack of pace but because he really isn't that accurate. but still a new ball specialist can be valuable (obviously more than 1 becomes a serious liability as dhoni just found out. ) IMO if the test match are on a pitches like these we need to go with ashwin + 4 pace bowlers. If its on a dryer surface then replace yadav for jadeja simply because bhuvi can bat. one extra specialist batsman won't matter if our bowlers are giving up 400+ runs on these type of pitches.

He has taken 9 wickets in 11 test innings. That means maybe 16 to 22 new balls. 9 wickets with say 18 new balls used means 1/2 wicket per new ball used. I would say he has not taken enough wickets even with the new ball.

[Forever Indian]

He has taken 9 wickets in 11 test innings. That means maybe 16 to 22 new balls. 9 wickets with say 18 new balls used means 1/2 wicket per new ball used. I would say he has not taken enough wickets even with the new ball.

If you are putting stats, pls make sure you put all the right stats in and set the right context. 1) Bhuvi played only the Aus and WI series which is in India, and there were hardly any 2nd new balls taken as our spinners mopped up the wickets before that, so its no more than 11 innings with new ball and that too in Indian dust bowls. 2) Bhuvi was bowled 624 balls in those 11 innings which is roughly 9.5 overs per innings (even less than an ODI quota). 3) Also in those matches when he was given an extended opening spell he managed to pick 3 wickets two times. The rest of the wickets were all mostly taken by spinners. 4) Shami had a freak Kolkata match where it reverse swung for him, I admit Bhuvi is not the strongest exponent of reverse swing but in 2nd WI match Bhuvi and Shami were equally of limited effectiveness. So it is not that Bhuvi has been as bad as all are portraying, but he defenitely has scope for improvement. He is right now behind Shami and possibly an in-form Yadav in the pecking order. Only when he and Shami play both overseas for a couple of tours and in India can we form an opinion.

[Old guy]

If you are putting stats, pls make sure you put all the right stats in and set the right context. 1) Bhuvi played only the Aus and WI series which is in India, and there were hardly any 2nd new balls taken as our spinners mopped up the wickets before that, so its no more than 11 innings with new ball and that too in Indian dust bowls. 2) Bhuvi was bowled 624 balls in those 11 innings which is roughly 9.5 overs per innings (even less than an ODI quota). 3) Also in those matches when he was given an extended opening spell he managed to pick 3 wickets two times. The rest of the wickets were all mostly taken by spinners. 4) Shami had a freak Kolkata match where it reverse swung for him, I admit Bhuvi is not the strongest exponent of reverse swing but in 2nd WI match Bhuvi and Shami were equally of limited effectiveness. So it is not that Bhuvi has been as bad as all are portraying, but he defenitely has scope for improvement. He is right now behind Shami and possibly an in-form Yadav in the pecking order. Only when he and Shami play both overseas for a couple of tours and in India can we form an opinion.

let me give you another stat guess the number of wickets bhuvi has in test matches after 15 overs ? (he has bowled plenty of overs around 40 ) answer is ...

0

[ExpressPace]

India need to bring back Zak asap so these new trundlers can improve a little under him. I dont understand how can you not pick him when he is itching to play.

[Old guy]

i think problem is with fans not understanding this simple thing and setting bar too low in india and too high in south africa. just because some one is coming to bowl in south africa does not means he will magically start picking tons of wickets.. it does not works like that..maybe steyn and philander have made it look like that but they are very highly skilled and extract lot of movement from tracks where juniad khan who swung so much in india did nothing in south africa.. just because they can pick wickets at average of 15 does not means bhuvi too will do magically he is still the same limited bowler and before this series started i had argument with some of his fans that how unfair comparison with philander was and that we are hyping these guys way too much. want to make one thing clear.. i think both umesh yadav and bhuvan should bowl in remaining 2 odis and we should pick bowler in test match based on how much help the can extract from tracks ..maybe its not ideal thing to do but with no prior experience or many tour matches its the only option bit off topic i think but i found this interesting that bhuvi never picked 5 wicket hauls in a tours at best he picked 2 or 3 wickets (just like majority of his odi and test career ) while shami in same matches took many top order wickets and took 2-3 4 wicket hauls in a tours and pandey too picked more number of wickets in single innings .

[express bowling]

If you are putting stats, pls make sure you put all the right stats in and set the right context. 1) Bhuvi played only the Aus and WI series which is in India, and there were hardly any 2nd new balls taken as our spinners mopped up the wickets before that, so its no more than 11 innings with new ball and that too in Indian dust bowls. 2) Bhuvi was bowled 624 balls in those 11 innings which is roughly 9.5 overs per innings (even less than an ODI quota). 3) Also in those matches when he was given an extended opening spell he managed to pick 3 wickets two times. The rest of the wickets were all mostly taken by spinners. 4) Shami had a freak Kolkata match where it reverse swung for him, I admit Bhuvi is not the strongest exponent of reverse swing but in 2nd WI match Bhuvi and Shami were equally of limited effectiveness. So it is not that Bhuvi has been as bad as all are portraying, but he defenitely has scope for improvement. He is right now behind Shami and possibly an in-form Yadav in the pecking order. Only when he and Shami play both overseas for a couple of tours and in India can we form an opinion.

Second new ball has not been taken in any of the 11 innings Bhuvi bowled ! I seriously doubt it. Even if you consider 12 new balls , 9 wickets with 12 new balls used does not make one a wicket taker with new balls. It is not a question of calling him bad. He is not. But he has not yet been the great wicket taker with the new ball that people think he is. That is all I an pointing out. For him to be an obvious choice over Umesh, he must be clearly better but his stats don't show that. Regarding playing only in India, we are considering the performances of other good Indian pacers in India . It is not as if we are comparing Bhuvi's performance with a SAF pacer bowling in his country. Getting reverse swing in India is quite common on many grounds. Further, Shami used seam movement and pace to take quite a few wickets, not all were because of reverse swing. So, no point calling Shami's first test a freak performance. This discussion about stats is in the context of preferring Bhuvi over another wicket taking pacer based on his impressive wicket taking already, especially with the new ball . It has no bearing on what he might do in the long run, if he improves.

[Old guy]

Second new ball has not been taken in any of the 11 innings Bhuvi bowled ! I seriously doubt it. Even if you consider 12 new balls , 9 wickets with 12 new balls used does not make one a wicket taker with new balls. It is not a question of calling him bad. He is not. But he has not yet been the great wicket taker with the new ball that people think he is. That is all I an pointing out. For him to be an obvious choice over Umesh, he must be clearly better but his stats don't show that. Regarding playing only in India, we are considering the performances of other good Indian pacers in India . It is not as if we are comparing Bhuvi's performance with a SAF pacer bowling in his country. This discussion about stats is in the context of preferring Bhuvi over another wicket taking pacer based on his impressive wicket taking already, especially with the new ball . It has no bearing on what he might do in the long run, if he improves.

i do not get bhuvi obsession here. not gonna name any one but before series he was suppose to match philander or be our philander:winky: .. problem with him is he does not even hits the right length and pace was never special and swing happens but from hand not late in air or from pitch. why not just play yadav and see what he does.. he cannot do worse than mohit and he might just get in rhythm before tests

[ExpressPace]

i think problem is with fans not understanding this simple thing and setting bar too low in india and too high in south africa. just because some one is coming to bowl in south africa does not means he will magically start picking tons of wickets.. it does not works like that..maybe steyn and philander have made it look like that but they are very highly skilled and extract lot of movement from tracks where juniad khan who swung so much in india did nothing in south africa..

Junaid took 4 wickets in two Odis that he played in recently concluded series in SA at an eco rate below 5 unlike you phaastest bowler Shami kabab who took cheap wickets in pp overs with eco rate of 6+ :finger:

[Old guy]

[ExpressPace]

[Old guy]

[express bowling]

i do not get bhuvi obsession here. not gonna name any one but before series he was suppose to match philander or be our philander:winky: .. problem with him is he does not even hits the right length and pace was never special and swing happens but from hand not late in air or from pitch. why not just play yadav and see what he does.. he cannot do worse than mohit and he might just get in rhythm before tests

All true. I think people remember Bhuvi's wickets more because many of his dismissals are artistic. Similarly, fans tend to forget dismissals by Umesh, Mohit etc. which are more workman like. One of my biggest worries about including Bhuvi in tests is his yet unproven ability with anything that slightly resembles a non new ball. In this tour, spinners won't bail us out with the old ball. In case Bhuvi looks ordinary after 5 overs or so then it will be over usage of Shami and an old Zak, returning from injury. His accuracy has not really been as good as is required by a medium pacer and that is a concern. His bowling should be watched carefully in the practice match to form an objective opinion about SAF tests.

[Old guy]

All true. I think people remember Bhuvi's wickets more because many of his dismissals are artistic. Similarly, fans tend to forget dismissals by Umesh, Mohit etc. which are more workman like. One of my biggest worries about including Bhuvi in tests is his yet unproven ability with anything that slightly resembles a non new ball. In this tour, spinners won't bail us out with the old ball. In case Bhuvi looks ordinary after 5 overs or so then it will be over usage of Shami and an old Zak, returning from injury. His accuracy has not really been as good as is required by a medium pacer and that is a concern. His bowling should be watched carefully in the practice match to form an objective opinion about SAF tests.

i do not see how mohit will get another game just play yadav that will allow shami to open with new ball too and will give us 2 guys who can bowl after 20 overs